FORGE factory day
The rev, who is a regular signpost commenter is running a workshop on sharing your faith.
Dear Friends,
If you are interested in a very practical, insightful worshop on sharing your faith in this western, increasingly post modern culture, please join us this Saturday June 3rd at The Red network’s building (South Melbourne church of Christ) on Dorcas st in South Melbourne from 10:00 am til 2:30 pm. There will be imput from some effective evangelists from different parts of Melbourne sharing with you the hows, whats and wheres of sharing your faith today.The cost is only $25.00 and will include a simple lunch.
If you have any questions please email me at johnj@forge.org.au
the rev
Check it out here
June 1st, 2006 at 5:17 pm
Janet, I concur - I should wouldn’t have done it!
Ok, the point of my original post: how do we create a culture in which these workshops aren’t actually necessary? In which we don’t need evangelism courses or sharing your faith workshops?
Rev, re: conversion - the point I was trying to make was that a lot of Christians approach people in a very utilitarian kind of way - I’ve heard plenty of people “confess” (they’ve used that word) that they wouldn’t be friends with someone if they were 100% sure they’d never become a Christian. That’s sad, dontcha think? I just can’t imagine Jesus saying “look if you’re never going to follow me, then I think your worthless…”
It’s also really ineffective in terms of evangelism - most people pick up on inauthenticity a mile off. I just don’t see how someone who approaches humanity with such a utilitarian view is ever going to be likely to win people over to their cause - whatever it is.
(That’s not to say God doesn’t work miracles - God does).
June 1st, 2006 at 5:20 pm
Is it possible we need a lot of workshops before we create a culture where workshops are not necessary?
(I just want to practice making smiles.)
June 1st, 2006 at 5:31 pm
well, so long as churches are mis-teaching people
I think we have to be countercultural and undo the damage. If people didn’t have all this pressure heaped on them the moment they become a christian, it wouldn’t be such a big deal, people might actually learn that they could be christians and be real people at one and the same time ..
June 1st, 2006 at 5:42 pm
Janet, the point I was trying to make (obviously badly given the feather’s I’ve managed to ruffle!) was that sometimes we fill our diary with so many workshops and conferences (and I do this!) that we don’t actually do what we’re workshopping.
I suspect that the audience that has MOST to gain from the Rev’s workshop are actually those who are most in danger of doing this.
Consider:
- how many church youth groups meet on Friday or Saturday nights? This has pros, but it also has cons (taking them out of their peer group and placing them in a Christian bubble)
- how many church organisations have board meetings, working bees etc on weekends (of course, there isn’t any other time…but it still adds to the bubble)
- how much time we fill up with church council meetings, members meetings, camps, conferences, band practices…
It’s so easy to fill our life with doing stuff for church - no wonder we need workshops telling us how to talk to people outside the church!
June 1st, 2006 at 5:57 pm
Yes you are right, and that is one of the things I am going to talk about this weekend.
the rev
June 1st, 2006 at 7:01 pm
I was half tongue in cheek Bec… I do agree with you. But I think it’s true that some of us need to “detox” from being “taught evangelism” in ways that have been inappropriate.
June 1st, 2006 at 11:13 pm
and i have no doubt you’ll do a kick-arse job rev (that’s my culturally appropriate language)
June 2nd, 2006 at 4:59 am
GOOD LUCK with the workshop, Rev - I hope it turns out to be succesful - in terms of both bringing down toxicity-levels and bringing uo levels of reality in all involved. About the migrane: someone recently told me that he believed pain was our body reminding us to be “present with ourselves”, in the present, as that is where God will always meet with us, not running ahead to the future or dwelling in the past. It helped me a lot, and took off some anxiety in the process - I hope that you will find peace in the middle of preparing!
June 2nd, 2006 at 10:00 am
“It was also about recognising that, even before we open our mouths, God is at work in people. He does the work of salvation. We are just cooperating (hopefully) with Him. This takes all the pressure off! Even if I stuff it up, God can draw the person to Himself, because His love is pursuing them.”
