Hillsong conference 2006
Sorry to be slow on the uptake on this, but Hillsong 2006 is up and running. Anyone who wants to post reviews, discussion or articles about the 2006 conference, do it in this thread (just so we can try to keep things together a bit).
Ta muchly.
July 11th, 2007 at 5:49 pm
Oops, hit the submit button by accident.
Fabio - you also said:
This is also one of the reasons I don’t recommend churches down here when people ask me. I prefer first to talk to people and find out where their head is at, what they think church is about, the issues they have with their church, pray with them, sometimes recommend someone to talk to - maybe get us together for coffee or something - or a book to read, sometimes talk to other people in their church. I find - and I include myself here - that people really have wrong expectations about what church is and is about…or misinterpret certain things….
I find it interesing that you say that mainstream churches may be more Biblical but fail in other areas the Pentes have succeeded in. I may be able to guess what you would say, but save me from guessing wrongly: could you elaborate?
July 11th, 2007 at 6:03 pm
“I find - and I include myself here - that people really have wrong expectations about what church is and is about…”
Saint - I completely agree.
I too await your elaboration Fabio…
July 11th, 2007 at 6:05 pm
Well put daisy.
FaceLift, my 1st thought when you began posting on forgiveness was the 70 X 7 principal which Jesus taught. Says to me that forgiveness can take time. I can say ‘I forgive them’..and I do and did long ago. Yet it’s more than that.
Some have been treated in quite an appalling and unbiblical manner…you could say cruelly in some cases. These things have been done by people who taught us about obedience to spiritual oversight. So you can imagine, if that spiritual oversight treats someone under them in a cruel, unjust or unbiblical manner; the emotional, psychological and spiritual damage can be devastating. This can take years to come to terms with let alone ‘get over’. One of the reasons for this is we have been made to feel as though it was all our fault, or that we were the problem.
It would be so much easier for people to recover and perhaps find reconciliation if there was some acknowledgement from the leadership for the damage they have caused, albeit in some cases, with good intentions but poor understanding.
July 11th, 2007 at 6:11 pm
Actually, daisy, I don’t think I did say that. In saying it is a process, I have stated what I believe to be true. I said from the outset that sometimes it is hard. I said forgiveness should be a target for closure. I quoted scripture which definitely presents forgiveness as a priority rather than an option, however. But scripture is scripture, and you can’t change it or get around it.
Saint, where do you think all the ‘refugees’ who were baptised with the Holy Spirit were going to end up? They, we, were ostracised from our churches. Told to shut up and sit at the back of the church, or crowded around by people who wanted to ‘deliver’ us from the ‘devil’! We had people come to our house that we’d never met before and let us know speaking in tongues was ‘of the devil’! I know of entire churches which formed out of groups of people who were baptised with the Holy Spirit and shown the left foot of fellowship. The charismatic move came out of such intolerance. Instead of embracing this reformation many ‘traditional’ churches rejected anyone and anything to do with speaking in tongues. Some still do.
Then it was the gifts of the Spirit, which have apparently ended, and healing, and then prosperity, etc. So people go into excess because they are removed from the safety of traditional roots and expected to fend for themselves and ‘rediscover’ foundational truths without the benefit of those who went before. So now is all ‘prosperity’ teaching wrong? Probably not, but any teaching which is bad has been thoroughly crushed and opposed, but, by association, so has teaching which is good, so that the people who see that there is truth in it are banded and branded along with those who go overboard. The same old same old foolish refusal to dialogue and grow.
So cop some of the flack for failing to help people who came across truths which have been long neglected, and for causing them to separate, then blaming them for reforming under a different banner, and being forced, by your neglect, to fend for themselves, even making mistakes their forefathers made, which you could have helped them through. By ‘you’ I mean those traditionalists with experience who refused to work with people who discovered long neglected truths and stepped out in faith to prove God in them.
Today you think the problem is all about ‘wealth’, so you attack ‘prosperity’ teaching and miss the good. I agree that there is excess, but that doesn’t mean we are all obsessed with money, or excessive in our understanding of what God means by prosperity and how it is properly distributed.
