Hillsong conference 2006
Sorry to be slow on the uptake on this, but Hillsong 2006 is up and running. Anyone who wants to post reviews, discussion or articles about the 2006 conference, do it in this thread (just so we can try to keep things together a bit).
Ta muchly.
July 12th, 2007 at 10:18 am
ifiknewthen, thanks for that extra long post. I read it all… after all the bickering that goes on here, sometimes it’s just nice to hear someones story. I was blessed by that, thank you.
July 12th, 2007 at 10:33 am
no worries mate, I think sometimes we need to just get back to actually why we love this Jesus, his contact with us as individuals. It’s a lot more simple than all our other concerns, notwithstanding the importance of debate. It’s retracing our journey to reinforce our strength and faith awareness. I do it all the time in thanks for where I’ve come from.
July 12th, 2007 at 10:40 am
ifiknewthen, I thank you too… you are right… I am often struck by how much God is more concerned with how much he loves us than how much we can love him.
July 12th, 2007 at 10:52 am
this time i mean it - ifiknewthen…that actually was a lovely post.
July 12th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
okay = I feel all warm and fuzzy now 0 Here is a link to John Mark McMilles _How he Loves Us”
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=131266631&MyToken=315b0c5a-428c-402b-9faf-fcc29348d706
July 12th, 2007 at 2:18 pm
ifiknewthen,
I enjoyed reading your post and I believe every word. Look I don’t doubt Christ and His ability to be all and supply all you need. But my faith crisis which I am still in the middle of, has a lot to do with how much the church needs to be accountable for dreadful behaviour, lack of care, exploitation, selfishness, greed etc etc that cause many “little ones to stumble”- as one pastor said to me “no one cares”- and my experience has shown this to be true, in the big cities anyway. Maybe it’s a city thing, I don’t know……..
July 12th, 2007 at 4:13 pm
The discussion on forgiveness a while back was interesting, and I think its a very complicated issue. Looking back I found that I went through “the 5 stages” of grief before I could even look at forgiveness (I wasnt involved with Hillsong, but with a couple of pente denominations over the years). I know this is pop-psychology but it was helpful to me :
1. Denial - “There’s nothing wrong with my church, no church is perfect …”
2. Anger - “Those pente shysters, etc. etc.”
3. Bargaining - “If you change things a bit here, I wont leave”
4. Depression - I had months of depression and chronic fatigue
5. Acceptance
I still go back through those steps every now and again. I think it was also helpful to realise that I had some responsibility for what happened to me. You cant live your life as a total victim, but you shouldnt also take all the responsibility and beat yourself up.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:29 pm
daisy, ak,gte, thank you, if I had to I could produce people to verify all of those stories and scores more, but you are right, it’s sad what happens, I think ‘it’s a city thng’ could have a bit to do with it, bit not really. Ironically, it was my own disaffection with hills which drove me back to the way it should be for me. just have to get through it.
July 12th, 2007 at 10:27 pm
Ifiknewthen …. I greatly value your post. A timely reminder indeed.
It is actually inspiring, I would love to be led by the Holy Spirit like that. However, God has moved in my life too. He told me about 14 years ago to stop smoking. He spoke very clearly and I resolved to follow him. I was at an annual church camp on the Gower Peninsular, Wales (so you have to read my comments with a Welsh accent … and yes I do love Rugby, I am carrying a couple of injuries at the moment!) and after the evening service, I went out onto the cliff top and looked across the bay and lit up a ciggie. God said “you’ve got to stop that right now” … I waqs a little surprised and asked “how about I finish this one?” He said “no, put it out!”
What do you do when that happens? I put it out of course. I went back into the camp and handed my lighter to a friend, who happened to be talking to a young woman who I didn’t know. She later told me that was when she first saw me as husband material.
Months before this, I had cried out to God and asked Him for a wife, because I didn’t trust myself to find one.
I ended up getting married to this woman who witnessed my obedience.
I couldn’t have picked a better soul-mate. Is this a coincidence? I think not.
Holding a physics degree, knowing how the universe is observably becoming more and more disordered, the c hances of coincidence are increasingly less likely.
I have three children, all girls, which of course means that in a few years I won’t have a bathroom, but I will have a large shed in the garden. I have been blessed more than I could possibly have imagined, even ten years ago.
