FORGE factory day
The rev, who is a regular signpost commenter is running a workshop on sharing your faith.
Dear Friends,
If you are interested in a very practical, insightful worshop on sharing your faith in this western, increasingly post modern culture, please join us this Saturday June 3rd at The Red network’s building (South Melbourne church of Christ) on Dorcas st in South Melbourne from 10:00 am til 2:30 pm. There will be imput from some effective evangelists from different parts of Melbourne sharing with you the hows, whats and wheres of sharing your faith today.The cost is only $25.00 and will include a simple lunch.
If you have any questions please email me at johnj@forge.org.au
the rev
Check it out here
June 3rd, 2006 at 12:57 am
Urban, may I ask, what then do you do with that scripture rev quoted?
June 3rd, 2006 at 4:52 am
I guess, with that approach in mind, I struggle to know what to do with people who express their spirituality as being outside the usual Christian constructs
I sometimes find myself struggling to detach my spirituality from the constructs of culture, Christian/western/scientific, all the influences that I realize make up a huge portion of who I am (or at least how I express being me), to myself as well as to others. Not to stay detached, but to try to understand how what I believe to be true would look like, had my “culture” been different. But then again, the cultural connection is what made the word flesh to begin with, so I suppose it doesn’t have to be bad to be “culturally afllicted”- or hopefully isn’t as bad if only you’re aware of it?? As for other spiritual seekers, I suppose some are heading in the right direction, some are not… maybe the old “know them by their fruits”-principle applies here also?
June 3rd, 2006 at 6:50 am
Urban #60 is consistent with Matt 28:16-18 “Then the ELEVEN disciples went to Galilee to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshipped him, but some doubted. The Jesus came to them (to the ELEVEN, not to the hundreds to which he had appeared after His death or even to the smaller number that were in the Upper Room, Acts 1) and said, ‘All authority …”
I probably read this Scripture a hundred times and heard at least as many sermons on it before ever noticing that the Great Commission was not given to every believer, but just to the eleven. Jesus instructed a select group to go to an appointed place for the select purpose of issuing the Great Commission. Now sure Christ may send others as well as the eleven - thousands upon thousands if he wishes, but that’s not my point.
We’re not all called to “make disciples”, and as well-intentioned those may be that teach that every believer is called to “make disciples” … they have, IMO, misinterpreted Scripture.
Urban is spot on! there are many parts of the body
June 3rd, 2006 at 8:02 am
So we are not all called to be like Jesus? I don’t buy it. The reason it is so uncomfortable for some is not that they are not gifted, but rather, they see it as a weird thing, divorced from their own personality. The reason this is, is because the church has made it a weird thing, and also created a cult of personality that only certain types do this.
The fact is, disciple making is a relatively natural, and simple thing. Much like Bec shared earlier it is living life with others, and sharing yourself. If Christ truly lives in you, then sharing yourself is in some way sharing Christ.
Urban, can you explain to me, how once in our entire relationship I have ever even hinted that the great commision was the center of our faith? No ofcourse you cannot, because I have never even thought it before. I believe it is an important part, but following Jesus, loving our neighbor, bringing the kingdom, is the center of our faith. The great commision is a very natural by product.
the rev
June 3rd, 2006 at 8:42 am
“So we are not all called to be like Jesus?”
It depends upon how you define “LIKE”.
Let’s face it, how many of us are called not to get married, not to have to provide for or raise kids of our own, not to have to work to 65 and to quit work and walk around the countryside for thre years and then die at 33.
It’s hard to be ‘like’ Jesus when you have to pay for kids, education, your retirement and front up to work each day.