There is also excess in the ‘poverty’ teaching of ‘mainstream’ traditional churches which has condemned entire nations for generations to lack and disadvantage, while churches reap massive fortunes in land acquisition while, from within, power-mongers climb ladders of political power over the heaps of subjugated masses. I think God will have something to say about that also, don’t you!
July 11th, 2007 at 6:20 pm
And that Singer, is the hardest fact to face: most won’t acknowledge, and many get tied up trying to get that acknowledgment. This is where I encourage people, after a few attempts to just leave that with God and move on. Doesn’t make it easier, doesn’t offer excuses for bad behaviour, doesn’t close the door to forgiveness or future reconciliation, but it saves beating your head against a brick wall I think it makes the healing more genuine and perhaps faster. Because it lets God work in His way and His time rather than us keep pushing the issue.
Doesn’t guarantee acknowledgement and repentance. But sometimes small miracles happen. Like acknowledgment and apologies later - even if decades later (yes it has happened). Often times people can only truly repent and others forgive after some distance from the events and the hurt and God has moved them to see and recognise things more clearly.
July 11th, 2007 at 6:20 pm
Daisy, Singer - both well put.
I just wanted to add that one of my key gripes with certain Christian subcultures is the way that the word “forgiveness” is thrown around in a manner that essentially re-victimises victims. The idea of forgiveness is used against the VICTIM. The VICTIM is blamed for their hardheartedness. The VICTIM is blamed for not being able to forgive. The word is thrown around in a manner that makes it seem that perpetrators of violence and abuse - and this includes spiritual, psychological and emotional - do not have to be held accountable for their behaviour.
My other gripe is that most people (and I include myself in this) have a very poor theological understanding of what forgiveness means. It’s just a word that’s bandied about, and most Christians just assume it’s something that we’re supposed to do. Ask them why and they probably couldn’t tell you anything beyond “well, God forgave my sins so I have to forgive others”.
July 11th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
” I find - and I include myself here - that people really have wrong expectations about what church is and is about…or misinterpret certain things….”
People have different expectations but it doesn’t mean they are wrong. e.g. A traditional church may appeal to one person but not another. Some prefer small gatherings in homes but others prefer large meetings in a hall. By church (little c) I meant a group of Christians you can have fellowship with. If you have it with your friends in your house then I consider that church just as much as going to a Sunday service. I am not talking about the Church (big C) here. I’m talking about regular fellowship with other Christians and hearing the word preached.
“I find it interesing that you say that mainstream churches may be more Biblical but fail in other areas the Pentes have succeeded in.”
Personally speaking I find mainstream churches too confrontational to bring unsaved friends, too traditional, unrealistic and formal. These are areas I think the Pentecostal movement have improved in.
July 11th, 2007 at 6:28 pm
Like I said FaceLift, that charo movement down here was before my time, but sounds to me that it was similar up your end and I might have hit a nerve. Or that chip on your shoulder.
July 11th, 2007 at 6:31 pm
Actually, speaking of apologies…
I had the great pleasure in catching up with a former HS pastor for coffee last year. This person had moved on well before I came to grief.
This person has also suffered greatly yet is still the same sweet soul they always were.
This person took it upon themselves to apologise to me on behalf of the church and the denomination. When I protested that ‘They didn’t have to do that…it was not your fault’, this person said to me that ‘As a former pastor, I have a biblical responsibility to apologise to you’…makes me cry writing it. What a beautiful gesture from someone I have always admired, yet has never done anything wrong that I know of.
I can’t tell you what this means to me.
Yet it also shows how easy it can be….painless, meaningful and beautiful.
July 11th, 2007 at 6:32 pm
FaceLift…you want to talk about “excess” and “ostracism” and “exclusion”??