Most recently, I had started a new job and was really not enjoying it. I was finding the office culture and the interpersonal relationships in the office very difficult. It was very oppressive. I said to my wife that I hated being there (on a wednesday evening) and she said “why not look for a job in (my old home town = 90 miles from where we were living)?”
Turns out that we hadn’t discussed it but were both thinking about moving back there. The following day I was given my marching orders. The following week I had an offer of an interview for a large company with an office in my old home town and I am now based there. School places are a big issue here but I got my 2 eldest girls into the same school! 10 minutes walk from where we live!
We still have to sell our house, and financially it’s not straightforward but we are trusting Abba Father in this, as we trusted Him for work and school.
We have had the opportunity to see church done a number of different ways and yet they were all pretty much the same …
20-25 minutes of ‘Praise’ … designed to help people think more about God than they think about other things (like keeping your children quiet until they go out to sunday school … or whatever it’s called this month)
20-25 minutes of ‘worship’ … when you may be focussing on God.
15-40 minutes of ‘ministry of the word’ where, if you are most fortunate, you actually get exegesis instead of eisegesis.
plus 5-10 minutes of real worship if God has spoken through his word.
I am being very cynical here, and I apologise if this isn’t your experience.
I think though that most independent evangelical churches these days (in the UK at least) spend a lot of time on the music, attempting to get the music ‘more professional’ more ’staged’ more ’slick’. The use of modern presentational techniques including the use of DVD.
Our old church, where we got married, has attempted to get into the 21st century and is using all these things, albeit in a slightly charming, amatuerish way.
However, I think we have all made a terrible mistake.
When a bishop said to Martin Luther “if you take away icons, saints, holy relics, penance, and so on, what will you be left with?”
Luther replied, “Jesus Christ. Man only needs Jesus Christ.”
Extra biblical teaching, eisegesis, glitzy presentations, focussing on the platform and even the hero preacher misses the point of it all. Man only needs Jesus Christ.
How this all plays out I haven’t worked out yet. However, I would say that a forum such as this is extremely important. Because truth is important.
We have to fight for it. Even if it’s fighting to be heard even when our opinion is unpopular. Even when our opinion is wrong.
Do we hunger and thirst after truth? Truth sets us free. We are free from legalism, if we want to be. We are free from license, if we want to be.
I love this forum because it has forced me to think. I am still thinking my way through things. It has shaken me from a complacent, arrogant mindset regarding ‘lifestyles’ etc. I would certainly not tell someone they aren’t saved because they are going to a certain ‘church’.
So, while I might disagree with Fabio or FaceLift, I wouldn’t want them to be so excluded or to feel so picked on that they stop putting their case forward. I am happy to call them christian brothers.
As far as church is concerned, I believe that the sole purpose of sunday worship is to worship God, and that we should do that which pleases Him. Him alone. If a worship service is aimed at unchurched or even the christian congregation, then we have lost something and Christ loses His pre-eminence.
I have found that the best worship times have been after someone has the ministered the Word so effectively that God has spoken through it and then the focus becomes entirely God and not some preacher or young worship leader who likes his guitar.
I want to experience reality, not manufactured superficiality. That’s my tuppence worth anyway.
Shalom! (in a welsh accent)
July 13th, 2007 at 1:56 am
Bull and ifiknewthen
thanks for sharing some of your story. We’ve been having a few testimonies at church on Sundays as well.
There is real power and blessing in being able to hear what God has done in people’s lives.
Thanks
MN
July 13th, 2007 at 8:33 am
That was a thoughtful tuppence well worth reading Bull.
July 13th, 2007 at 10:32 am
Onya Bull old son (to be read with an Ozzy accent) ripper post. Personal experience of God is what people can relate far better to than the rip out a text and throw it at them type of stuff that goes on here most of the time.
God does speak to us if we care to listen and when we do - wonderful things occur. I don’t believe in coincidence either Bull - things don’t just come together - they are put together, either by us or by God.
So whose next - tell us your stories of hearing from God, tell us about te ties when you had nothing but God to cling to and things happened that otherwise couldn’t have happened.
July 13th, 2007 at 11:17 am
I’d love to Greg.
