FORGE factory day
The rev, who is a regular signpost commenter is running a workshop on sharing your faith.
Dear Friends,
If you are interested in a very practical, insightful worshop on sharing your faith in this western, increasingly post modern culture, please join us this Saturday June 3rd at The Red network’s building (South Melbourne church of Christ) on Dorcas st in South Melbourne from 10:00 am til 2:30 pm. There will be imput from some effective evangelists from different parts of Melbourne sharing with you the hows, whats and wheres of sharing your faith today.The cost is only $25.00 and will include a simple lunch.
If you have any questions please email me at johnj@forge.org.au
the rev
Check it out here
May 31st, 2006 at 4:25 pm
ok, maybe I’m being painful today, but doesn’t it ever strike you as sad that (a) Christians need lessons on how to share their faith; and (b) Christians need to be told how to do that in culturally appropriate ways?
Seriously, I so often want to just get up at these things and say “hey everybody, you know how to share you faith effectively? Be NORMAL. Go to the pub. Have a beer. Chat about the OC. Talk about your bust-up with your ex and how it’s making it hard to be at church, or how your housemate is bugging you because she reckons it’s important for Christians not to leave the central heating on unless it’s absolutely necessary…” Heh.
This is no dig at this workshop by the way. It just kinda reminded me how dumb and out of touch and living-in-our-Christian-bubble most of us are…
June 1st, 2006 at 6:21 am
man, you try to change the conversation, but nooooo, everyone wants to talk about homosexuality.
June 1st, 2006 at 9:21 am
I agree with you bec…I’m just hopoing that someone at forge comes up with a program we can attend in sharing our faith with homiosexoooaals. - back to homosexuality inside of 3 posts! Well done everyone…drinks after work on Dan and Phil!
June 1st, 2006 at 11:11 am
ROFLMAO
June 1st, 2006 at 11:26 am
I agree Bec, the first thing we need to recognize is that living in a church cocoon makes sharing impossible. Also the current church as culture thing makes it increasingly hard for people to relate to those outside their culture. And part of what we are doing with this workshop is helping people to unlearn a lot of the stupid stuff they have learned in the past.
the rev
June 1st, 2006 at 11:52 am
I ahve tried and tried but I can not get a real smiley face to show up on my posts - hoiw on earth is everyone doing it? =:{(}
June 1st, 2006 at 12:00 pm
June 1st, 2006 at 12:03 pm
you know I am a bit disappointed with your comments bec. The fact is most people don’t do the things you are talking about. They are scared to share their faith because they think it means doing what Billy Graham, or the nut at Flinders Station is doing. And many use the just invite them to church stategy. Most don’t actually develope relationships. If they aren’t doing it, then someone needs to tell them how to do it, and then tell them to do it.
the rev
June 1st, 2006 at 12:16 pm
Can you explain why I’m disappointed in my comment?
I said I wasn’t criticising this workshop, but more the fact that we *need* these workshops.
June 1st, 2006 at 12:19 pm
Though, I sometimes think the best way to ‘teach’ Christians to share their faith might be to take them to the pub (one on one, or in small groups), rather than get them all in a room and talk theory.
I don’t think you can be told how to develop relationships. You have to learn it by doing.
I also disagree that most Christians are scared to share their faith. The vast majority of my friends at uni where very upfront about it. The problem was the method, not their courage. ie. When a mate who’s had a few drinks too many asks you at a uni ball whether you think they’re going to hell because they don’t believe in Jesus, I don’t reckon that “Yes” is the best way of engaging with that question…LOL. Similarly, when people ask you why you don’t have sex, or why you don’t drink, I don’t think that smiling smugly and saying “oh, because I’m a Christian” is the best way to answer that either!!
June 1st, 2006 at 12:23 pm
Well, I didn’t think you were disappointed.
Well you said in the first sentence that you were just being painful today.