Yes, there were “refugees” who were ostracised, but there were also people who were quite clearly told that they “weren’t real Christians” because they didn’t speak in tongues. There were people who became refugees because they didn’t conform to some dodgy theology about baptism in the Spirit. This continues today - I personally believe that I was baptised in the Spirit, but because I don’t speak in tongues I have been ostracised from certain groups I’m involved in. Yep, the charismatic movement came out of intolerance, but in my experience, it’s the charismatic movement that’s perpetuating that intolerance TODAY. I don’t personally know any Anglicans who have any problem with speaking in tongues (I know many who practice it). I do, however, know plenty of charismatics/pentecostals who’ve told me - and I QUOTE - that they were “surprised to meet an Anglican who was actually a Christian”. I was told on more than one occasion that I wasn’t a Christian because I attended an Anglican church. This is by people in mainstream pentecostal churches in Victoria. This is happening NOW. Not in the 1970s, not in the 1980s, not even in the 1990s. NOW.
I’m not even going to get started on prosperity doctrine.
I am still awaiting elaboration on your statement about “more Biblical” and “more successful” churches.
July 11th, 2007 at 6:49 pm
fabio - my non-churched friends find mainstream churches comfortable. They conform to their idea of what church is. Some of them utterly adore high church services. They would, on the other hand, be completely freaked out by charismatic services - particularly very charismatic/pentecostal services. I know quite a few people who had no church background and who came to faith through very traditional, formal church services. The only people I know who came to faith through pentecostal services already had a church background.
I had a church background and while I found pentecostalism exciting in some respects, I also found that subculture too conservative (culturally and theologically), and completely unrealistic and sometimes downright destructive and dangerous in terms of the views expressed of how God works in the world.
I do not say this in order to deny that there is anything positive about pentecostalism - I think that there is, and I learnt a lot from my time in pentecostal churches and organisations. I do not regard the experiences of people I know as proving/disproving anything other than the fact that different people need different things.
I feel that in your attempts to defend that which you love, you are ignoring the faults and dangers that exist. You seem to be responding to the criticisms of pentecostal churches (specifically Hillsong) by pointing out the crimes of traditional churches. This is not a zero-sum game. The abuse experienced by people like Singer in a pentecostal church is not negated by the fact that you suffered at the hands of a traditional church.
July 11th, 2007 at 6:50 pm
I agree with what you say, Singer, and can only say that sometimes people do regretable things to others and appear completely oblivious to what has been done or said (I wonder what I’m guilty of), or have been in such denial that they genuinely believe nothing actually happened.
My wife and I last week were invited for a coffee with a couple in leadership, who, over 14 years ago basically denied our call and said we’d amount to nothing and were the wrong people in the wrong place doing the wrong thing, during a particularly harrowing time on our lives, which they may or may not have known about - the very people we needed to be encouraging at the time. But, hey we survived and grew, because God has always been with us even when crucial people weren’t.
It’s amazing that they were able to smile and joke and discuss our present work with fondness and encouragement and affirmation after all these years, as if nothing had happened, but that is forgiveness - as if nothing happened, and, sure, I would have liked an apology, just as an acknowledgement of the error, because words were said at the time and they cut deep, but, none has come, so that’s that, God knows, and, as saint correctly assessed, sometimes time works well for us, and the fact that we kept our mouths shut about their ‘error’ of judgement, cruelty and discouraging attitude for all those years served both to keep us and protect them. That is the power of forgiveness.
I’m not attempting to blow any trumpet here, just illustrating a point and going with the flow of opening up. I’m saying it’s a hard and long road sometimes, but the results are amazing.
And, bec, I don’t take a hardline view on forgiveness. It takes courage and strength beyond that shown by the perpetrator. Being a victim is hard, but it’s a hard life to stay there in the valley of despair when there’s joy on the Hill where all victims are released to victory in Christ.
July 11th, 2007 at 7:06 pm
bec,
‘I am still awaiting elaboration on your statement about “more Biblical” and “more successful” churches.’
Que???
July 11th, 2007 at 7:30 pm
“I feel that in your attempts to defend that which you love, you are ignoring the faults and dangers that exist. You seem to be responding to the criticisms of pentecostal churches (specifically Hillsong) by pointing out the crimes of traditional churches. This is not a zero-sum game. The abuse experienced by people like Singer in a pentecostal church is not negated by the fact that you suffered at the hands of a traditional church.”