June 3rd, 2006 at 9:11 am
On reflection, i wonder whether the matter of sharing our faith may be more relevantly outlined in Scriptures other than Matt 28. For example, in Luke 24:36f we read of Jesus’ instructions to a wider group of believers. This is taken up in Acts 1:8 where Jesus speaks to the larger group, “… But you will receive power (energising power, not explosive power) when the Holy Spirit comes on you and you will be my witnessess …”
Rev, when i was a young believer i heard this preached as “you gotta go witnessing …” Believing this was what Christ instructed, i went door to door, stopped people in the street … ad in finitum. After studying Greek for a year i revisited a lot of Scriptures, including this one. Ahhhh! What did it say? Just what the NIV translaters said: You shall BE my witnesses. NOT you shall GO witnessing. An important difference that is also consistent with other Scripture, such as, “always be ready to give an answer for the faith …” or from 1Thess 4:1ff “… we instructed you how to live in order to please God … avoid sexual immorality … learn to control (your) own body … no one should wrong a brother or take advantage of him … love all the brothers … (v11-12)
Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands … so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders …”
Rev, im not in any way against those who seek or deliver instruction on means for sharing our faith, very much to the contrary. Just a plea that the Great Commission not be presented in such a way as it brings us under Law! Soon as we gotta do this or gotta do that … LAW! Seems to me that we are called to live pure, loving, humble, quiet, minding our own business kind of lives, always ready to acknowledge our faith in Christ to those that ask …
I am posting this in defense of those who feel under bondage or condemned by the knowledge that they are not motivated to go out and tell others … Quoting Urban again, there are many parts of the body
June 3rd, 2006 at 9:32 am
Hey! Today is the day of your workshop - hope it goes well for all!
June 3rd, 2006 at 9:39 am
As I mentioned earlier, I am happy to share my faith to someone who is interested to hear about it- but I don’t go around trying to convert people. I strongly think they will see right through that “sneaky strategem” very quickly. Moreover, I strongly suspect that there is more than one pathway to God and that I just happen to be on one of them. It strikes me as a pretty big coincidence that cultures all over the world simultaneously but separately arrived at the concept of God (be that an old man with a white beard, the sun, a Goddess mountain), came up with similar creation stories, flood stories also v. common incidentally, combined with an acknowledgement of spirituality and really very similar moral principles. These moral principles also are things that most humans wouldn’t necessarily, naturally aspire to- particularly principles relating to money and sexual and social conduct, looking after others, etc.
And honestly, why wouldn’t “God” reveal him/herself to people everywhere in ways that were easy for them to comprehend, ie. a “kingdom” in places where kings are powerful or a natural force in hunter gatherer communities.
This doesn’t mean I need to go out and try every other form, the one I’m part of has its problems, but I think the example of Jesus makes it valuable and relevant.
June 3rd, 2006 at 9:41 am
Yes… best wishes for it!
I’d be interested in a synopsis too, or tapes / CD’s if available. I think I get the Forge emails, but I seemed to miss this one, and I do need some more notice so I can arrange babysitting (or arrange my husband.) Some of the non-Melbournites on this site might be interested in this too.
June 3rd, 2006 at 10:18 am
I think people react to the word and concept “convert”. I know I do. It has a whole range of bad connations and bad history. For me, I am much more comfortable talking about the transformation process that I believe can be found through Jesus. I am more comfortable talking about the cause of Jesus - the reign of God and inviting people to participate in this.
I know Rev and Forge take this approach and I am sure will be talking about this at the workshop rather than encouraging people to get on soapboxes and see their friends as the next victim in their marketing campaign.
It is about relationships and incarnational mission rather than the old style evangelism of get them to a place where the minister can tell them the gospel so they will convert.
I dont think it is easy to do this as Bec and others have suggested. The idols of our time mean that is easy to dismiss this as a part of our commitment to a kingdom lifestyle and we need the accountability, encouragement and nurture of others that this workshop will provide.
June 3rd, 2006 at 2:12 pm
I mostly agree with you Phil… but I do think there are those rare people around who have a geniune gift of evangelism, with a real knack of helping people “cross the line” into a relationship with God through Jesus. They are often not “the minister”, but ordinary people who are energised by these kinds of conversations.
It’s only a tiny part of the job of making disciples… but it is a vital part… it can be hard to make sense of what the gospel is and who Jesus is without a gifted person to walk us through it.
If the majority of us just lived as Bec suggests, living in relationship with God and others with openness and integrity, it would be easier for the evangelists to do their bit… there would be more souls looking at Christians and saying: “I’d like what they’ve got”, and fewer souls looking at the church and saying: “I don’t want to be like THAT!”