At the moment I am still in the middle of the storm, wondering too often if ‘God’ even exists, knowing that He does, but the evidence at present points to the contrary. I am trying to find where I fit in the body of Christ but still can not find where ever that is. I would like to be honest with people and have been in the past but I have discovered I am in a place that frightens most christians. It’s not fun, I am trying to be patient but most days I feel like screaming.
Not a very inspiring story that, but it is honest. We are all in different places and they are not always faith filled, happy, clappy or fun places. It is very hard to find christian brothers or sisters who truely understand the dark places of the faith journey….
Oh and snapping out of it, doesn’t work either, Wow! it would be Awesome! There is light and shade in this journey of faith.
July 13th, 2007 at 11:27 am
Daisy,
it’s in the middle of the storm, in the darkness, that I have heard God speak to me most clearly. Perhaps it’s because I have nothing left, or because it’s only when I’m desperate that I shut up and listen. I appreciate Bull’s post but can’t identify with it at all. God has never spoken to me in such ways. God speaks to me in far more mundane ways than that (and I mean that in the sense of “every day” and easily explained away, rather than “boring”). Nevertheless, I do feel that God has spoken to me, and it’s been in the depths of darkness that I have perceived this most clearly.
So scream away. And if you want to do it a bit more privately, you’re more than welcome to get my email address from Dan or Phil.
July 13th, 2007 at 11:59 am
Thanks Bec, I appreciate the offer. I do tend to ’scream’ in solitutde. The dark places are very dreary for others and very difficult to articulate. I may read some C.S Lewis!! I do appreciate the offer. I would value your prayers. The point I am trying to make is that we are all so diverse, such individually crafted creations, our journeys so multi-layered and complex, that formula christianity which seems so prevalent presently in faith communities of all types can be quite counter productive for those who are some years into their faith journeys and understand that the ‘testing of faith’ is a most difficult trial. I used to wonder why so many adults seemed to drift away or no longer attend formalised church in their mid years. I understand now, and with churches even more focused on the ‘next generation’ ‘youth’ ‘young people’. Adults with perfunctionary relationships with church (formal) is a trend that I believe unfortunately will grow in leaps and bounds if churches do not become much more holistic and responsive to adults with difficult questions. In your mid years it seems all most churches are interested in is your wallet to fund their never ending building programs and empire building. Borriinng.
Church seems so geared to the young, nothing wrong with that per say, but I sometimes wonder if it is because young people tend to be more pliable more mouldable and tend not to ask so many of the really hard questions of church leadership…..A bit of a generalisation there I know, since many signposters are young people of tremendous insight.
July 13th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
That was a great post Bull, thanks, love the bit about meeting your wife, that is so God I reckon, His attention to detail is incredible. I’ve seen what you talk about in the church in UK,they are quite willing to jettision their identity and local relativity for some blond funky version they’ve met in Australia or the US. It’s sad but happens a lot. I happened to be at a function in wales the day after the brits won the world cup, it could be said I got a hard time, all in good humour though.
Daisy, my heart goes out to you, please hang in there and hold on. Have you thought of revisiting your own foundations and experiences in Christ from the early days. Maybe it would help you to focus on your own relationship and feel God’s care for you as well as your heart for the church to regain your strength. Don’t despair, keep reaching out to him.
July 13th, 2007 at 6:15 pm
‘Ain’t nodoby gonna steal my heart away’.. from Jesus,
This IS awesome !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRPct6s83iU
July 13th, 2007 at 6:17 pm
aaah, that will be nobody….tee heee
July 13th, 2007 at 9:43 pm
Thank you everyone for your generous comments.
I need to add a few things. It took months to get off the tobacco. It wasn’t an instantaneous thing, it involved personal prayer and people praying for me.
Even though God told ME to stop smoking, it doesn’t mean a blanket ban on everyone. I am not making a rule for everyone else to follow.
I haven’t heard God speak that clearly since then (about 14 years ago … now I feel old.
) until he took charge over our lives and moved us back to south Wales a few months ago. The best bit about that was I had complete confidence in Him.
This was especially after I read Hebrews. “The Lord Disciplines those He loves”. I was absolutely thrilled to read that … the day I was sacked. My wife was ‘awesome’ (hate that word … but very apt in this case.) She was altogether stronger than me. About three weeks after this experience I was offered a better job, with better pay and conditions!