Show me where I have defended Hillsong’s theology or leadership style?
Show me where I said crimes of traditional churches justify those of Hillsong?
How many times have I acknowledged the faults in Hillsong!!??
Did I say Singer’s experience or anyone’s experience was negated??? NO
You probably didn’t even read my whole post.
I never said the benefits of pentecostalism was in the doctrine or dangerous culture. I said PERSONALLY I find the more contemporary, relaxed and less formal approach better for myself and where my friends might feel more comfortable. I never said a formal and traditional approach was bad because I know some people prefer it.
July 11th, 2007 at 7:46 pm
fabio, remember you are on ‘anti-hillsong’ turf, now, so the idea is that you need to be drawn deeper into complete denial of all that is Hillsong, Pentecostal or remotely connected. It is part of the weaning process. Maybe you shouldn’t lose sight of all that is good and wholesome about Hillsong and Pentecost before you go further towards where they want you to go.
These are the same people who are refusing to allow you to claim to be a genuine Christian, or that anyone associated with Hillsong or CCC is a genuine Christian. You have to look at what is happening here.
saint, I don’t have a chip on my shoulder. That was so long ago! I don’t dwell on it much. I love those people. They were so kind to us when we were first saved. I’ll never forget that. The love and charity in the Anglican Church is special. It is one of the qualities we need to catch and build on in pentecostalism. The leader who was threatened by our tongue talking led us to the Lord. Why would I do anything but love him? Always will.
July 11th, 2007 at 8:30 pm
Agreed FaceLift. When I have to repeat myself every few posts just because someone applies a Hillsong stereotype it makes any kind of real discussion difficult.
My post was not to ridicule traditional churches like what’s been done to Hillsong here. There’s a lot I could say about traditional churches but I have held back. What I really said was that both Pentecostalism and mainstream churches have their pros and cons. People like Bec see this as me justifying Hillsong.
I’m still waiting for abtruth to even acknowledge me as a brother in Christ. So far it hasn’t happened. All this Biblical knowledge that people seem to have is useless if they can’t even show love
July 11th, 2007 at 8:54 pm
“Personally speaking I find mainstream churches too confrontational to bring unsaved friends, too traditional, unrealistic and formal. These are areas I think the Pentecostal movement have improved in.”
You’re kidding me.
So you’re quite comfortable when the wanker out the front says….’everybody say *Lord* (’Lord’). ‘Everybody say *abundance* (’abundance’). Or this completely ridiculous one from Phil Baker last weekend…’everybody say *phlegmatic* (’phlegm … mar…uh…..’)
Or this ‘turn to the person next to you’ nonsense. ‘Turn to the person next to you and tell them Jesus is Lord’. ‘Turn to the person next to you and tell them their arse is on fire.’
There was going to be some transcripts here of Richard Roberts (son of Oral Roberts) at Christian Shitty Church last weekend…but I just could not watch it for all of this ‘everybody say’ and ‘turn to the person next to you’ bullshit.
You seriously expect an unchurched person would sit their comfortably while being told to turn to the person next to them and tell them things that they don’t understand or disagree with?
Pentecostals have a very strange idea about what normal people would be comfortable with.
Your churches are an embarrassment. Your pastors are an embarrassment. Your teachings are an embarrassment.
The reason why YOU’RE not embarrassed about it is because it’s impossible to be embarrassed in a place which is already so embarrassing.
Someone wearing a clown costume has no reason to be embarrassed if their fly is undone.
The only people who are telling us how much pentecostals are improving and how ‘contemporary’ they are….are the pentecostals…not normal people.
July 11th, 2007 at 8:58 pm
BTW …Same goes for Anglicans and the ‘peace be with you’ bullshit.
