Hillsong conference 2006
Sorry to be slow on the uptake on this, but Hillsong 2006 is up and running. Anyone who wants to post reviews, discussion or articles about the 2006 conference, do it in this thread (just so we can try to keep things together a bit).
Ta muchly.
July 7th, 2006 at 10:53 pm
Wiggy, that is a bloody good way to ruin a monopoly game doing that!
I like my way…all you need is their mobile phone number and if you keep the amounts within the limits of believeable greed (that should read “Faith”) It ends up in the books…love offerings get paid out to third parties…then they end up short…then they try to chase it up…people get embarrased…they all get pissed off! Classic…
Quite frankly it is so classic i have to give all the glory to God. I am not that smart!
Another good one is to actually join one of the building programs by promising the huge amounts to qualify in the top elite group that gets breakfasts, books, weekends away etc and never pay.
July 7th, 2006 at 10:56 pm
God is actually stirring up something in side me about this whole church concept. i will let it brew for a little while longer and then i will spew it out in this blog somewhere and i’ll canvas opinions. Stay tuned!
July 8th, 2006 at 1:33 am
Neil, i’ve read your account of the Hillsong conference and I can’t understand why you went, seeing as you obviously don’t like Hillsong church? Why pay to go somewhere you disagree with so strongly?
July 8th, 2006 at 1:53 am
Some here might be interested to know (if you don’t already) that in tonights 7:45 meeting, on the final night of the conference, Brian thanked all those that had been a part of the music team over the past 20 years, helping to make it the success that it is today.
The very first person he thanked tonight was Geoff Bullock, for starting the idea of the conference, and for forcing him to come along to do a small leadership stream for the first few years.
They also did a ‘top ten’ of the most *successful* hillsong songs from the past 20 years, and Brian made mention that most of the top 10 at the moment were either Darlene’s or Geoffs songs.
Just thought you might like to know.
July 8th, 2006 at 1:55 am
One small step for man….
July 8th, 2006 at 2:35 am
“Neil, i’ve read your account of the Hillsong conference and I can’t understand why you went, seeing as you obviously don’t like Hillsong church? Why pay to go somewhere you disagree with so strongly?”
Neil, (Signposts’ answer to Sam Newman).. can answer this for himself..but I might have a go too.
It’s the same reason I went last night to Sunset Coast CLC last night (more to come on that)..
One thing that traumatic events can do is overpower you…to the point where you can feel that you’ve lost your sense of power in life.
Part of the healing journey can be facing up to the situation that overwhelmed you..and re-asserting control of your emotions.
For example…it can be a watershed moment in a sexual abuse survivor’s healing process…to confront their abuser (when they’re emotionally ready).
You may not get the apology you were hoping for….or there may be a complete denial of wrongdoing….but it’s important to enter the situation again..armed with a new level of knowledge…(that you were the abused one…and it wasn’t your fault you were abused).
After feeling very out of control in church situations..I’ve just again returned from another church outing….feeling in complete control once again..even after being thrust into a ….ummm……’lively’..discussion with some pastors (again…more on that to come later..once I’ve processed the whole night)..
It was a specialist post-traumatic stress counsellor who tipped me off to this ‘need to be back in control’ thing…and I think for various reasons…when the time is right…it’s important to come to some kind of peace about our past…even if others don’t understand our need to do that.
Putting dodgy bouncy bouncy credit card slips in ex-fiance’s name in Hill$ong collection buckets is one way of dealing with the real lingering anger that’s there.
Sometimes the pain over life events is so ever-present….that it doesn’t go away with some magic prayer to Jesus or even the most sincere desire to forgive.
One difference about Signposts and the church ..is that Signposts (I hope) is anchored in the real world.
July 8th, 2006 at 3:15 am
Thanks for your comment, Lance. I think I understand where you’re coming from…
…but I can’t help thinking (and I don’t know you or your personal experience / trauma, so this is purely theoretical) that gaining control over a painful situation isn’t the best way to deal with it.
Control in this way seems like a human strategy to deal with things that have damaged us; a way of balancing out the thing that made us feel out of control. We may feel victorious if we gain control over the situation or person, or vindicated or less vulnerable, but does it actually heal the original pain?