You also said you wanted to stand up at one of these events and say “hey everybody, you know how to share you faith effectively? Be NORMAL. Go to the pub. Have a beer. Chat about the OC. Talk about your bust-up with your ex and how it’s making it hard to be at church, or how your housemate is bugging you because she reckons it’s important for Christians not to leave the central heating on unless it’s absolutely necessary…”
Which suggests that there really isn’t a need for this, and if there is you could do a better job at presenting, and it would only take you about thirty seconds to set everyone right.
So maybe I am just being painful today, I do have a migrane, and I am feeling pretty shithouse. And it took me two hours to buy my ashes tickets. But I think if you wrote about a seminar you were having on how to pray using appropriate non gender specific language, my comment would be a bit more supportive, and encouraging.
the rev
June 1st, 2006 at 12:29 pm
hey bec, do you think we should run that prayer workshop Rev’s talking about?
June 1st, 2006 at 12:49 pm
Cheryl, why not?
Rev - oops - I meant why YOU’RE disappointed…
I repeat, I was not criticising the workshop, but rather the fact that there’s any need for it. Far out - you’ve said on this board that you can deal with staunch debate, but here I am, just suggesting that the existence of a workshop points to an ongoing problem (which, I assume, is exactly WHY you’re runinng the workshop!), and you jump down my throat. I never suggested I could do a better job, so that’s just a snide comment.
But seriously - I do think it’s better to take people out and *do* this stuff rather than constantly talk about it. People learn by doing, not just by talking.
And for the record, yes I do endeavour to do this in my own life, whether it’s faith-based stuff or professional stuff. I’m constantly trying to build better links between academics and practitioners.
June 1st, 2006 at 1:20 pm
I didn’t jump down your throat, I said I was disappointed in your post.
I know you do this Bec, never would imply that you didn’t. This seminar isn’t meant for you though I suppose you would even learn a few things from some of the presenters, I am sure I will.
And can you explain to me why dealing with staunch debate does not include me saying I don’t like something? Are you suggesting that dealing with staunch debate means I am supposed to say, “oh you’re right, sorry”?
Like I said, if you posted a notice for your seminar, I wouldn’t choose that thread to engage in a debate, but would say something along the lines of…
Bec in an incredibly inteligent and engaging young woman, with a dynamic faith. I am sure you would get a lot out of this seminar, and I for one will be trying to attend.
Can you explain what your first sentence meant if you didn’t know it was a bit contrary to post that on this thread?
And for the record, I am in a lot of pain right now, so even though I do not mean to be “jumping down your throat” nor do I feel that I have done so, I am sorry if I have offended you.
the rev
June 1st, 2006 at 1:21 pm
I bet you thougt people would wish you luck with the workshop and ask if there was anyway of getting mates rates hus rev? This simple lunch you speak of…will it taste like chicken? If you can’t throw some Brazilian Jiu Jitsu on the barbie I’d be partial to a bowl of Mui Thai!
In all seriousness though I actually don’t agree with you bec (I only said I did for the sake of the joke…and to help you with your self esteem). You’ve been over on the other thread where we spoke of how the things we say affect people - can you see how your comments here are actually patronising and minimising the work rev has done to pull this thing together?
I think workshops on evangelism and in particular on sharing our faith in this western, increasingly post modern culture are very good and will lead people into feeling confident in building relationships. not everyone actually does feel as compentent as you do bec in sharing their faith. In my experience most christians would benefit from this workshop (or at least from the look of it anyway)
now…back to the menu…will their be icecream?
June 1st, 2006 at 1:27 pm
There will be nothing on the menu that a tanned body conscious Sydney dig me would like.
the rev
June 1st, 2006 at 2:17 pm
Well I seriously and sincerely apologise if my comments here are patronising and minimising the work the Rev has done. If he doesn’t k now by now that I respect him then I’m not sure what else I can do.
In my first post I said I wasn’t critical of the workshop per se but the fact that there was any demand for it. Don’t manipulate what I’ve said.