July 11th, 2007 at 9:26 pm
The thing is, fabio, if abtruth acknowledges that you are a real Christian, and that believers in attendance at Hillsong are Christians, s/he knows that this is a fundamental acknowledgement that Hillsong actually preaches enough truth for people to be saved. Which also means it’s not all bad over there, after all.
Lance turn to your neighbour and ask, “What was that all really about, and does it actually matter that much?” Shalom!
July 11th, 2007 at 11:15 pm
Lance, is there no end to this insanity. You took what I said and twisted it to say something I didn’t.
I cringe every time they do that “turn to your neighbour” thing. It’s not what I’m talking about at all. I just prefer a church that isn’t so monotone and bland. I’m not saying Pentecostalism is the answer but it’s still better in this area than traditional churches. Can’t you accept that not everyone is like you?
I doubt abtruth will have the humility to accept me as a brother. It’s brought me to the conclusion that this place is a farce and not a healthy place to be. They criticise others yet can’t even accept other Christians as being part of God’s kingdom. Their words are empty without love, and the reason this site will never be of much useful effect
July 12th, 2007 at 1:37 am
Steady, I think I must have infected you all with the bug I had the other day where I misattributed something to Rev instead of Greg e.g. Bec #460 - the elaboration was to be from Fabio (you got it right in #452)
Lance re #468. The “peace be with you bullshit” as you call it - in some cases it is also in form of a kiss - is part of the liturgy for Anglicans, Catholics, Orthodox and other liturgical services. It has a history and significance - some would trace it to the Bible. It has been bastardized by low churches and pentes who don’t use a liturgy as nothing more than excuse for silly greetings or schmalzy brainwashing.
FaceLift -#462 Someone denying your call does not equate with what some people on this board are talking about. In fact, if it was a genuine call, I doubt that you should have been offended at all. But that’s another story
Fabio
In #457 you said:
In #464 you said:
Well ‘confrontational’ and ‘unrealistic’ sound a bit negative to me. What I find funny about this - and here I go back to what we understand of church and what we do when we gather together regularly as we are commanded to do - is that
(a) the pentes who are often seen to be at one extreme end of the Christian spectrum have totally sold out to culture like the best of extreme end elsewhere (like the theological left in the liturgical churches- U2charists for the Anglicans, clown masses for the Catholics…)
(b) many in the emerging movement which characterizes itself as much more fluid and organic and want to be counter cultural tend to either heavily rely on cultural icons, music, expressions etc but at the same time have a tendency to cherry pick the ritual elements from liturgical or monastic traditions without really understanding them
(c) those in the liturgical traditions have often forgotten the meaning of the form of their liturgy (with perhaps not the Orthodox who have been the least prone to liturgical reformation. If you want to see counter cultural either go to a big fat Greek (Orthodox) wedding or a Russian Orthodox communion service and get someone to explain everything from the architecture, interior decorations, form and order of service)
(d) people think that when the early Christians gathered together in houses they just sat around and told each other how much they didn’t know about anything like many do now ;-). The first Christians still went to synagogue (Paul himself used to go first to the synagogues to preach on his mission travels until he finally shook off the dust while remaining confident in God’s covenant faithfulness to the Jews Rom 9-10). At some time the rift between synagogue and church happened - a period still much contested and understood by historians - but by the first century after Christ we have evidence of an early form of liturgy in the Christian churches. And yes, there is both continuity and discontinuity with synagoge practices as you would expect.
(e) Finally while there is evidence in the Bible that non-believers may have witnessed the Christian gatherings (hec some were in the open from what we know of early literature) we know, as I said before, that the focus of the gathering of Christians for the ministry of the word and the Lord’s supper was not for unbelievers, for evangelism.
(f) From what I understand - and here I am happy to be corrected by church and liturgical historians - liturgy started falling by the ways side with some post reformation movements. Even so many protestants (eg Presbies, even those remnants who along with Methodists and Congregationalists ended up in the UC. Lutherans ) have a liturgical - and sacramental - tradition and theology.