Jesus talked about surrendering our grievances to him (Romans 12:18-20 ) and forgiving our enemies:
Mark 11:24-26 (New International Version)
24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”[a]
Footnotes:
Mark 11:25 Some manuscripts sins. 26 But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your sins.
Forgiveness, according to http://www.dictionary.com means:
To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.
To renounce anger or resentment against.
To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).
Forgiveness isn’t easy but it actually relieves us from the pain and resentment that we feel when we’ve been unjustly treated. Someone once told me that we need to forgive for ourselves, not for the other person / people – because otherwise, we can end up stewing in our hurt and pain and resultant bitterness and never become whole again – everything is scewed by what hurt us.
I’ve found it REALLY hard to forgive in the past, but I got to the point where I decided to hand it over to God, because I trusted that if He tells us to, its probably the best way to go (and seeing as he created us, I trust he knows how to sort out our problems). I’ve found that it actually frees me from the pain and hurt and all other negative – its in God’s hands and out of my control, so it doesn’t pre-occupy my mind any more. I’m free.
If we don’t forgive, if we deal with pain by retaliating, or trying to control the situation, aren’t we just piling offense on top of offense? I don’t see how this ultimately heals the original wrong-doing… Is peace / healing really a matter of being in control?
July 8th, 2006 at 9:49 am
Frankly…I think your effort here ..to emotionally blackmail someone into forgiving someone else is unforgiveable…(though it be a popular pastime among Christians).
Christians know that the right thing to do is to get to a point of having forgiven someone else….but they don’t need you rubbing their nose in it…for having failed to reach the stage of forgiveness.
July 8th, 2006 at 10:10 am
Unforgivable is a touch harsh… perhaps he’s never been wounded to the point where his life falls apart… perhaps he can be trained! I’ll give it a go.
I think when a hurt goes beyond mere pain (bad as that can be) and tips into massive psychological injury, there is much to learn from psychological research and practices.
For example… someone who has been through war and has post traumatic stress may “forgive” the enemy to their heart’s content… but still wake up at night in a cold sweat with horrific nightmares. Or have a very public panic attack… shaking, sweating, heart racing etc… when they hear a helicopter fly overhead. Or go ballistic when someone creeps up behind them.
Repair of a major psychological injury is long, slow work… it’s in a different league to the more minor wounds all of us sustain. It’s like someone with clinical depression being advised to buck up and get on with it from someone who’s gone through a little bit of sadness. You’re really only equipped to give advice if you’ve been through a journey just as black… and if you have, you’ll know advice is not what they need.
I don’t know whether Neil has sustained massive psychological injury… maybe, maybe not. And of course I agree… we are called to forgive and it is a liberating thing. All I’m suggesting is… when the wounds are deep enough, striving to forgive is not enough… we need psychological help and a process to be made whole.
On another note… I’m glad for the collective entertainment of the masses that Lance made it to church… I eagerly await his next installment!
July 8th, 2006 at 10:30 am
Hey Lance,
Thanks for your support and my defence. I will have a go at doing that too sometime this weekend. Unfortunately. I have a life outside of my computer and the internet.
It seems MS has just got onto the Signposts train for whatever reason and I thank him/her for having the courage to contribute and speak his/her mind. We will see the proof of his/her sincerity if they hang around to discuss all the opinions that he/she has given.
I have answered a lot of the questions posed by MS elsewhere on signposts but point his/her attention to
http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/03/24/hillong-the-sequel/comment-page-33/#comment-142118
And yes Janet, I did receive massive psychological injury from Hill$ong and my ex fiance working in partnership it seems. Technically, I am suffering from a major clinical depression with anxiety and panic attacks frequently. Some for no apparent reason and some connected directly to Hill$ong and the ex. My doctors and counsellors are amazed that despite this I am actually an incredibly strong person with huge internal resources that have enabled me to keep caring for my children, hold down a job and not kill myself. Yes, I have gone very, very close to that!
What I have achieved this week has been nothing short of an amazing miracle! God has graced me in my weakness to not only survive the week but come out the end of it a winner and blessed to be clearly hearing His voice again!
Writing my little column each night has been one of the hardest things I have done. And yes this was once again the deep internal resources and character emerging. I didn’t want to expose myself to their hurt again! I didn’t want to relive it every night! I didn’t want to process the things I have processed!
I am quite stoic and have a habit of understating everything…very Australian male I know! Let me put it plain for once!