In all seriousness, I *do* think this an issue that should be addressed. The emerging church supposedly has a critique of institutionalism, yet it’s starting to look increasingly institutionalised to me. Not that there’s anything wrong with that…it’s just something I’ve thought about, and I know others have to.
Come on - we lay into Hillsong right left and centre, and then I say that it’s sad that there’s a need for a workshop on how to share your faith, and suddenly people are up in arms, saying that I’m criticising the Rev…what the? Maybe Homer has a point…
Oh, and thanks for coming to my aid Greg…weak, fragile little thing that I am…
June 1st, 2006 at 2:25 pm
Sorry Rev, only just saw your post at #14…
For heaven’s sake, I gave you space in our mag and I’d do it again, and we’ve had good chats in person. What does a person have to do to show their support for you? I’m truly sorry you’re feeling the pinch right now (virtual hugs thru cyberspace for you!). I hope your workshop goes well.
I’m sorry I commenced my post like that. I take it for granted that you and other people know I respect you and should have put another sentence in there to make sure.
You’re allowed to disagree with me. The thing is, you got personal, made snide remarks, and distorted what I said. I don’t like it when Lance does that, I don’t like it when Homer does that, and I don’t like it when you or Greg do that.
You know what? I might hear different perspectives and stories from the presenters, and in that sense I would learn from them. But would I learn of new ways to share my faith? No. And that has nothing to do with the skill or otherwise of the presenters. It has everything to do with the fact that I seek to live my life as an authentic, honest, open person, and I engage in all my relationships and conversations that way.
Last year there was a conversation on Darren Rowse’s blog about the question, “would you still be friends with someone if you knew they’d never convert?”
Now, this is no dig at Darren or the people that posted on that blog, but to be honest, I honestly can’t even comprehend where that question comes from. It’s just totally outside my worldview and experience.
June 1st, 2006 at 2:28 pm
I meant to add another sentence in there -
It has everything to do with the fact that I seek to live my life as an authentic, honest, open person, and I engage in all my relationships and conversations that way. I don’t want that to change. I don’t want to ever be sitting there chatting to people, with the “what do I say now?” cogs wirring away…at least anymore than they would when I’m talking to any friend about any difficult issue…that’s why I wonder about these sort of workshops, I wonder whether in running them we’re just perpetuating the Christian bubble.
Oh, and this weekend I’m off to the Zadok conference. So I’ll be spending my weekend in the Christian bubble. Just to let you all know that I don’t reflect on my own actions as well.
June 1st, 2006 at 2:32 pm
So what are you saying Bec? That to have a practical workshop on how to share your faith, based around three or four people that have had much practice and some success doing it is some how being institutional?
And I never thought you were being critical of me, never said that. Nor did I jump down your throat. I did think your comment wasn’t very encouraging to me, the host of the seminar, nor to people who might think they could benefit from it. And like I said before, if you were promoting a seminar I would help promote it rather than use it as a platform to critique the church.
I am sorry I said anything, next time I will keep my mild dissapointment to myself.
the rev
June 1st, 2006 at 2:37 pm
Oh and my pain is from a migrane I mentioned that above, it kept me up all night and is hurting me now.
I went back and read my posts, I don’t see one snide comment from me, if you can post one that appeared snide I really didn’t mean to and will apologize right away. And I don’t see how I got personal. And I simply told you what your post suggested to me. Can you see how it could be taken that way?
And I do agree it is sad we need these things.
the rev
June 1st, 2006 at 2:38 pm
Rev, I’ve said I’m sorry twice already.
ALL: If you think you’d benefit from this seminar, then you should definitely go. I am sure it will be good. Then go out dancing afterwards - buy a drink and have a conversation with someone you don’t know.
June 1st, 2006 at 2:42 pm
actually, I see these kinds of workshops as a chance for people to detox from a lot of the stuff that churches teach as evangelism. I see people in my own church who are paralysed by all the shoulds and oughts that get attached to the dreaded e-word, thinking that they’ve got to produce a whole apologetic with ever point attached to 5 verses of Romans every time they speak to a non-christian. then they spend their time asking for prayer that they will have the courage to “speak” to x, or bemoaning that it doesn’t work. Talk about unnecessary burdens that stop the people of God from functioning!
