FORGE factory day
The rev, who is a regular signpost commenter is running a workshop on sharing your faith.
Dear Friends,
If you are interested in a very practical, insightful worshop on sharing your faith in this western, increasingly post modern culture, please join us this Saturday June 3rd at The Red network’s building (South Melbourne church of Christ) on Dorcas st in South Melbourne from 10:00 am til 2:30 pm. There will be imput from some effective evangelists from different parts of Melbourne sharing with you the hows, whats and wheres of sharing your faith today.The cost is only $25.00 and will include a simple lunch.
If you have any questions please email me at johnj@forge.org.au
the rev
Check it out here
June 4th, 2006 at 10:56 pm
“Urban I never said it was the only way to be like Jesus, but it is one way to be like Jesus. And I believe we are all called to share the hope the lies within us.”
But isnt that going to be different according to each persons unique dealings with God, their gifting and so forth? isnt it up to God to direct a persons steps? But you insist that unique and different people need to be “Told” by the “professionals” not only how but “to” “share there faith. If your really that committed to seeing the “weird” stuff die, stop holding workshops run by “effective” people on “how to………” altogether.
If you want it to die, let it. And see what emerges…seems to me that your perpetuating the problem, by offering a solution. Sounds familiar…
and i dont see why you feel the need to insinuate that Im arrogant for asserting my view?
June 4th, 2006 at 11:13 pm
Monk,
Some times I get tired of little guys throwing punches at me, and I throw some back
Its funny this issue of sharing our brokeness is one of the things I talked about. I also talked about it this morning, our brokeness is the one thing that unites all of humaity, we are all broken, and I believe we all want redemption. I want to believe that something worthwhile can come from my pain. I do find it easy to share my brokeness, but probably because I have learned over many years, that this is how I get healed of it, this is how it gets redeemed.
As far as intentions, perhaps you all don’t see things the way I do. I have been involved in church consulting agencies, I have been a denominational youth leader, and was involved in a internations church planting ministry. The fact is most Christians in the western world get “saved” and are taught as part of their discipleship, that they need to leave their old life behind. The change the way they dress, they change the things they listen to, and they change their friends. It is a statistical fact that most “devout” CHristians have almost no significant non church relationships after five years in the church. They become a Christian ghetto.
Now it seems many of you do not believe we are here to share the transfoming relationship that Christ brings, and the indwelling of the Spirit. So for you this seminar may seem pointless. But I actually believe that Jesus absolutly changed my life, that without Jesus I would most likely be in prison, if not I would be divorced, lonely, and miserable. Jesus changed my life, and continues to do so. Jesus makes me have compassion on others lives, to care for the poor and the marginalized. Jesus takes my sins, my hurts, my failures, and redeems them. Gives meaning to my pain. Jesus empowers me, and filled me with His Spirit. He is my joy, peace, and motivation. And I not only want to share this with everyone I know, but I want it to effect everyone and everywhere I go, whether they are interested in Jesus or not. The kingdom of God is meant to come and bring justice, mercy, love, forgiveness and redemption, for all and it has atleast in some respect in my life.
Now if you want to put me in the pile with all of these guilt motivators, with their bullshit fire and brimstone messages, ( I actually told my denomination that if they told my youth group one more time that if their friends died without Jesus, and they never witnessed to them, that their friends would go to hell and it would be their fault, I would never go to another camp again), then that is your perogative. I believe that we are all gifted differently, and I will most likely do this, much like Bec, very easily and naturally because of my gifting. But I will not sit back and watch the church continue to either wallow in their little inclub, or continue to berate people with a condescending, non-relational, trite methods that have been taught for years. I try to help people learn to embrace the simplicity of the gospel, I thought that is what a teacher is supposed to do.
the rev
June 4th, 2006 at 11:15 pm
Just because it contradicts yours?
June 4th, 2006 at 11:21 pm
So Urban, all the people that learned the way you did and still believe that don’t need to be told differently? All the people that have lost what it means to be salt and light to world should just be allowed to stay there?