I am a fucking hero! I have been to Hell and back! I am a fucking legend!
I am the best bloody father you have ever met! You better bloody believe it!
I will address MS when I have time and when i am thinking clearly.
Meanwhile, I have a soccer game to go to and a whale watching date with a hot personal trainer. Hubba Hubba!
Oh yes! I am extremely handsome too!
July 8th, 2006 at 11:29 am
Good Post MS. Thanks. Though people cannot control the situation , we know that. Some practices have been very deceptive, and this Board has been good to build contacts and research the situation. Possibly also to warn others - even those who choose to stay within the Contemporary Church environment.
For me the greates thing to come out of all this - is a revelation that there is no ’spiritual superhero’. Leadership is just as depraved as I am.
Also that may be a break through Will. I hope so. (#67)
Big things start with small steps. Humility. Amongst other things.
July 8th, 2006 at 11:56 am
Neil, I’m really sorry to hear you’ve been to hell and back. Your inner strength is reflected both in your willingness to seek doctors and counsellors to help in dealing with your woundedness, and also in the grit you have evidenced in your parenting and working… and in surviving the intense therapy of a Hillsong Conference!
I’ve recently had an experience that has been deeply traumatic leaving me with panic attacks… I just never thought something like this would happen to me, because I have a pretty “cruisy” temperament. They don’t have a quick fix, psychologically speaking, dammit!!!
Funnily enough, although I wouldn’t wish this much pain on my worst enemy, I don’t regret going through it in a way… it renders one incapable of giving glib advice to those who suffer… and takes the suggestions about self care and setting limits with others a “known reality”, not an abstract ideal.
July 8th, 2006 at 12:54 pm
Will: “Brian thanked all those that had been a part of the music team over the past 20 years, helping to make it the success that it is today.”
Lionfish: “Also that may be a break through Will. I hope so. (#67)
I’m sorry boys, but speaking as one of the above said team members, it is easy to make magnaminous statements in front of a crowd who are applauding you as some type of hero. It’s a lot different to pick up a phone & speak to those team members who you have yelled at, preached about & shunned, to apologise or at the very least - aknowledge them.
This “commendation” means nothing to me.
July 8th, 2006 at 12:56 pm
Neil & Lance - very impressed at both of your journalistic outings & understand fully the feeling of walking into the lions den.
Can’t wait for your report Lance!
July 8th, 2006 at 1:36 pm
“I’m sorry boys, but speaking as one of the above said team members, it is easy to make magnaminous statements in front of a crowd who are applauding you as some type of hero. It’s a lot different to pick up a phone & speak to those team members who you have yelled at, preached about & shunned, to apologise or at the very least - aknowledge them.
This “commendation” means nothing to me.”
I didn’t want to make a comment about Brian’s gesture..until those directly involved had the chance to respond.
For Brian to be able to do that is a breakthrough.
He’s gone from ‘the name Hill$ong came up somewhere between the three of us’…to “Brian thanked all those that had been a part of the music team over the past 20 years, helping to make it the success that it is today. The very first person he thanked tonight was Geoff Bullock, for starting the idea of the conference, and for forcing him to come along to do a small leadership stream for the first few years.”
I would suggest that it is evidence that…combined with the lack of savage response to the feature piece in the Weekend Australian (the high cost of faith) ……that the article did indeed rattle Brian…at least a bit.
However, I’ve learnt enough about Brian Houston to know that Brian was doing was for Brian……a bit more public re-writing of history to give the false impression that everything is hunky-dory at Hill$ongtown. That’s the way narcissists operate….while continuing to display no empathy for others.
It may be some kind of starting point on the road to Hill$ong recognising its own dysfunctionality in how it deals with people….but it certainly lacked any demonstration of remorse or regret (there’ll be no admission of regret..because that’s one of Brian’s ’seven deadly sins’ of course..)
I made the comment ‘one small step for man’…to indicate that it really was like getting man to the moon… to get that one small step from Brian.
But it’s some evidence that even arrogant and haughty pastors must succumb eventually to relentless pressure.
And so the battle goes on.
July 8th, 2006 at 3:17 pm
I am suprised that Brain thanked Geoff. It does smell a little of the rewriting history that Lance talks about.