BTW: I don’t tithe. If I did, there wouldn’t be food on the table, the kids wouldn’t have shoes etc. I digress.
I had been set free from a horrible workplace situation and am now in a fantastic workplace situation. For the time being, at least, I have been set free from worrying! about anything!
(probably because my eldest daughter is about 9. Give it a few years and I expect I’ll be trying to intimidate any boys who come calling! By the time she’s 17, I expect to be the one who is intimidated
)
Anyway, last night I came to an understanding while concentrating on Romans 11. Specifically when God said to Elijah “I have kept for myself 7000 who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” There has always been a remnant of Jews who have remained faithful to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Like a jigsaw puzzle falling into place, I saw that this can also refer to churches like CCC, Hillsong et al. Even traditionalist churches.
God is able to keep a remnant, faithful to Himself, even when the majority have hardened their hearts to Him. They are zealous for God, but their Zeal is not based on knowledge. (Romans 11 again.)
I know Paul is referring to the Jewish people. But the Jews had Pharisees who were rich and believed that they were wealthy because God had blessed them … they worked hard at keeping the commandments, and looked down their noses at ’sinners’ …. they were happy to divorce and remarry for any and every reason (like burning the dinner, which is why Jesus talked about it.). Sound like anyone in pentecostal leadership we know?
But God could save even these … Saul was a hebrew of the hebrews, a Pharisee of the pharisees. As touching the Law … blameless! Jesus made him an apostle to the gentiles.
Have the Jews fallen beyond recovery? Have CCC’ers, Hillsongers, … anglicans et al fallen beyond recovery? No. But we need to pray for them.
I suppose the point I want to make, and I am making it to myself is that we need to be especially humble, especially when we think we have got it right, and ‘they’ have got it wrong. It could be us who have made mistakes too. I find it’s far too easy for me to become arrogant and conceited. (and look down my nose at people whom Jesus shed his blood for)
When someone has been hurt by a system, it’s too easy (as has already been said elsewhere) to re-victimise the victim of Spiritual Abuse. We must never do that. Rather, we must rally round and build one another up.
This is what Signposts needs to do more of. Building up one another in faith, hope, and agape. Agape, seeing one anothers needs and meeting them. Everyone is a minister. The priesthood of all believers.
Shalom! (in a welsh accent … in case you missed it)
July 15th, 2007 at 5:32 pm
“The host in Hillsong conference 2007 in door 67, she treated me like rubbish.
And I thout.. *sigh* If only I were Darlene Zhech, she would treat me differently.”
From http://stob3r1.blogspot.com/2007/07/that-day-has-come.html
July 17th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
Hill$ong Conference speaker Ed Young Jr speaks candidly on the pitfalls of his life as a wanker on the lucrative speaking circuit.
http://www.stupidchurchpeople.com/2007/07/pastor-on-pastors.html
July 17th, 2007 at 4:29 pm
And watch the video of Pastor Ed with these words in your mind.
‘Ricky Gervais’ and ‘The Office’.
July 18th, 2007 at 7:01 am
Wow, that was really sad. It shows that these pastors are even more caught up in the system than the punters. And when the mid-life crisis hits, it must hit pretty hard for these guys. After spending years telling people they can have a life of significance, it must be hard to realise that whatever you do its insignificant.
I think Reve said in one of the threads that a lot of these leaders have bi-polar or manic-depressive personalities. This video must have been taken in his depressive phase when he “hears from God”.
There must be a better way than this, maybe a rotating leadership so no-one has the burden of being a Pastor for more than a few years?
July 18th, 2007 at 7:36 am
Sorry WT, which burden is that ?, it’s a career just like any other, a job, they are career christians, if they don’t like it they can change jobs just like me or anyone else. The whole thing about being significant is the snare they fall in to.
July 18th, 2007 at 9:07 am
Career christians: that encapsulates the treadmill beautifully.
It also explains behaviours - guarding the market share, disapproval of questions that may threaten ‘the brand’, organisational significance gained by holding positions within the organisation, great significance gained by being on boards, particularly board of directors, broadening the current consumer base, marketing strategies specifically aimed at target markets e.g. 13 - 30 year olds, the CEO mentality as opposed to servant leadership, building programs to improve organisational image/ public perceptions of product significance, organisational competition to gain a greater market share, generating profits through; up selling/ cradle to grave marketing/ monopoly of certain products/ seminars to market ’successful’ organisational strategic plans, volunteering as a means to increase human resources in cost effective manner - the church as organisation- not exactely what Jesus had in mind, well not from my readings of the scripture- there does not leave much room for spontanous and loving community of believers.
