Chaplains in public schools
In today’s paper, Judith Bessant argues against the proposal that Christian chaplains should be employed by public schools:
Employing Christian clergy in state schools also reflects a double standard in the way it contradicts the officially stated commitment by the same people who have been promoting the teaching of “Australian values”. Those values include “freedom” from unnecessary interference and control, “respect” - which includes having regard for “another person’s point of view” and presumably their religious views, and “understanding tolerance and inclusion”.
Employing Christian chaplains in state schools “to improve” values and provide guidance for students is a provocative and divisive act. It is disrespectful of the religious and secular beliefs of the many Australians who are non-religious or non-Christian. It also denies parents the right to teach children their own religious and cultural beliefs. Indeed it is as offensive and confrontational to non-Christians as it would be for Christians to have religious teachers or spiritual leaders committed to Buddhism, Hinduism or Islam in schools teaching their children about their religious values.
There was a chaplain at one of the public schools that I attended. But from what I could see, the chaplain was about as far from the “values based education” as one could imagine. Rather, she did the sort of things that you would expect a chaplain to do - she was the one who broke bad news if it was necessary, she was the one that followed up with people who had been bereaved, she was the one who students spoke to if they were having difficulties or issues. It was all non-compulsory and involved very little explicit religious content.
Perhaps this episode in the culture wars might accomplish something for the good of school students, totally separate from what is suggested by the rhetoric.
October 31st, 2006 at 3:03 pm
Sanders
“I personally could not subscribe to a particular faith when I can see that a world view informed by the myths and stories of religion is less meaningful than one informed by modern scientific advances”
What about a worldview that has its faith and religious doctrines confirmed by good scientific research, logic and reason…?
October 31st, 2006 at 3:03 pm
oh…and yes abtruth, i was thinking exactly the same thing. sanders, if you are in fact donald duck/keiren green/david…this is getting boring!
October 31st, 2006 at 3:18 pm
You seem to be making a number of assumptions.
First, I was referring to the myths and stories of religion being outmoded by more modern ways of looking at the world. I did not say the truths offered by faith were outmoded. I think your religious viewpoint is more fundamentalist than mine, in that you attach a reality to God which I don’t think is required by modern theological thinking, and you have mentioned “relationship with Christ” which seems to a quaint idea that has had its day.
Second, you have not responded to the argument that chaplaincy can be divisive step in state schools.
October 31st, 2006 at 3:28 pm
Sanders, you said, “You think faith informs counsellers for the better, I think it doesn’t. Personally, no faith seems to be a better option. ”
Do you have faith in that?
October 31st, 2006 at 3:51 pm
Hey Bec… your post at 57 got me thinking about my own experience. I went to see a counselor this year who wasn’t a Christian… and I actually found it really slowed down my ability to process my issue because I kept having to explain everything from scratch… issues were intertwined with my Christian world view, and were complicated by the dynamics of my church community. It would have been far more helpful for me to talk to someone who had a better understanding of where I was coming from. (She wasn’t hostile… she actually seemed fascinated in exploring theological issues with me… but this really wasn’t why I was there!)
Hi Sanders… if you’re feeling perplexed about Kieran Green / Donald Duck / A theist… there was a former Signposts blogger who boycotted literally every discussion on every topic with “how do you know there’s a god anyway you must be a simpleton and isn’t science more credible?”
On that issue… my first discipline was in science… I’m now studying a second degree in theology. These disciplines are moving much closer together as science grapples with profound mysteries… the nature of matter, energy and time… quantum mechanics… the origin of life… the origin of the universe… what is human consciousness anyway?
A really accessible overview of some of this movement is in the video “What the bleep do we know?”… you’ll find this in almost any video shop. Mind boggling, but really, really interesting.
If you’re the latest incarnation of Kieran Green / Donald Duck / A theist I know you won’t be remotely interested… my apologies if so!
October 31st, 2006 at 5:00 pm
I’m having trouble posting comments. Is it related to the donald “duck/keiren green/david” tags in previous comments? If so, I would like to distance myself from the conversation boycotter style you describe, Janet. I should state that Sanders is none of these bloggers.
October 31st, 2006 at 5:08 pm
Wayne, I need to make myself clearer. I do not think that faith in the traditional sense is required or useful. Using a Christian example, I think that the traditional mode of Christian belief, the one that requires there to be a real entity behind the concept of God, the one that requires Jesus to be a real historical figure is too fundamentalist for my liking. I do not have this old-fashioned style of faith. Hence, the comments about “faith ghettos” and the like.
I would look towards a more liberal understanding of theology - an understanding that is not “locked into” creeds or old-fashioned “personal saviour” stances.
But seeing as most “people of faith” seem to be committed to a particular brand, it is difficult to see much hope of theological progress.
October 31st, 2006 at 5:22 pm
Sanders, I think at the average denominational college you’d fit right in. (avoid the Pentecostal, Sydney Anglican, or non-denominational ones) There’s an avowed pagan studying where I study… it perplexes me a touch why someone who doesn’t believe in God, let alone Jesus, would want a theological degree… but no-one else bats an eyelid!