Before the main sessions each morning and night at the conference they would play a loop of video on the screens. They had a 2 minute bit on the 20 years history thing. They flashed up pictures of Brian and a few key speakers over the years and Darlene with a mullet etc. No photos of Geoff! Is that because the 20 years of Hill$ong conference only started in 1996 or is it that all photos of Geoff were taken to the tip along with Geoff’s Cd’s or was it because the photographic camera was only invented by MR Kodak in 1996? Or was it because on of the Key speakers asked him about Geoff Bullock and embarrased him into mentioning him.
Who knows? I doubt that the motive was sincere. I wish it was. Brain has so much PR Spin going on from some very poor PR people. I am in the PR business I know how it works…
I’m with Jane on this!
July 8th, 2006 at 3:25 pm
The Mean Value Of The ‘Nasty Boss’.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/Movies/07/07/mean.bosses.ap/index.html
“Of course, if you’re a mean boss, it’s a lot easier in the 21st century to have your capricious ways exposed to the public. Internal staff memos find their way to the Web within seconds. Juicy anecdotes are e-mailed round the world.
But the harm to these bosses from such bad publicity is minimal, analysts say. “Certainly, the behavior of nasty bosses is way more public than it used to be,” says Jeffrey Pfeffer, a professor at Stanford’s Graduate School of Business. “But does it have consequences? I just don’t see it.”
Pfeffer, who teaches a course on corporate power, says he’s always trying to convince his students that their “just world” hypothesis — in order to get ahead, you have to behave well — is extremely naive.
“People don’t understand the extent,” Pfeffer says, “to which people simply want to associate with the rich, powerful and famous.”
July 8th, 2006 at 4:04 pm
MS,
I have no problem with forgiving my ex fiance and Hill$ong. What you may read as bitterness is probably a hurt heart. I actually have decided to forgive both my ex fiance and Hill$ong a long time ago. But in a twist of that guy with Jesus….I have forgiven but Jesus help me with myunforgiveness. For me it is all a big process. I am in a mixing pot of feelings, decisions to forgive and mental illness and I am working through it in a positive way!
As for Lance saying you are unforgivable…well, I think that is a bit harsh! Niave and ignorant? Definitely! And I am not calling you names MS.
MS I respect you and your opinion but i don’t think you had all the facts at hand. Perhaps you might like to reconsider on a deeper level?
Control is not about controlling the situation but me being in control of myself. My feelings, my emotions, my spirit! As for my little trick with the credit card slip; no body gets hurt, and i have a little fun causing a little mayhem. It is in no way a retaliation! If I wanted revenge it would be with an AK47 or somesuch thing whatever that is. I am not a half hearted guy!
July 8th, 2006 at 9:06 pm
Well it seems MS was a two hit wonder! And I was finding it so hard to sleep.
July 8th, 2006 at 10:57 pm
Sunset Coast CLC Friday Night Fever.
When I walked into Sunset Coast’s 7pm service last night (fashionably late) ..I knew I was in for an interesting night when pastor Sue Keehan …duing a 5 minute offering mini-sermon ..was regurgitating Brian Houston’s teaching at Hill$ong Conference about budgeting being a ‘moral statement’.
Sue re-told Brian’s teaching as ‘what would you do if Jesus knocked at the door and was asking about your budget’….instead of ‘what if God sat you down at the judgement and asked you about your budget’…..but Pastor Sue repeated almost verbatim what Brian taught at Conference, and what we’d discussed here at Signposts.
So I set my Bullshit Detector to ‘vibrate’..and I had a stimulating evening…I can tell you.
From the church’s website…
http://www.sunsetcoastclc.com.au/about/history.asp
“Pastor Gerard and Sue (Keehan) were originally on the staff of the Hillsong Church in Sydney. They were sent out in 1992 to plant London Christian Life Centre which later became London Hillsong Church. They also supported and continue to support the Hillsong Church in Kiev in the Ukraine.
In October 1998 they also planted the exciting Sunset Coast Christian Life Centre. Since that time the church has grown to over 800 members…”
I was told later that I’d arrived at Sunset Coast’s Friday night ‘Outreach’ service….which always makes me wonder if these churches also have a ‘Piss Off And Don’t Bother Us’ service.
I managed to avoid two Seat Nazis …one of whom seemed slightly alarmed that I’d declined her insistent offer to sit closer to the front.
