Comments on: muslim balance http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/06/28/muslim-balance/ musings from those on the journey Fri, 21 Nov 2008 22:17:27 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: bec http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/06/28/muslim-balance/#comment-150149 bec Tue, 07 Nov 2006 00:26:50 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/06/28/muslim-balance/#comment-150149 Changing the topic slightly - I think that this is an important piece - my conversations with Waleed about the Hilali row certainly helped me understand what was going on a lot more: http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/the-hilali-row-has-fuelled-a-siege-mentality/2006/11/06/1162661612071.html Changing the topic slightly - I think that this is an important piece - my conversations with Waleed about the Hilali row certainly helped me understand what was going on a lot more:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/the-hilali-row-has-fuelled-a-siege-mentality/2006/11/06/1162661612071.html

]]> By: Bring Back EP at LP http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/06/28/muslim-balance/#comment-149978 Bring Back EP at LP Fri, 03 Nov 2006 02:01:50 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/06/28/muslim-balance/#comment-149978 wot saint said. wot saint said.

]]> By: Greg the explorer http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/06/28/muslim-balance/#comment-149977 Greg the explorer Fri, 03 Nov 2006 01:38:35 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/06/28/muslim-balance/#comment-149977 <blockquote>I know of no other religion which understands God as Trinity (which is the acid test for a Christian…and separates us too from Jews, and everyone else) </blockquote> I'm not that sure that an understanding of the trinity is necessarliy all that important in terms of following Jesus - it is certainly far to complex for anyone to confidently say that assent to uit in anything other than pure faith - logically it don;t fit! Anyway I'm off for a dirty weekend in Orange so I'll get back to responding on Monday. Saint - where's the agression and insults gone? This thread has become positively positive in it's respoect for each other - stop it now and start hurling abuse...it';s all I am comfortable with

I know of no other religion which understands God as Trinity (which is the acid test for a Christian…and separates us too from Jews, and everyone else)

I’m not that sure that an understanding of the trinity is necessarliy all that important in terms of following Jesus - it is certainly far to complex for anyone to confidently say that assent to uit in anything other than pure faith - logically it don;t fit!

Anyway I’m off for a dirty weekend in Orange so I’ll get back to responding on Monday.

Saint - where’s the agression and insults gone? This thread has become positively positive in it’s respoect for each other - stop it now and start hurling abuse…it’;s all I am comfortable with

]]> By: saint http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/06/28/muslim-balance/#comment-149976 saint Fri, 03 Nov 2006 01:32:04 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/06/28/muslim-balance/#comment-149976 Greg, 1) I only read the first chapter of Hirsch's book (advance copy before it was published ) so can't comment on what he is referring to. Any chance you can summarize his thesis? 2) Having said that I don't know of anything in Islam that is compatible with belief in Christ - and I say that as one who has also been taught by ex-missionaries who worked with Muslims overseas many years + coming from a former church where we supported a Muslim convert now working overseas as a missionary with his former Muslim community + whatever I have read on the subject If Alan is talking about Muslim converts keeping certain customs (eg regular prayer, prayer postures, etc etc) that is of no import. And yes there are the usual issues if say you happen to be married to more than one woman...missionaries will usually ask people to stay as they are, not send wives away etc. But if you say you have encountered Christ and yet are going to mosque, reciting the Koran, practicing sharia (which covers everything from foreign relations to how to wipe your bum), still identifying as a Muslim who follows the (false) prophet Mohammed then really - save for being in fear of your life (and it does happen) -I would definitely be asking a lot of questions! 3) Again am not sure about what you mean about limiting the incarnational God. Can you expand a bit? I can have guess, and here, forgive my somewhat imprecise and crudely stated statements (theologians can correct me) I would be assessing it against the following a. I know of no other religion which understands God as Trinity (which is the acid test for a Christian...and separates us too from Jews, and everyone else) And we know Him as Trinity because He has revealed Himself as Trinity. If you don't know God as Trinity you don't know Him. b. Jesus and Jesus alone is God Incarnate (prefigured in OT but not fully revealed). Jesus alone is the only mediator between God the Father and us, the only way to the Father, the one of whom the prophets spoke etc and through whom God has revealed Himself most fully and completely (again not fully revealed in OT but in actual fact I would say it is correct to state that Jesus saved the OT saints). c. Jesus alone affected our salvation through His suffering, death and resurrection d The resurrected Jesus is now "bodily" in heaven with the Father, and present to us by His Spirit (...His Church even!...) e. The Spirit always leads us to the Father through Christ f. The Jewish/Christian understanding of God is not that he is just numerically one i.e. only one god...in fact the Bible does refer to other gods...(just to really mess it up a bit for you *grin*) but that He is unique. "There is none like him". Greg,

1) I only read the first chapter of Hirsch’s book (advance copy before it was published ) so can’t comment on what he is referring to. Any chance you can summarize his thesis?