And my suggestion was not about your views, but about your insistence that your view is true of others. The fact is that we all learn to do things by others. We learned to talk by others that could do it better than we. And this continues. The fact is I leaned to appreciate silence and stillness from Merton, and Nouwen, and my friend Michael Bischoff. I learned things that were not natural for me from people that it was natural for. We are broken vessels and we are put together in the church to learn from each other so that we might become more and more like Christ. If you take just the part of Jesus that cleansed the temple, you don’t get a complete picture do you? Nor do you if you just look at the Jesus in the wilderness fasting for forty days. The body of Christ is the binding together of unlike people so that we might learn to be more like a holistic Christ.
You seem to feel free to compare me to a monster, to say I shouldn’t be doing what I feel called to do, but then cry foul when I suggest that you might not be able to speak for everyone else. That hardly seems fair to me.
the rev
June 4th, 2006 at 11:22 pm
contradicts my what?
June 4th, 2006 at 11:37 pm
“Now it seems many of you do not believe we are here to share the transfoming relationship that Christ brings,”
Who on this thread has stated this?
“Now if you want to put me in the pile with all of these guilt motivators,”
I am not piling you in with guilt motivators. Merely pointing out what I see as a flaw. You say that the “leave it to the pros” mindset has to die, and to “help” you, the professional, set about instructing people. It reminds me of the plastic bag argument in supermarkets. Everyone says, “we really need to reduce plastic bag usage, otherwize we are going to kill our planet” Well, if you want to do that, STOP GIVING THEM TO PEOPLE. human beings are quite ingenious, you know. They can solve problems… when they need to.
That is the crux of my argument rev. Nothing more. But you dont seem interesed in confronting this point. Only defending your need to instruct by throwing punches at people much smaller than you.
June 4th, 2006 at 11:56 pm
contradicts your view..
When did I say you shouldnt do what you do? as if my weak opinions would stop you anyway?
The body of Christ is the binding together of unlike people so that we might learn to be more like a holistic Christ.
But each part brings its own unique gift does it not? It would be unfair to demand that an ear act like a hand or foot, when it only knows how to be an ear.. arent we supposed to treat the weaker parts with more modesty?
doesnt seem to be the case in my experience. the weaker parts cop more shit usually for “Lacking zeal”
It hasnt been my intention to compare you to any monsters. And I fail to see where specifically i have done this.
June 5th, 2006 at 12:07 am
so in the realm of ideas you are smaller than me? And who threw the first punches? I may be seeing things wrong here, perhaps you can show me how my letters are somehow bigger than yours on this board. It seems pretty convenient to criticize something, and then cry, stop picking on me, I am small and fragile when the defense is profered.
As to your assertion that experts need to stop teaching, how the hell does that work? What I say is that we are all experts, and we all need to share with each other. And if I am good at something then I need to share with others, and if they are good at something then they should share with me. Aren’t you setting yourself as an expert? Aren’t you instructing me? And shouldn’t I listen and see if I can learn from you? I have never insinuated that people shouldn’t teach, what I believe is that people should not let their teaching become a co-dependant relationship. But the bible says that those so gifted should equip the saints for the work of ministry. My problem is not when this happens, but when the “professionals” do all the ministry. The fact is you are much better situated to reach your friends with God’s love than I am, so I don’t want you to bring them to me, but rather help you (if you need help) to understand how you can share the love of God with your friends.
And if I see that something is wrong should I not try and say something about it, just like you are doing? Or do I not get to because I am too qualified?
There have been a number of people on this thread that have stated we shouldn’t share, but only talk about it if they ask questions. Or infered that we have no right, or reason to influence those of other faiths. Someone said all paths lead to God and we are just on one of them. I wasn’t talking to you when I said that. But perhaps I stated that a bit unfairly, and manipulatively, I would edit it if I could, thank you for pointing that out to me.
the rev
June 5th, 2006 at 12:19 am
You even brought his description up bro, you just didn’t use his name.
As to your assertion that we are all different parts of the body I agree whole heartedly. But we are all part of the one body. And what is that body doing, and has been doing for all of its life? Reconciling people to the Father. This was Christ’s mission, and it still is, through His body. I would never expect you to do what I do. But I would be called to equip you to do what you do better. So if you are an ear, you will not be making a lot of noise (thats what I am for) but your listening is part of the plan of reconciling people to the father. And this happens in many ways. We all have differing strengths, but ultimately we are all called to grow into a more holistic picture of CHrist. You have seen what happens when a man developes on “gift” to the exclusion of others. I am not naturally a pastor type, I am not very nurturing. But I have been force to be at times, because that is what was needed. So I learned to be more like the nurturing Jesus.