July 18th, 2007 at 10:36 am
Perhaps somewhere out there, there will be an answer to all of this church stuff. But really, isn’t carrer burnout common in every profession. And I don’t recall a lot of pastors in the late 60’s and 70’s suffering so much from all this. It is the commercialization of christianity that produces this. it carries down to the lowest member in the pew and the problem is “performance based religion”. the pressure to perform outwieghs the ability to perform, becasue the standard is NOT excellece it is perfection. Success is measured by size, growth and attendace, as if God were keeping count how many were in church today.
There is a lot of nagative about pasotrs and leaders and a lot of it is reasonable criticism. But what about the other side of the pulpit…
who wants to go to a church that is stuck where it was in 1955, that isn’t growing, that doesn’t have a full carpark(parking lot for the USA folks), still sings irrelevant hymns tothe sound of an organ, and is full of old foks waiting to die.
The expectation from th econsumer end is, give me more or I won’t come to your church. It’s not fancy enough, exciting enough. and were bored with it… so you better not be boring or were outa here. So it’s a catch 22, the sellers and the buyers are at fault.
I doubt the EC is the answer either - just more like a louder defining of the problems
July 18th, 2007 at 11:11 am
The emerging church at its worst is just acknowledging we need some new bells and whistles for a more discerning post modern consumer. The emerging church at its best redefines what a community of faith is, it calls for the re-imagining of leadership, a freedom of expression in worship and life style, a focus on wholistic spirituality rather than an event focussed spirituality, and a theology of mission that believes we are here to further the kingdom both in evangelism and compassion ministry.
It is my fear that the emerging church is in danger of continuing down a path of consumerism for a different type of people. But I find in the midst of the movement, or maybe on the fringe of it, much to be excited about. A growing group of people that believe in living prophetically and holistically, in communities that refuse to be defined by the consumerism, and violence of contemporary society. It is this group that I wish to be a member of, the new monastics, the christian anarchists, the radical discipleship crew, the emerging anabaptists. I am through with Christendom, and feel no compulsion to make nice, and get along.
rev
July 18th, 2007 at 2:02 pm
you know rev, thinking back on my days of youth in the church, I don’t recall a single minister griping about how hard it was to be a pastor. I work all the time, but i love it. I think that is becasue i waited until age 47 to start this and I have been building from the ground up. it is hard work but well worth it.
July 18th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
Maybe age does have something to do with it, akevin. Men in their 20’s and early 30’s think they are invincible, and through sheer brilliance and energy they can change the world. Then it all comes undone for us at about age 38-40. That’s what Pastor Ed was talking about in the video, its been my experience and I also read about it in Steve Biddulph’s book “Manhood”.
Perhaps if you started later you could avoid some of those pitfalls. I think with a bit of wise-leadership from older men, some of the younger ones could have avoided those pitfalls. But not when the message is constantly about how awesome you can become.
A few weeks ago a young guy stood up and spoke at the church I was attending. He spoke about how he was at Hillsong college and how tough it was etc. etc. I just felt sorry for him - that he was entering a system which would just exploit his youthful enthusiasm and willingness to sacrifice. I wanted to tell him to just cool it for a couple of years, live a little - not be so serious.
July 18th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
I just turned 41, I have been in ministry since I was 20, I have been hurt in many ways, I have been attacked by many different enemies, I have suffered both success and failure. I can honestly say I am more passionate, more hopeful and more radical now then I have ever been. I am not burnt out, but I do struggle with my body not able to keep up quite as well as it used to. I am more complete and fulfilled in ministry than I have ever been. Not sure what that does to your insights, but that is my experience.
I will say however that I find comfort in not being “the man” in the “you the man” kinda way. I have a wonderful community of people that take responsibility for their own lives, and are growing in the way, and helping me to do the same. And I am surrounded by young people that sometimes reluctantly are responding to their own empowerment in creative and dangerous ways.
rev