(g) And again I am wondering if the form of evangelism and catechising of new believers used by many Christians today (”accept Jesus as Lord” and you are a Christian…um…I think there is more than that) is skewed - as evidenced by the biblically illiterate and spiritually immature Christians we have today, particularly in the west
Finally I also think speaking of churches which “meet needs” seems to indicate something lacking in one’s understanding of church.
July 12th, 2007 at 1:42 am
And one more thing Fabio and FaceLift:
Fabio you said:
“Their words are empty without love, and the reason this site will never be of much useful effect”
Get over yourself. You seem to have some expectations that everyone is on a mission to convert you to their way of thinking just like you are.
I advise you to go hang out at some old style pub and yarn sometimes. You might unexpectantly learn something.
July 12th, 2007 at 1:46 am
#471 - “not well understood by historians”
July 12th, 2007 at 6:00 am
Saint - You seem to have some expectations that everyone is on a mission to convert you to their way of thinking just like you are.
It appears that way to me, maybe I’m off - but lionfish (though he’s a great guy) is onto tithing, lance is onto Homo-accepta-phobia, Rev on doing something for the downandouters, Bec…well….you know…she’s gotta be onto something. CONVERT!!! ALL OF YOU - I AM RIGHT!!!!
July 12th, 2007 at 6:57 am
bec 456
Spot on, that’s why people like facelift piss me off, because he sees unforgiveness as some kind of sickness, that’s why he’s always talking of a cure, same as offence. Forgiveness is not some special thing, it’s just part of being a christian, you grow into it like anything else, sometimes it’s easy, sometimes it’s hard but it’s never going to be the same for everyone. The last thing you need is someone like facelift earbashing you that you’re sick and ‘here’s the cure, come on take it, it’ll be better, it’s going to be hard, don’t be silly now do what I say…..’
singer 459
Unreal, that is amazing, that would be so nice, I almost can’t believe it would happen.
lance 469
Smack on the money. It’s not until you leave it , get over it and look back at it that you see how bloody stupid it is. and now we can see by all these posts about the history of the last 30 years how segmented and political it all is, all the different movements and factions and streams of belief, people being cut off and ostracised. It’s not like christianity at all, well it’s not like the kind of christianity I live anyway.
July 12th, 2007 at 8:53 am
Facelift, Fabio - I’m sorry, I was reading your posts while doing something else at the same time and Saint is right, I got the two of you confused.
Fabio - I was probing your distinction between “more Biblical” and “more successful” churches. (Have I got who said what right now?)
Fabio…I guess I’m surprised when people respond to criticism of Hillsong with “yeah? Well this is what happens in the traditional church”. To me that looks like a defence/justification of Hillsong by reference to the sins/problems in the traditional church.
Saint, I found your post at 471 a great read (with (b), however, I think you’re talking about the alt worship movement, not the emerging church movement, and while there is overlap I don’t believe the two terms are interchangeable).
July 12th, 2007 at 9:07 am
ifIknewthen…
yeah, a lot of it is “bloody stupid”, and it can be segmented and political, with people being cut off and ostracised. However I don’t think it has to be like that, and in my immediate social circles it’s not. While I might have had some pentes say some completely obnoxious things about my own heritage, some of those people have also become very dear friends and have probably been just as enlightened by their friendship with me as I have been by my friendship with them. Amongst my friends there is immense diversity of opinion regarding theology, form of worship, etc etc. The thing that ties us together is our common interest in following Christ, our ability to get over ourselves (!!) and our willingness to at least TRY to listen to other perspectives (fabio and FaceLift might question whether any of this applies to me, but then they don’t know that my closest friends probably identify as pentecostal more than anything else!) We can have very robust “discussions” *cough* about sexuality, tongues, adult baptism vs infant baptism, communion, social justice cf. individula morality, etc etc ad nauseum. We might worship at different places on a Sunday, we might disagree on many things, but we can still live and work together as the body of Christ.
July 12th, 2007 at 9:12 am
In case it wasn’t clear, I think that a preparedness to at least TRY to “shut up and listen” is a pretty key part of building community. There are plenty of leaders in our churches in Australia - in both “traditional” and “pentecostal” churches - who don’t exhibit much willingness to do this.