2) Having said that I don’t know of anything in Islam that is compatible with belief in Christ - and I say that as one who has also been taught by ex-missionaries who worked with Muslims overseas many years + coming from a former church where we supported a Muslim convert now working overseas as a missionary with his former Muslim community + whatever I have read on the subject

If Alan is talking about Muslim converts keeping certain customs (eg regular prayer, prayer postures, etc etc) that is of no import. And yes there are the usual issues if say you happen to be married to more than one woman…missionaries will usually ask people to stay as they are, not send wives away etc. But if you say you have encountered Christ and yet are going to mosque, reciting the Koran, practicing sharia (which covers everything from foreign relations to how to wipe your bum), still identifying as a Muslim who follows the (false) prophet Mohammed then really - save for being in fear of your life (and it does happen) -I would definitely be asking a lot of questions!

3) Again am not sure about what you mean about limiting the incarnational God. Can you expand a bit?

I can have guess, and here, forgive my somewhat imprecise and crudely stated statements (theologians can correct me) I would be assessing it against the following

a. I know of no other religion which understands God as Trinity (which is the acid test for a Christian…and separates us too from Jews, and everyone else) And we know Him as Trinity because He has revealed Himself as Trinity. If you don’t know God as Trinity you don’t know Him.
b. Jesus and Jesus alone is God Incarnate (prefigured in OT but not fully revealed). Jesus alone is the only mediator between God the Father and us, the only way to the Father, the one of whom the prophets spoke etc and through whom God has revealed Himself most fully and completely (again not fully revealed in OT but in actual fact I would say it is correct to state that Jesus saved the OT saints).
c. Jesus alone affected our salvation through His suffering, death and resurrection
d The resurrected Jesus is now “bodily” in heaven with the Father, and present to us by His Spirit (…His Church even!…)
e. The Spirit always leads us to the Father through Christ
f. The Jewish/Christian understanding of God is not that he is just numerically one i.e. only one god…in fact the Bible does refer to other gods…(just to really mess it up a bit for you *grin*) but that He is unique. “There is none like him”.

]]> By: bec http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/06/28/muslim-balance/#comment-149975 bec Fri, 03 Nov 2006 01:30:08 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/06/28/muslim-balance/#comment-149975 wayne - i guess it depends on how you're using the term 'christian' - are you using it in a sociological sense to describe the religion they belong to, or a more 'spiritual' sense? i was using it in the sociological/institutional sense in my post above - 'christian' actually means 'christ-like', so i guess it's entirely possible (at least in theory) to be a christian and a 'muslim' at the same time (though i would wonder how it can be done from a doctrinal point of view) wayne - i guess it depends on how you’re using the term ‘christian’ - are you using it in a sociological sense to describe the religion they belong to, or a more ’spiritual’ sense? i was using it in the sociological/institutional sense in my post above - ‘christian’ actually means ‘christ-like’, so i guess it’s entirely possible (at least in theory) to be a christian and a ‘muslim’ at the same time (though i would wonder how it can be done from a doctrinal point of view)

]]> By: wayne http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/06/28/muslim-balance/#comment-149972 wayne Fri, 03 Nov 2006 01:20:03 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/06/28/muslim-balance/#comment-149972 Perhaps we are confusing Christianity with salvation and our ultimate destiny in eternity. Sometimes when we hear the word "Christian" we think "salvation" and "eternity with God". Can someone be a Muslim and be "saved" or spend "eternity with God"? They may not be a "Christian", but in this case would be "saved" ("saved" in this instance meaning spending eternity with God in heaven. However, salvation in its fullest sense is more than just where we spend eternity, but that's another subject.....) In such a case, Jesus is still the door, they still have to go through Him, and they may use this door even though they are not consciously aware of it. Perhaps we are confusing Christianity with salvation and our ultimate destiny in eternity. Sometimes when we hear the word “Christian” we think “salvation” and “eternity with God”.