June 3rd, 2006 at 8:33 pm
My point, reverend, was not that you are insisting that disciple making is central,but, that in my experience, stronger( apostolic) personalities seem, note: SEEM to be naturally driven by the desire to make converts, and sometimes, the said stronger personalities can inflict this unwittingly on others…. in my last community, yes, you know which one: we, yes, we, were consistently shamed and berated for not being able to “share our faith” with colleauges etc… If its such a simple and natural thing rev, why do you need a workshop on it, and why do people need to be, “told to do it” ??(#8)
And who said disciple making is the only way we can be called to be like Jesus? What about this, “The world will know you are my DISCIPLES because you love one another.” Well, what a shame, we havent really fullfilled that Great commission, have we?
And purplegraciegirl ( #61) What do you do with the millions upon millions of people who have been crushed, butchered, cut down, enslaved, torn apart in serving those very verses? Have a look at the aboriginal people of this country, 40 year old fellas who cant remember their own name coz their brains been fried with petrol sniffing. Has fullfilling the great commission had anything to do with that? No, of course not, we could never humble ourselves and admit our religions culpability… At least the Catholic Juggernaut is beginning to take its historical culpability seriously… Those who humble themselves, will be exalted..
please understand, it is not my intention to cut down the revs workshop… if it is helpful for people, well and good.. I hope it really is effective helping people in an area which everyone struggles. I did the Forge intensives in an earlier life, and I think its great the way those “Apostolic” personalities are reinvigorating the life of the Church. Its something i know I could never do…
I am sensitive on this issue, coz as i have stated, I have been shamed in the past by “Leaders”… Coz I am ashamed and embarressed by my stupid and insensetive approach to this in the past. I have hurt and damaged people with my idiot naive Christian attitudes that hide behind “chapter and verse” barricades. I want to be like the Jesus who asked samaritan women for a drink at a watering hole… Not the one we have created in our own sinful image… So, sorry if I have offended anyone.
June 3rd, 2006 at 9:07 pm
I’m not offended, Urbanmonk. Thanks for indicating it is a sensitive issue for you. It’s helpful.
I certainly see that many people have committed atrocities in the name of evangelism. I share your anger about that. Given that none of us wants to apply the scripture to justify offending or wounding others, I just ask where that Scripture means, in the context of what you’d already said. But, I totally understand if, in light of the shaming behaviours you’ve experienced before, it’s not a conversation you want to have. But, if you do, I’m listening.
June 3rd, 2006 at 11:58 pm
Urban I never said it was the only way to be like Jesus, but it is one way to be like Jesus. And I believe we are all called to share the hope the lies within us. And I do believe Jesus is not just another path, He is God incarnate.
James we mostly agree. The reason we need these seminars is because of the way these “apostolic” personalities have shamed other people into looking at sharing the faith in such ridiculously foreign and impersonal ways.
In the time today we talked about discipleship as a process in which God leads us into His delight, and evangelism becomes walking with people through this process that we are also on. We talked about how messed up this idea of looking at people as objects is, and how we cannot look at people as potential converts, or its like people searching for one night stands in bars, empty and selfish. We talked about how in a more postmodern culture the messenger’s integrity is judged before the integrity of the message is ever looked at, and how this means we are called to actually share our life, our sin, our struggles, our joys and our relationships with others. We talked about how the gospel isn’t believe this and you go to heaven, but rather God’s rulership coming on earth. Meaning justice, mercy, love, forgiveness, community etc. is the good news. And the crux of our message should be lived, and shared with anyone and everyone whether Christian or not, and this kingdom is good news. And then we talked about how the message of Jesus is seen in all cultures, we just have to put aside our cultural baggage and look for the redemption metaphors all around us.
It was a very good day. I am sorry it took me so long to learn these things in my own life, I did pretty stupid things (like pounding on doors) for too much of my life.
the rev
June 4th, 2006 at 12:32 am
Its always been my desire and intention to share and live what i believe. Particularly after i came to realize that God was the Father to the fatherless, and not the nasty peice of work that i had had been admonished to believe in and obey. Unfortunately, in the past, and sometimes the present…my very efforts themselves have hamstrung me…Partly due to my owm naieviety, and partly due to the residue of Christendom at work in me. Oh! who will save me from this Body of Death? Thank God for Jesus, the friend of sinners like me!
How was the Cave tonite? Good crowd? Did you do little red Rooster?