So you aren’t the kind of guy that can walk up to anyone on the street and start a conversation, I am. I am not telling you to be more like me, to pass out tracts, the get off your ass and do something for the kingdom. I am saying, make sure you are not hiding in the comfort of the church ghetto, you are a light to shine in darkness. I am saying, in your own way, within your own relationships and personality, you will share naturally God’s love with people that I never will. I am saying, pray for these people, as prayer changes you and makes you more apt to see God’s heart for them. I am saying don’t hide your faith, it is a part of you just like your work ethic, or your accent. I am also helping others to look deeper and see the redemptive analogies all around them. This does not change an ear to a foot, but equips both ear and foot to be more effectively themselves.
the rev
June 5th, 2006 at 12:27 am
A mans gotta defend himself Rev..
Yes, you make some valid points that i have failed to take into account Experts should share information if it helps others.
Yes, you are right, there have been comments made that allude to not trying to influence others. One of them was mine, which, to put in context, I meant to illustrate a need for more sensetivity. Which if a collossally insensitive juggernaut lik the Catholic Church are getting a grip of, then you know somethings up. Or, perhaps I am just a weak liberal minded sap.
Sorry about the aggression. But I am just really pissed off with so much that I have seen, experienced, been part of, and sometimes it feels like I am shouting into a void. with people doing that infuriating childish, stick the fingers in the ears and sing, lalalalalala la. It can be really infuriating when you express anger about the abuse in Church history, ( as a Christian)and the response is just so flippant and idiotic. that it just totally invalidates your position.
Yes in the realm of ideas, I can box alittle. But in person, as you well know, I am a mouse, and wouldnt dare be as assertive as I am on here.
June 5th, 2006 at 12:35 am
Perhaps this might help the conversation.
I have found that many of the best teachings I have heard were not so much completely new ideas, but confirmations of what I was beginning to learn anyways. So someone like yourself is tired of the guilt thing, feeling like they cannot do the heavy handed impersonal thing anymore, and just want to share their lives with others. They come to the seminar and here stories about how this is what many people are finding a natural, common sense way to share their faith. And in the process you pick up a few ideas, as well as sharing a few. You think of some different ways of looking at things. And perhaps you learn a new way to share your life with others.
So I tell the story of how one of my friends sat in my lounge room and experienced me inviting the town drunk, a smelly, homeless, and very intoxicated man into my home. My friend experiences how I showed respect and love to this man. How I sought to meet some legitmate needs, (food, and blankets), and then saw me show unconditional love by hugging this man and giving him my time. This is me sharing the gospel with my friend. I didn’t say a word, never mentioned it at all. But believe me I preached louder than any tract. Did I bring that man to my house just to preach? Ofcourse not, but my faith is such a part of who I am, that if you hang out with me, you will see it.
Now Paul in the word tells us that we are to equip people. Paul tells us that those that are teachers should honour God in their teaching. So that is what I do. I am not telling people the way to lead others to Christ is the take homeless drunks into your house. I am telling of my journey, and hoping to inspire, and equip others.
the rev
June 5th, 2006 at 12:43 am
And in person, I wouldn’t respond this way either. Look bro, I have been yelling at the same void for fifteen years now. Perhaps you find me as one of those lala’ers, but I do not think I am. I know you are hurt, angry, frustrated, perhaps it would have been more Christlike for me to just take it all and tell you I love you. But unfortunately, I am not so much like Him yet.
You know its hard sometimes, I feel like I get slammed by the athiests for being a Christian, and slammed by the Christians for not being fundementalist, or liberal enough. I get slammed for being too “church” and slammed for being too radical. I feel like I get it from all sides. I am trying to follow Jesus as best as I know how, I fail more than I succeed, but I get back up and keep walking. I put my head up, and shouldn’t be surprised that it gets wacked, it just gets tiresome sometimes.
the rev
June 5th, 2006 at 1:26 am
Now were getting close to sharing some wounds, and finding Christ standing among us..
I am trying to follow Jesus as best as I know how,
I think at the heart of it, that all any of us are trying to do… I appreciate that the criticism is tiring. when your straining so hard for the Kingdom.