“No…one of these empty chairs up the back would be fine thanks”.
It turned out I was sitting in the seats reserved for the worship team….so presumably..as a result…God was killing a kitten somewhere…..actually..several kittens, because the worship team members themselves were sitting where they wanted too..and not in their designated chairs.
The word ‘Jesus’ written in that curly Hill$ong-type font… was super-imposed on the wall behind the worship team…(who were obviously over their kitten-guilt by now) as they belted out some generic praise song.
I pondered the offering envelope conveniently placed on the seat next to me…
SUNSET COAST CLC…BUILDING PEOPLE …BUILDING THE FUTURE.
( ) Tithe/Offering
( ) Missions
( ) Building Fund
( ) Other
Please print your details in block letters and nominate area of giving by ticking the box and completing the necessary details.
Card Holders Name:________________________________
Telephone:_______________________________________
Expiry Date:______________________________________
Signature:________________________________________
( ) Bankcard ( ) Mastercard ( ) Visa
( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( )
With the amount of $_______________________________
PO BOX 973 JOONDALUP BUSINESS DISTRICT 6919 TEL: 9301 0733
I thought….’hmmm….I could house a stray homeless ant with that’..so I souvenired the envelope.
During her tithe offering mini-sermon…pastor Sue bizarrely used this verse on the big screen (there were two big screens..either side of the stage.)
Matthew 6.
“19″Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”
So Pastor Sue was basically saying that we should store up for ourselves treasures in heaven….by storing up for ourselves treasures on earth (the tithe).and using that verse as the proof text.
The only thing I can think of…is that she believes ‘treasures in heaven’…somehow means the received offering.
Maybe someone else can help me with how Pastor Sue got it all arse-about…by focussing on money..and using a verse that says not to focus on riches….to …ummm….focus on riches…(and yes…she did use the ‘p’ word…’prosperity’).
People mostly chatted during pastor Sue’s talk on giving and ignored her anyway…so that was encouraging.
So we then got to the star attraction for the night…who was youth pastor Luke Gilbert.
Luke is 25….just married…(just back from honeymoon…’awww..I missed you guys’)…and according to the newsletter handout….Luke spoke on the ‘hot topic’ of ‘purity’..the previous week…..you know…one of those youth pastors you buy in packets of 5.
Luke’s sermon last night was pretty line and length for a suburban penty youth-oriented service……stay on track with God….don’t stray from the course….God’s got an amazing plan for your life…..
I wasn’t taking a lot of notice of the sermon…because I was fascinated by the distraction of people yelling out through the service…..’yeah’….’wooh!’….’awesome’ …’c'mon’…’preach it’….etc…which just became overly funny in the end.
As previously discussed on Signposts…it was obviously a directive from staff to the volunteers to do the whooping and hollering…because they always came from the same place…..the front rows..and the sound and video desk at the back.
I laughed out loud at one point…when a couple of the ‘come ons!’…were a little bit too Lleyton Hewitt-esque in their over-enthusiasm.
Another comedic highlight was after pastor Luke had been getting the ‘yeahs’..and ‘preach its’…as he was telling people what they should be doing for God.
He shifted gears ..and told people what they should NOT do…and sure enough…the diehards were still yelling out….’yeah’….’yeah’….’let’s go’…..as they totally missed the point and the change in tack.
So anyway…..Pastor Luke does the altar call….’everybody’s eyes closed….heads bowed…I don’t want to see anyone looking around’…etc….and the people who end up getting hounded out of their chairs get the obligatory round of applause.
And then we had another generic praise song to finish off the formal part of the service…and as people were bopping away…singing ‘praise you…praise you…’ I was reminded of Jesus saying..
John 5:41 “I do not accept praise from men.”
or from ‘The Message’.
“41-44″I’m not interested in crowd approval. And do you know why? Because I know you and your crowds. I know that love, especially God’s love, is not on your working agenda. I came with the authority of my Father, and you either dismiss me or avoid me. If another came, acting self-important, you would welcome him with open arms. How do you expect to get anywhere with God when you spend all your time jockeying for position with each other, ranking your rivals and ignoring God?”
So, after the final song….I try and make my escape.
I got past one of the original Seat Nazis…and was nearly out the door…when I was collared by one of the leaders ..who insisted I have a free coffee.