June 4th, 2006 at 7:49 am
It was really a good night. Small crowd, some amazing muso’s of which I was not one. I get so nervous when I am singing, it is unusual for me to be fearful so I actually like it. I didn’t play little red rooster, I had to cut my set short by a few songs cause we started late and had a few people show up to sing. I think the song that came of best was Everybody Knows by Cohen.
I think people have really made this issue a mess, and that is why I believe these seminars are necessary. And I will do them again, even though we had a fairly low turn out. This weird, opressive thing we have made out of the very natural sharing that it should be, needs to die. And I am committed to helping it die.
the rev
June 4th, 2006 at 1:16 pm
Our home group recently did a series on Evangelism. What I hate about these type of things is the guilt trip. Sometimes it might be self imposed but often it is the atmosphere and wording of such studies. My own opening remark was to the effect that I did not think evangelism should be forced. An evangelistic spirit flows out of our hearts when we are “right’ with God. When one is in this place it is easy. Therefore to carry out the great commission we just need to follow Jesus and love him with all our hearts.
I was spectacularly surprised by the response of my group (I am not a leader). They quite unanimously looked at me like I had said something so theologically out there and then just glossed over what I said and went back to the questions on the sheet of paper at hand. Now what did I say that elicted that response? This is a genuine question I am asking of those reading this thread. I am not trying to be leading here - but - did I get it wrong?
June 4th, 2006 at 2:42 pm
I agree with you GR… I think you know the difference when it is coming naturally and when it is forced. And so do the poor buggers that your trying to drag away to salvation. One builds walls, the other melts them. One is demanding and frought with fear, the other is open and spacious and free and not ticking off theological, or doctrinal boxes, but flowing from a heart conscious of Gods Grace and intimacy. As we develop intimacy with Jesus, and The God of all comfort, this naturally spills over into your relationships, some way, some how. As all monks will tell you : ) I think it is wrong to instruct people in evangelism.
Rev, how do you explain your comments in post #8, in light of what you have just said? If it is wholly natural Why do congregations need to be “told” to share? Are we just lazy sheep? Or are burdens ( sometimes) being loaded up on already frightened shoulders. I am not saying that Mission is not the overarching theme of Gods work in his creation… Well, reconciliation actually. But isnt it the loss of intimacy between people and God that results in missionally barren communities?
Whats the greatest commandment again?
June 4th, 2006 at 2:50 pm
I think people need to be told to share, because in our culture we have relegated sharing to the “professionals” and that makes everything weird. If you were there yesterday you would have seen that there was nothing guilt tripy, or forced about what we were talking about. We were talking about understanding that we were not called to be the light of the building on the corner with the steeple, sitting around with each other trying to create a heaven on earth, but rather called to love our neighbor, to join cricket teams, art collectives, actually engage in the communities of our work place. The idea of sharing Jesus, is sharing your life with others. If Jesus really does live within us, then sharing ourselves is sharing Jesus. We forget that in our systematic follow the script world.
the rev
June 4th, 2006 at 3:07 pm
So we agree then…”The idea of sharing Jesus, is sharing your life with others”
Why do I need a workshop to understand this?
June 4th, 2006 at 3:31 pm
Thanks Urbanmonk and Rev. From my persective I think a workshop that says get out there be involved in life not “churchianity” would be most challenging to most of the churched christians I know.
June 4th, 2006 at 3:43 pm
Another opinion I am requesting. What do you think of just getting involved in non-church secular groups verses the out and out reaching the community programmes that some of the large churches are currently undertaking in the vein of Pastor Gugliamuci of SA. Our church is very gung ho about such things and is undertaking a local high school revamp a la Backyard Blitz style. They have also convinced a number of large government and business organisations to get on board. I realise this takes the conversation away from personal communication to the issue of corporate outreach but I would be interested in your response all the same. Mainly because some might argue it is a easy out - Oh but I do evangelise through my church and thus no need for the personal reflection of why do I find it hard to talk about my relationship with Jesus? Why does it not just overflow into my life? Why can’t I relate outside my own sub-culture of church?
June 4th, 2006 at 4:09 pm
Not exactly sure what you are asking Grace, but I think programs tend to keep people in us or them categories.