June 1st, 2006 at 2:47 pm
I read #11 as being snide.
I know you have a migraine, I read that. I get them too, so the hug was serious. Only clearly I *am* smarter than you, because when I have migraines I draw the curtains and crawl into bed, I don’t sit in front of the glary screen of a computer.
June 1st, 2006 at 3:38 pm
Bec,
I tried to sleep, but I just couldn’t, even with the codeine.
I seriously meant nothing snide in that post, you asked why I felt disappointed and I showed you why.
As to your apology, I never thought you were patronizing, or disrespecting me, so no apology neccesary. I read your first post a bit wrong, but I think you set me up with that first sentence, (not intentionally ofcourse). And I still would have prefered if you wrote 22 instead of #1.
the rev
June 1st, 2006 at 3:58 pm
I agree with Bec that it is sad that christians need this kind of assistance- for example I don’t know of anyone who needs assistance sharing their love of sci-fi, computers, baseball, etc and so forth- yet when it comes to sharing faith, many people clearly do need assistance. I didn’t really see a conflict between what Bec’s said and what Rev’s said.
I’m happy to tell people what I believe if it comes up, but I must admit, I don’t actively try to ‘convert’ people. Would you argue that that is what sharing faith is about? Or is it just letting people know that you have faith, and if they want to ask you about it, that’s up to them.
June 1st, 2006 at 4:07 pm
Rev, you know I was just joking about the sleeping, right?
But seriously *puts on motherly face* should you be sitting in front of the computer? I know that if I had a migraine and tried to, I’d be likely to throw up all over it…
Oh how I wish I hadn’t thought of that…
June 1st, 2006 at 4:11 pm
Well I am starting to feel better now, but I had no choice for a while, four men were depending on me to get the ashes tickets purchased.
Laura,
yes there isn’t anything different between what Bec and I have said, I guess I just thought the discussion was a bit distracting, and wasn’t very encouraging for the seminar. As to the idea of people converting, yes I do believe we should be about making new disciples of Jesus, and extending the kingdom of God as much as we are able. When I am talking about sharing faith, it is with this end in mind.
the rev
June 1st, 2006 at 4:30 pm
Blestpickle said: actually, I see these kinds of workshops as a chance for people to detox from a lot of the stuff that churches teach as evangelism.
I totally concur. And I can’t imagine anyone more apt than the rev to be the one to undo the damage.
I did an evangelism course at Bible College in about 1998 and I’m so glad I did it. I wasn’t looking forward to it. I have NEVER ‘enjoyed’ or felt comfortable with evangelism (even though I fervently believe people need Christ). But, the course was a breath of fresh air. (We even watched a Simpsons episode!) It did exactly what blestpickle said and undid the damage those other training courses had done.
One of the things I found most helpful was a scale from -10 to 1 (and over). The idea was that -10 was where a person had no conception that any “higher power” existed. -9 they had an inkling of a higher power, but not that a personal God loved them. And so on. Right toward -2 or thereabouts where they had a belief in Jesus but weren’t willing to give up lordship of their own life, -1 they wanted to know God as Lord and Saviour but just hadn’t taken the step….. *drum roll*
The concept was, wherever on that scale we met and were in relationship with that person, evangelism was about meeting them where they were at and pointing them toward Jesus. So, it wasn’t just about the instant of getting them “over the line” and praying the sinners’ prayer.
It was also about recognising that, even before we open our mouths, God is at work in people. He does the work of salvation. We are just cooperating (hopefully) with Him. This takes all the pressure off! Even if I stuff it up, God can draw the person to Himself, because His love is pursuing them.
June 1st, 2006 at 4:47 pm
Greater love hath no man than he line up for Ashes tickets with a migrane for his friends.