July 12th, 2007 at 9:21 am
When we became christians, ie ‘except a man be born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God’ ‘These things are written so that you who believe may enter into eternal life’ plus many others, (just to clarify why I believe I am a christian for those who think they have the right to question) we lived in a small town at the end of nowhere in australia, we had no money, no job, no future, a totally screwed past, and we went to a church which had 6 people including us and a pastor and his wife. We plunged into the bible to find out who Jesus was, someone gave us a concordance and said use this, and away we went. We began to believe the things written about what we could ask for and what God could do and over the first year we saw examples in our own lives of basically eveything that happened in acts. then we moved to hills, Oh, I haven’t seen anyone raised from the dead yet.
One day I needed a spud, a carrot, a ham bone and a parsnip to add to our only food, a packet of dried soupmix. That night at prayer meeting ( 4 people..oh yeh ) a lady turned up with a bag and said God had told her to give it to us, sure enough, spud, carrot, parsnip, next morning a ham bone arrived via a mate who worked at the local pub. I never even asked for it, I thought the mix alone would be ok.
One day I was praying and asking God what to do about money as I didn’t have any, next minute someone dropped an envelope with 50 bucks in it on my doorstep and drove away. The thing was that whoever it was had spent hours decorating the envelope with designs and the very scripture I had received the day I was baptized in the holy spirit. I knew the person who dropped the dosh off, he had no idea of our circumstances and no one knew how much that verse meant to me, only God.
One day after trying in vain for 3 months to give up smoking and going thru hell I had a big row with my wife about it, after 2 hours of my bitching she looked me in the eye and said God just told me that if you shut up and let me pray for you he will heal you of smoking, so she prayed a short undramatic and fair dinkum prayer and I was instantly a non smoker, never to want or need or crave or even slightly look sideways at a smoke again. It took as long as it took the words to come out of her mouth.
One day the doctor told me that the skin disease I had was totally incurable, absolutely no chance of recovery, only ever increasing doses of drugs. Two weeks later I read,’ if you go to the elders and ask them to pray for you and anoint you with oil you will be healed’ So I went, there were no elders but the pastor did as I asked and a week later I was completely healed, the enormous scabs which I was so embarrassed about, which made the chemist gag when he saw them, were completely gone replaced by skin as smooth as a babies bum.
One day I got bogged down at the beach in the sand, the van was resting on the sills and there was no hope of extraction, I got my wife to hold the steering wheel and I got up the back and prayed for God to help me push it out, as I started to shove, the van lifted up in the sand and move the 10 feet or so to the hard ground and we drove home laughing our heads off.
One day Our friends came to visit bringing their bullie with them. It trotted straight in to our lounge , up to one of our dogs and began to kill it as bullies do by clamping their jaws on tight to it’s neck. Our dog was screaming as it was dying and it all happened so fast, my wife walked up to the fracas and shouted out ‘devil dog let go in the name of Jesus’ That dog instantly let go and ran out the door and we were able to tend to our thankfully still alive pet. The thing was, that 9 months earlier, before we were christians, the same thing happened with our other dog this time and it had taken me and my mate about 10 minutes of rolling around in the dust with our cut and bruised fingers prising the mongrel’s jaws apart.
One day my wife was whinging about fish because it was all we had to eat, and it was just little herrings we scored off the people on the wharf. So I tried cooking them a different way and she said it was ok but she was never going to get used to it, next morning there was a bloody sack of them outside our door which we had to fill this little freezer with. We just pissed ourselves laughing at God’s ’subtle’ lessons in acceptance.
One day we picked up this hitch hiker ( someone explain what that is to the young ones..) who we’d seen sleeping on the beach. We invited him into our place to stay and chill for a while, as we drove in past the church which was near our place he said, ‘oh no..you’re not @%% christians are you , when we replied yes he said he’d been trying to get away from God all over oz and every person who picked him up was a christian.