Urban, perhaps you don’t need one, doesn’t mean its wrong, or that others don’t need it. And I have never been to a seminar that talked about this from this healthy, relational perspective. Perhaps you are just much smarter than everyone else, and I am just helping them to catch up to you.
the rev
June 4th, 2006 at 4:42 pm
Grace, I think both involvement in purely secular organisations and church community outreaches have their place. My concern with the latter would be to make sure that it is carried out in a way that actually serves the community and whereby people can rub shoulders with the wider community and relate! Otherwise, it can become simply another church activity with no actual outreach.
June 4th, 2006 at 5:46 pm
Hey Grace, your idea sounds singularly wonderful What do you think of just getting involved in non-church secular groups verses the out and out reaching the community … What about joining a tennis group, a hiking group, a knitting group
Would you be interested in elaborating more on your thoughts?
June 4th, 2006 at 6:20 pm
i think what i’ve always reacted against is the idea that we try to build relationships with people so that we can offer them the gospel, rather than simply getting to know people because they are worth getting to know in their own right.
June 4th, 2006 at 6:29 pm
Cheryl, I suppose I have a desire to know non-Christians, for my own benefit as much as theirs. But, that’s at a general level. Whenever it comes down to individuals, I can’t ever think “bewdy, here’s a non-Christian I can befriend”. As you say, people are people and I choose to get to know my friends because of who they are. Which means I won’t drop them if they decline the gospel. Because the point of the relationship isn’t just to ‘convert’ them. If one of my friends does express interest in things spiritual, that’s a bonus for me to be able to share.
June 4th, 2006 at 6:35 pm
Ouch! That one got me right in the jaw! Didnt realise that you could punch below your weight aswell as above.. I must be what, 30 kilos lighter than you?
Who am I to Question someone with your credentials? Im a nobody in nowhere land… I dont even go to Church. Dont even want to.
GR -
I am a big believer in sharing our brokenness with people, rather than trying to convince them that what we “do” and what we “believe” are true. I have tried this approach over and over and it only seems to alienate people.Its when we stand with Humanity in our condition that the way to freedom becomes possible. Fellow pilgrims. ( see the life and writing of HENri Nouwen for more on this) Christ convinced his followers of who he was, finally and ultimately by showing them his wounds. But I probably gravitate to this coz i am wounded in most areas of my humanity.
I have actually found that talking about my faith is more authentic now, coz i no longer have the Church activities to hide behind, like Youth group, bible studies, leadership, etc… All of which i was heavily involved with. In a sense I am more naked than I really care to be. But in other ways, at least Im not hiding as much as I used to. And this leaves my spiritual life less cluttered. Coz my spiritual life now really is about living, not what “ministry” I am “involved with” at “church”
BTW - I am not saying that I find it easy to share my brokeness with people. In fact, I find it incredibly difficult. However, I fear that it is a path that I must walk if I am to to “be like Jesus” as the rev puts it. And i really need help to do this coz I am not one for willingly going forth into humiliation. And yet, this is what Jesus did.
June 4th, 2006 at 6:45 pm
Actually Cheryl, there is a scripture somewhere that says something similar, “always ready to give a reasoned answer for the hope within you …” (sorry, forgot the reference). I really agree with you; treating others with the sort of unconditional acceptance with which we would like them to treat us … our life will reveal who we are and if we are shewing forth the fruit of the Spirit then some may ask us about it! Just a musing …
June 4th, 2006 at 10:27 pm
Phil, can you explain what you mean when you say “The idols of our time mean that is easy to dismiss this as a part of our commitment to a kingdom lifestyle and we need the accountability, encouragement and nurture of others that this workshop will provide.”
I actually don’t understand why we need to be so deliberate about this. I suppose this is in part because I am very much an extrovert - I find it incredibly easy to meet new people, to talk to new people. On Friday night I left work after a conversation with my colleagues about what we were doing for the weekend - they all knew I was going to a conference, and that I had to stop by a $2 shop to buy candles and stones for worship I was organising. The woman in the $2 shop asked me whether I was having a party (because of all the candles) and I said nah, I’m running a service…
None of these conversations were any more “conscious” or “deliberate” than any of the other conversations I’d had that day…
Cheryl (at #86) - I couldn’t agree more. This is why the discussion about whether or not we’d be friends with someone if we knew they’d never become a Christian completely floors me.
Rev - so glad it went well!!