I related to this comment a lot. I am very uncomfortable with the idea of “sharing faith”. I know how it makes me feel when someone is trying to sell me something or convert me to something. Much like when a good friend used our friendship to try to network me into Amway! I was happy to listen to her talk about how she was going to get rich, but became defensive when she tried to get me to join the network. My point is, I know she was being genuine and cared about me anyway, but I still hated it. On the other hand, had I quietly witnessed her happiness, growing wealth, etc, I would have been much more open to it. It didn’t happen, of course.
People become just as defensive about religion- or more. So I would rather “do unto others…” you know the rest. I don’t live in a christian bubble, quite the opposite, but my friends are interested rather than defensive, when I do talk about God, church, or whatever, because I’m not trying to convert them. Even the atheists and wiccans.
June 2nd, 2006 at 10:32 am
but aren’t you trying to convert them, just using a more seductive tact?
the rev
June 2nd, 2006 at 10:47 am
Great post Laura.
The only time I’ve ever “witnessed” to people was when I was trying very hard to fit into a pentecostal uni group (that’s where I learnt that word, “witnessed”, too!) I was terrible at it. Funnily enough, the more I tried, the less I talked about my faith.
Thankfully I’m more comfortable with myself these days, and it invariably just comes up. Everyone at work knows I’m a Christian, and I get the odd dig about it, but it’s all in jest. I’m much more comfortable hanging out with “non-christians” than with “christians” - I’m way more comfortable at a peace rally, an “activist training camp” or an academic conference than I am at many church gatherings. I tend to connect better with non-Christian women - the women I connect best with are often into earthy expressions of spirituality. My boyfriend and I have lots of “Christian” friends, but they’re all similar to us - committed Christians, but not very interested in church. We’re all known to be Christians, and it just naturally comes up in conversation with people.
Actually, I generally find it easier to express my spirituality to and among my “non-Christian” friends than my “Christian” friends. I can’t ever seem to “fit in” to the vocab, the rules, etc among Christians, yet among my non-Christian friends I have the freedom to authentically explore who I am and who God is.
Man I’m rambling…
June 2nd, 2006 at 10:50 am
ha - you posted while I was Rev.
I think Laura and I are saying (correct me if you’re not, Laura) that we don’t “try” to do anything other than be who we are. I am just doing my thing, and because I have friends, and I chat to them, and they care about me and am interested in my life and my views on things, these things come up. So when my friend asked me how I cope, how I continue to hope regarding social change, I talked to her about how I look for the little things, the little gains, and how my work with Urban Seed gives me hope because I see lives changed…and then we ended up talking about how they’re a cool bunch of people…and my spirituality and her spirituality was all jumbled up in that…
June 2nd, 2006 at 11:08 am
but you do hope they convert right?
June 2nd, 2006 at 11:19 am
Back again.
No, I’m honestly not trying to convert them. If they made that decision for themselves though, I would obviously support and encourage them. Some of them have clearly adopted a more accepting attitude to christians because their contact with me made them aware that not all christians are self-righteous, judgemental, conservative, wankers, which is what they had formerly believed.
I am married to an atheist, and it works because we both support each other’s right to believe what we choose, as well as to express our ideas to each other. Ideologically, morally and ethically, I consider his views and actions to be more ‘christian spirited’ than many christians I’ve met.
June 2nd, 2006 at 12:13 pm
Again, I feel as Laura does.
I often feel that my non-Christian friends are more “saved” than my Chrisitan ones. Seriously, my non-Christian friends who are actively involved in working for justice are often far more fulfilled, engaged, free, joyful etc etc than many of my Christian friends. My non-Christian friends are often living in a more Christ-like way (I think) than my Christian friends are.