People Ai work with have me boxed up, coz of my history with stupid Church. That i was so extroverted and smug about for so many years. i cant get beyond that now. I am tainted, even though I wish i could take it all away, and therefore, forever marginalised. it has even gotten to the stage that people smell my faith coming a mile away now, and the standard response when I open my mouth on certain topics is, “here comes the religion”
Some people even stopped talking to me for “sharing” my faith with someone there that I went out with a few times. And i wasnt talking about going to church with them… But once tainted.. You smell!
On the other side, I cant stand the bullshit that Church has fed me, I dont trust the thinking of most Christians enough to “share my wounds” with them, for fear that im gonna get some idiotic and iill thought out parroted dickhead opinion. and I am hyper sensitive to it… thanks for noticing
When I lived in the Manse at AV, there was a kid at work who came from a rough family. He had a fight with his mum, and needed somewhere to stay. Someone knew that I was a “Church goer” and mentioned it to me.
I posed it to the other housemates, and could not believe the response. Suspicion, defensiveness, conditions etc… from professing Christians, living in a Manse! It took some convincing, and I had to agree to place the conditions before him of no alcohol in the house, and outside for smoking.
It seemed to me to not be the response a group of Christians that went to Church every sunday should be giveingto someone in need, but i am not much of a fighter.. and have a distaste for conflict
so, I dutifully and abruptly put these conditions before him when I met him at the union hotel in union rd, at the sports bar… after praying hard all the way there.. Which he, in his humble state, obligingly accepted…
When i look back at that incident, there is alot to learn about “sharing”
I also once put it to one of the elders of AV that they should concrete the carpark and build a skate park. They thought i was being flippant. They laughed.
At an Alpha weekend once, I wanted to play, “I still havent found what im looking for” on the guitar for worship. It was wiped, coz, the “leader” told me” it was not appropriate coz they “had’ found what they were looking for.Later that afternoon, on the porch of a beautiful little cottage in the country, someone started a converstation about how “far” from God some “worldly” music is.
As i said, Im no fighter rev, Im a mouse, Im an ear. I listen, then light my match. You can only take so much…But then, who am i to critisise somebody elses servant?
June 5th, 2006 at 1:39 am
And just one other thing…
What i want is not for people to try and “be Christ” to me in some intentional, premeditated way. With the whole body of Christ walking around trying to “be Christ” to each other, no one is real about who they are, coz their to busy trying to deal with their pain by “being more Christlike” Not saying that you are doing this, But frankly I find it insulting. This is what well intentioned people have been doing to me for a long time. Lets be real find (make) spaces where we are safe to share our deepest wounds, for there Christ is with us. We stand with each other, God stands with us. Ffrom there, broken people who dont know The Father loves them, might…Might just fell safe to open themselves up.
I like a quote by John smith in one of his books. He says of the woman at the well, that Jesus put himself in her debt, by asking her for a drink..
Catch my drift… This is what i want from the Body of Christ, and what I want to Share..
Hello?
Is there anybody out there?
Is there anyone at home?
June 5th, 2006 at 8:34 am
Yes my friend that is pretty close to my experiences as well. I think the body is supposed to see Christ in each other, and encourage that. You were acting like Christ with that young man, we have done that many times ourselves.
Its a weird scripture from the letters of John that say, “if you love God, you will keep his commandments, and they will not be burdensome”. Why do they often seem so burdensome? Why does it seem so hard to be Christlike? Unfortunately my experience tells me that I do feel best when I am being Christlike, but often the church doesn’t want Christ in the present, they want to keep him in the pages of a book where He is safe. Only two people supported me when I took in four homeless punk rockers into my two bedroom apartment, my pastor and my wife (then my girlfriend). It seemed a no brainer to me, I had a home, these kids did not. What else should I have done? The reaction of the church, and my family was bad. Eventually I was evicted, the apartment managment seemed to dislike the punks hanging out, the cops coming to the house regularly ect. All of these good Christian people said I told you so, and you weren’t following the Spirit. Well I wound up in a hospital praying for three badly injured children and I believe watched them miraculously healed, a whole family meet Jesus, two relationships restored and two brothers come back to Jesus, because of not following the Spirit. I hope I never follow that Spirit.
the rev