Now Bec if you see this… I know you are intending to avoid the “muslim balance” thread, but you really MUST look at Greg’s post there on “Women should really know there place”… an insightful analysis of why this thread went so horribly wrong. It’s cleared up the issue for me!!!!
October 31st, 2006 at 5:24 pm
… I mean “their place”. But now I know why I make such careless spelling mistakes.
November 1st, 2006 at 5:12 pm
Wayne, to an extent I believe in you. Christians DO believe that Jesus is the hope of the world (the WHOLE world, not just the white, english speaking bits!) So, we always look for opportunities to offer hope. I mean, you would logically call us selfish and indeed foolish if we didn’t share hope with those who have none. Admittedly, the argument will come from those who do not believe that Jesus has anything to offer.
However, we do, so we speak.
But there is more to ‘Jesus Freakazoidism’ than simply telling the message; there is also a strong focus in simply doing good things to each other, simply because of the biblical belief that all people are prescious, regardless of their background or circumstances.
Now, while large tracts of Christianity are littered with failure in terms of demonstrating a capacity to love unconditionally, it still remains a core part of the Christian ‘value system’, and therefore, remains something that can be offered to the broader community as a free-gift. No tithes required!
Also, lets get real about 1 matter in particular… ordained clergy don’t normally get involved in school chaplaincy. Rock-Spider or not!
November 3rd, 2006 at 2:33 pm
The questions remain:why is the Govt tossing $90 million into schools, and why will the churches grab the cash and run. For me the chaplaincy deal is nothing new.It shows how smart the Govt is,and how desparate are the churches.
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=5105
November 3rd, 2006 at 7:16 pm
Well, we’re in the long run up to an election, are we not?
So the answer to your question is the same as to these questions:
Why are enormous amounts of money directed to “middle class welfare” (eg family tax benefits, baby bonuses, etc.) when those living on welfare payments face tighter and tighter scrutiny?
Why is commercial childcare subsidised… even for the affluent?
Why are billions of dollars spent in private health care rebates?
Why do we tolerate a medicare “safety net” that ultimately provides medical “overservicing” to the affluent?
Answer… there’s votes in it. It’s like trying to hold back the tide. I think any opposition with a policy to revoke all this inequitable nonsense would be unelectable. I have no doubt there’s been plenty of liberal party polling done, and they know shoring up the “Christian vote” will get them over the line in marginal seats.
Why are churches accepting the money?
Mmmm… to be perfectly honest, I’m not sending my family tax benefit back much as I object to the redirection of “welfare” from the poor and vulnerable to the comfortable middle class. And if the opportunity came up to have a chaplain in my local schools, I wouldn’t be knocking it back…
Spineless I know.
You have to hand it to them… I can feel yet ANOTHER Howard Government term approaching. Sigh.
November 3rd, 2006 at 10:21 pm
Just to let you know. The Assembly of God run a program in my school called elevate. http://www.elevate.org.au/
And I am in a public AUSTRALIAN SECONDARY SCHOOL. Instead of chaplains employ professional counsellors and psycologists.
November 3rd, 2006 at 11:27 pm
1) “Just to let you know” is a annoying phrase. Very patronising.
2) The website you’ve linked us to - Elevate’s - says that it is run by “St. James Anglican Church Turramurra”… I hate to break it to you, adjustedrace, but St. James Anglican Church aint no AOG church. If I were a betting man, I’d put my money on it being Anglican.
November 3rd, 2006 at 11:28 pm
*an annoying phrase
November 4th, 2006 at 2:21 pm
I defend the God-given right of anyone still in high school to use annoying phrases.
November 5th, 2006 at 1:17 pm
Janet: dead right for the first question- great wedge issue; in terms of the second question:the churches are being seduced and they love it!
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=5105
November 6th, 2006 at 8:43 am
At the risk of sounding cynical… I think the horse has already bolted in many respects… church run aged care homes, for example, would have to close immediately if the government pulled the pin on funding. The government pays for most of the social workers in the Salvation Army. The government will fund any religious or private school according to a funding formula… to Islamic schools as well, although there are far, far fewer of them. The chaplaincy issue is just one more thing.
I guess it reduces the chances of churches exercising a prophetic voice toward the rulers of the day when so much funding rolls in from the goverment. Maybe that’s all part of the Liberal grand plan.
November 6th, 2006 at 8:17 pm
I agree.However what is more disturbing is that the market and not govt is catching up with the church.
Having enjoyed tax breaks etc for decades,churches are beginning to offload their aged care facilities to the global financial institutions eg Macquarie bank ha moved in NZ and helped the Salvos unload their homes in Aust.I understand.News paper reports indicate that they and others are targetting church based aged care facilities for takeover.It will not be possible for churches to continue to operate as instruments of govt, these multi million operations.For the market these are choice investments.
Child care is another choice investmen now earning multinational companies such as ABC loads of cash.All Vic chrches of christ congregations have just received advice on the implcations of doing deals with such companies.
Having begged,lobbied,requested,petitioned all kind s of financial breaks and protection from the govt,churches will now sell such operations-aged care,preschool etc (my own denomination has already unloaded all its camp sites for a tidy sum)and make millions.I wonder how much will be returned to the taxpayer.
The depressing aspect of all these developments that few in congregations have any idea what the hell is happening or likely to happen.