I really struggle with the concept of people going to heaven just because they believe in Jesus and going to hell just because they don’t. My beliefs are far more nuanced than that - I think that Jesus is the Way, because he shows us the Way to freedom. I just can’t - and I deliberately use the word “can’t” instead of “don’t” - believe that salvation is as simple as praying the Sinners Prayer. That’s probably why I don’t feel any need to convert people. I’m not sure.
This is something I’ve thought about a lot - I’m not sure whether it’s ok or not for Christians to feel the way I do. I’m not interested in a theological debate here - I’m not expressing a theological viewpoing but a feeling, and I will continue to wrestle with this issue, probably ’til I die.
June 2nd, 2006 at 1:02 pm
yes, yes, yes, Bec and Laura.
June 2nd, 2006 at 1:14 pm
I feel that no matter how “christlike” they may be (Gandhi for instance) they would still be empowered, and encouraged by a relationship with Christ, regardless of eternal destination. If Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, then growing closer to Him should be the goal. So though I might not believe in a conversion in the old sense of the word (altar call, sinners prayer, baptism) I do believe in a ordering your life, not just after good principles, but the Prince of Peace, Jesus is more than the embodiment of good ideas and values, He is our example, our Lord, and our saviour.
the rev
June 2nd, 2006 at 2:13 pm
Yeah, that’s basically what I was trying to say, Rev.
I’ve only got one friend who says that Jesus wasn’t cool - and he denies Jesus existed at ALL (which is just plain dumb in terms of historical evidence, but anyway…) Most of them actually do see Jesus, among others, as the people they admire most. I know you’re saying more than that, but if I step outside my christian box for a moment and am truly honest, I have to say that Nelson Mandela often seems an awful lot more “real” and therefore easier to “follow” than Christ does. In my lowest moments, the Gospels seem to be something like the stories of Robin Hood.
Don’t get me wrong - Jesus means an immense amount to me, and I have no interest in anything other than a rather orthodox Christian spirituality. However my commitment to following Christ, and my belief that he is God, is very much grounded in the mystical rather than the rational!!
June 2nd, 2006 at 2:17 pm
Yes, and I believe we neglect the mystical in our sharing sometimes. I do believe prayer works, as well as the spiritual gifts.
the rev
June 2nd, 2006 at 2:23 pm
“I really struggle with the concept of people going to heaven just because they believe in Jesus and going to hell just because they don’t.”
I strongly relate to what Bec said here. To me the idea of telling people, or even being positive, that because I believe in Jesus, that they must be wrong and going to hell, is paternalistic at best and at worst seems like the mission of ‘civilising the savages’. If people like what I’ve got, I’m happy to tell them about it. I really feel ambivalent about mission.
Does faith have to imply that what is believed in is absolutely true and factual? Cos I’m pretty sure there is a lot I don’t know and don’t completely understand. And if you know for sure, then you don’t need faith, right?
Or not? I’m confused now.
June 2nd, 2006 at 2:25 pm
And thats what makes us different to Muslims or any other religion who honor and acknowledge Jesus as a prophet. Good call rev
June 2nd, 2006 at 2:29 pm
“Jesus is more than the embodiment of good ideas and values, He is our example, our Lord, and our saviour.
And thats what makes us different to Muslims or any other religion who honor and acknowledge Jesus as a prophet. Good call rev”
I believe both of these statements. But I don’t think this necessarily makes Muslims wrong. Maybe they are just seeing a different truth.
June 2nd, 2006 at 2:40 pm
and it depends how we understand terms like Lord and Saviour
June 2nd, 2006 at 2:45 pm
I agree - I didn;t say they were wrong - in fact on many other threads(well ok, one) I have said that their faith is as relevant and valid as mine. However…the question that I ask myself is…”How does denying the deity of Jesus, His Lordship and his ’son-of-Godedness’ affect our relationship with God?
I believe that the God Muslims worship is the same God as we worship
June 2nd, 2006 at 3:19 pm
“Maybe they are just seeing a different truth.”