Can someone be a Muslim and be “saved” or spend “eternity with God”? They may not be a “Christian”, but in this case would be “saved” (”saved” in this instance meaning spending eternity with God in heaven. However, salvation in its fullest sense is more than just where we spend eternity, but that’s another subject…..)

In such a case, Jesus is still the door, they still have to go through Him, and they may use this door even though they are not consciously aware of it.

]]> By: bec http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/06/28/muslim-balance/#comment-149968 bec Fri, 03 Nov 2006 00:59:46 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/06/28/muslim-balance/#comment-149968 Greg, I think that often we make Christianity the door, rather than acknowledging (in PRACTICE!) that it is Christ. In theory I think it *may* be possible to remain in one religion while embracing Christ (maybe Ghandi did this?), but I also think that may be quite difficult, and I don't personally know anyone who does it. Obviously you'd have to reject certain parts of other faiths as well - I can't think of a single faith that doesn't have doctrines that are clearly in contradiction to Christian doctrine. Mind you, there's plenty in Christian churches that I think is contrary to Christian gospel too! Greg,
I think that often we make Christianity the door, rather than acknowledging (in PRACTICE!) that it is Christ. In theory I think it *may* be possible to remain in one religion while embracing Christ (maybe Ghandi did this?), but I also think that may be quite difficult, and I don’t personally know anyone who does it. Obviously you’d have to reject certain parts of other faiths as well - I can’t think of a single faith that doesn’t have doctrines that are clearly in contradiction to Christian doctrine. Mind you, there’s plenty in Christian churches that I think is contrary to Christian gospel too!

]]> By: Bring Back EP at LP http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/06/28/muslim-balance/#comment-149967 Bring Back EP at LP Fri, 03 Nov 2006 00:17:06 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/06/28/muslim-balance/#comment-149967 Greg, any person who accepts Jesus as the door to salvation is a christian. you are trying to make too much out of a molehill. Greg,
any person who accepts Jesus as the door to salvation is a christian.

you are trying to make too much out of a molehill.

]]> By: Greg the explorer http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/06/28/muslim-balance/#comment-149959 Greg the explorer Thu, 02 Nov 2006 22:45:45 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/06/28/muslim-balance/#comment-149959 If we believe in an incarnational God, why do youb limit that incarnation to certain religions or sets of belief? If we believe in an incarnational God, why do youb limit that incarnation to certain religions or sets of belief?

]]> By: Greg the explorer http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/06/28/muslim-balance/#comment-149958 Greg the explorer Thu, 02 Nov 2006 22:43:56 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/06/28/muslim-balance/#comment-149958 Homer said: <blockquote>except people can ONLY gain entry to God’s kingdom through Jesus. This means Muslims and all others are denied entry. </blockquote> and Saint said: <blockquote> But can you remain in Islam and be a Christian? Nope. You may have to make room for secrecy. But there is no room for syncretism. </blockquote> I agree with you both...however...(you knew that word was coming)...if Jesus is the door, the only door to God, how is it right to say you ahve to be a Christian? By saying that aren't you making a religion the door instead of the person Jesus? The book I reading at the moment <em>The Shaping of Things to Come</em> is written by Alan Hirsch and Mike Frost and they talk about muslims embracing Jesus (and they give examples) and remaining within Islam while rejecting thos parts of Islam that are not consistent with a faith in Jesus. What are your thoughts on that? Homer said:

except people can ONLY gain entry to God’s kingdom through Jesus.

This means Muslims and all others are denied entry.

and Saint said:

But can you remain in Islam and be a Christian? Nope. You may have to make room for secrecy. But there is no room for syncretism.

I agree with you both…however…(you knew that word was coming)…if Jesus is the door, the only door to God, how is it right to say you ahve to be a Christian? By saying that aren’t you making a religion the door instead of the person Jesus?

The book I reading at the moment The Shaping of Things to Come is written by Alan Hirsch and Mike Frost and they talk about muslims embracing Jesus (and they give examples) and remaining within Islam while rejecting thos parts of Islam that are not consistent with a faith in Jesus.

What are your thoughts on that?

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