One day we realised that we knew every christian in the town because we were always meeting this one or that who had been disaffected or whatever. We didn’t know anything about church having come from a totally non church background. It seemed stupid to us that all these people believed in Jesus like us but never spoke to each other, so we decided to have a music day and barby and invite everyone. Because we were so new no one wanted to dissappoint us and be the cause of us backsliding (as if) they all came and after a few initial awkward (?) moments everyone started to join in. Soon a bloody great black cloud appeared from nowhere in a blue sky and it started to spit, my wife said completely innocently, ‘come on everyone let’s move to the church’, well no one could refuse so we raced over taking the instruments with us and carried on inside the building. All of a sudden the holy spirit seemed to fill the place
( hmm, read that before somewhere) and we all started to weep and be in awe of what was going on. From the next week the church was bloody near full and most of those people all came back to fellowship.
One day in church at the end of the talk, my wife went up the front and stood there. I couldn’t understand why she did it, there hadn’t been an invitation or anything. I thought she was nuts, any way the guy prayed for her and when we got home she said ‘why didn’t you come up?’ I said ‘Why would I have, why did you go up?’ She said ‘well the guy just asked everyone who wants more of the holy spirit to come up and pray’ I said, ‘no he didn’t, he never said anything’ She was adamant she’d heard it and we asked other people in the meeting they said no.
One night in perth it was pissing down with rain and we were on the way back home and starving. we were looking for a shop, it was late and nothing was open, next minute the overwhelming smell of bread filled our van ( some might say this was because we drove past a bakery) and we realised God was leading us to a bakery which we found. Still pouring down we got back in the van and were lost in some back street so we started praying and asking God how to find our way. No fair dinkum, I know it sounds like crap but it’s true, I know get a map, well I didn’t have one…We were driving around all these back roads when we saw this figure on a pushie soaking wet so we stopped and it was a woman who was crying, we spoke to her and prayed with her and she told us how to get back on vic rd and on we went.
We now just live with God in our lives in a most practical and simple way again, I look back at the diversion of hills and the kind of culture it is, the lance post type of stuff and I just can’t see me there,
Like everyone I could write a book about all the amazing things I’ve seen since becoming a christian but it all seems to be diluted these days into a show, or package or it seems to be so far away from that one-on-one with God, is it because we are all so self sufficient these days?
We never had a band or any of the necessities of a modern church, in fact they were irrelevant as church was the most boring 2 hours of the week, people used to get pissed off with us because of our simplicity and naiive trust. We used to go home after church and have a sing song ourselves because the holy spirit would come and make us feel he was near.
It’s true that one day we went to the prayer night and as we walked in my wife cried out ‘look everybody, it’s the shekinah cloud of glory’ and fell down on the floor weeping and laughing for joy oblivious to anyone’s disbelief. the other 3 of us just looked and saw an empty room, but she’d been studying it and so God showed her, that’s all.
This was all before big churches and programs and all the other bull that goes on, it’s a lot of hokum. I don’t reckon God needs any of it, nor do I reckon christians need it to be a christian.
July 12th, 2007 at 9:42 am
bec, 477, yeah I agree, since moving to where the anglican is much more the public face of christianity, and in a small place i’ve become really aware of a different type of care. There is not the emphasis on church size and people aren’t insecure in their christianity so they aren’t always earbashing you about this thing or that. It’s more of an unspoken solidarity based in a shared belief. Like last weekend I had an accident in the main street and my vehicle was smashed up. within about 10 seconds of it happening a client of mine who happens to be an anglican came out of his house and came to help, then his wife came and they were so nice to me I was blown away. I was ok and so was the other person but it was a mess and It was the calmness and love they showed which was amazing.
Some people may say that anyone would be like that, but none of the people in the pub came out, it was only those two and it was the christian thing behind it that was great, no fuss, I can’t really explain it but it’s like the hidden christianity.
One of my clients at the mo is a full on catholic and I’m learning heaps about them. It’s a completely different world, this person met mother theresa and has a photo to prove it. I’m still getting my head around it but the ammount of genuine care they have for others is seriously amazing, without the hype and razzzzzz.