“I agree - I didn;t say they were wrong - in fact on many other threads(well ok, one) I have said that their faith is as relevant and valid as mine. However…the question that I ask myself is…”How does denying the deity of Jesus, His Lordship and his ’son-of-Godedness’ affect our relationship with God?
I believe that the God Muslims worship is the same God as we worship”
I agree with all of this - in the sense that I ask that question, and it remains a question.
I think maybe a lot of my friends are “seeing a different truth” - I don’t actually think that they’re heading in the wrong direction. And I don’t really know what I mean when I say that Jesus is my Lord and Saviour…I tend to explain to some friends (who are into meditating in ashrams n stuff) that he’s something like my “guru”, to others that I think he’s the best person that ever lived, and to all I say that I think he was the embodiment of God. The guru thing makes for some really interesting conversations…I’ve got friends that have gurus and they genuinely believe those people are perfect. Which I find weird. I find it easier to believe that Christ was perfect, probably because if we’re honest, who he is to each of us is largely a product of our imaginations…
June 2nd, 2006 at 3:20 pm
Hey Rev, can we get a synopsis after the workshop?
June 2nd, 2006 at 5:39 pm
Wow. Lots of challenging stuff here.
I struggle to pinpoint right where I fit. I’m confident that my Western, Irish-Australian, Catholic-turned-protestant, evangelical 20th-turned 21st century concept of God is waaaay too small.
eg. God isn’t male. He’s more than male. I’m made in His image too. But, Jesus was/is male. I continue to use male language in reference to God, because there’s plenty of Biblical support for it. But, I’m conscious that the Bible was spoken into particular cultures and that the choice of male language may have been God’s choice to communicate most clearly to those people.
Anyway. So, I know my concept of God is too small. Which means I can’t be dogmatic about how He has revealed Himself to others. But, Jesus is God’s clearest revelation of Himself, so how people respond or don’t to Jesus is pretty key.
Bec says ‘I find it easier to believe that Christ was perfect, probably because if we’re honest, who he is to each of us is largely a product of our imaginations’
Naturally, all of us have understandings of God that are in part the product of our imaginations. But, our culture would go further and say that God is only what He means to each of us. That He has no other independent, intrinisic existence. I don’t believe that. So, I believe I must submit my imagination to God and His revelation. I pray that my knowledge/understanding of God will be more and more based on who He actually is, not who I want Him to be (idolatry).
I guess, with that approach in mind, I struggle to know what to do with people who express their spirituality as being outside the usual Christian constructs. I trust that God is at work in them, revealing Himself to them, and that they are somewhere on that scale I mentioned.
But, as rev said, although my methodology might be vastly different to the old days, my hope and prayer for my friends is that they will come to know Jesus as Lord and Saviour.
June 2nd, 2006 at 7:28 pm
so in all of your relativistic concepts of God and faith and Jesus, where does,
Matt. 28: 18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
come in? Seems pretty clear that we are supposed to make disciples to me.
the rev
June 2nd, 2006 at 9:20 pm
rev,
I suppose what I haven’t done (it seems) is communicate that I don’t accept the full expression of relativism that is usually foreshadowed by the words “to me”. Ultimately, I do believe in my duty to the Great Commission and that relationship with Jesus as Lord and Saviour is the key to life.
June 3rd, 2006 at 12:51 am
Sorry to but in…
I find myself siding with bec, a bit..I saw a fantastic doco, on the abrahamic faiths, ( yes the big Three!) in which a Catholic big shot at the vatican was quoted as saying ( decreeeing) that Christians shouldnt try to convert Muslims.
I wonder why its always the Apostolic personalities that seem to insist on the centrality of the great commision, and the urgency of disciple making? I couldnt disciple my way out of a paper bag. ( as history reveals) Why does this automatically undermine the credibility of my faith? there are many parts to the body Rev… I used to believe there was something wrong with me… maybe there is, but if so, its up to God to change this.. I sure as hell cant do it.