Now…how the hell do I summarise the following 20 minutes of intense discussion with three senior people at Sunset Coast?
Hmm…
Basically…I put it on the table…very early…that part of the reason why I was there…was to get some clue as to why another church in the region had been getting a stream of spiritually-abused refugees from Sunset Coast.
I shared with them a strong picture that I sensed during the service.
I felt the difference between Sunset Coast’s understanding of Christianity …and my understanding of Christianity..is that Sunset Coast believes the Christian world is flat…and I believe to be round.
What i meant was…..youth pastor luke was saying that if you don’t follow the ways of God…..then you fall off the mountain.
Essentially…these churches believe that if you stray too far….like on a flat earth…you fall off and are destroyed……as in …’aahhhhhhhhh…thoomp’.
They denied they believed that…(of course…even though that’s what they always preach..and effectively did again last night…there was little mention of grace or God’s faithfulness…it’s all about what we do)…
So… I put to them that…no….I believed the earth was round….and that God has established things so that it’s impossible to ‘fall off’ or fall away. You can move into the shadows..(as day turns to night and back to day)… but our God is faithful when we are not.
They weren’t buying it.
In the end….I carried on most of the discussion with pastor John Kipps…(by the looks of it their ‘powercell’ pastor).
He/they could not grasp the concept of unmerited/undeserved grace.
I asked him how he believed people were justified before God.
He gave a stock standard evengelical response - by faith in the sacrifice of Jesus.
Then I managed to get out of him…that he believes that when you sin..you LOSE FAITH..and THEREFORE lose SALVATION..until you return to full faith…
He likened it to being out of relationship with your wife…..that when you are out of good relationship…then that has consequences.
I kept putting it to him..that you can’t super-impose the attributes of his wife..on to God.
God is God. He IS faithful when we are NOT.
I tried again….pointing to Christ’s blood being the ink on the new covenant that cements a believer’s eternal life with God…
Nup…..stilll wasn’t buying it.
Pastor John kept saying that people make choices…and there were many people in church who were making the correct choices….
He said if someone was prepared to make the right choices..then he would happily take their phone call..and discuss their walk with God……as he does every week….but he would not initiate such a call.
There is no…’Jesus leaving the 99 sheep…to go after the lost sheep or the lost coin’ in this church.
I told them that their church …like most churches …create a culture of winners and losers (..the pastors kept reeling off all the winners in their church…to justify that they were doing the right thing).
But they could not comprehend that they were creating losers….
I did quite well in not swearing for most of the conversation…but in the end….I summarised their attitude as…..’to the winners….bless you…to the losers…stiff shit’.
I don’t think they appreciated that…
Yes….the gay thing did come up….and Pastor John Kipps dropped Sy Rogers’ name.
Pastor John said without hesitating…’we love gays’….and when I asked him how they would minister to a gay person…..he said….we would encourage them to be married to someone of the opposite sex..as Sy Rogers has done.’
Well…there..for most gay people …is a losing situation being created right there.
One thing that was clear from being at Sunset Coast CLC..is that the welcome they give to people is first class.
Even the young people who are scared of visitors and normally snob you…were going out of their way to say ‘hello’ and introduce themselves.
So they’ve got the welcome thing down pat…(in the church building that is….the same people snobbed me later at McDonald’s).
Obviously the stream of spiritually-abused refugees from Sunset Coast is being prompted by something that happens after the introduction to the church..and before they’re staggering out the door in tears.
Their use of the bible last night was extremely poor…so poor theology must be leading to poor actions within the church..somewhere..somehow…….wouldn’t mind hearing from a Sunset Coast refugee.
Gut feeling is that it’s a standard ‘bait and switch’ evangelism church…that baits visitors with smiles and coffee….and then switches to law and legalism once they’re in the door and secured in the spiritual strait jacket.
The absolute highlight of the night though…
I have this routine that I’ve developed in online discussions with pastors …(similar with what I try and fail to do with Homer here) where I do the Romans 2 thing..and get them to see that they are in the same boat as the ‘naughty’ sinners….and are just as reliant on God’s unmerited grace through faith in Christ Jesus..as the ‘worst’ of sinners…(Romans 2’s not in Homer’s bible…so there is a bit of a problem there…but I digress..)
I asked Pastor John Kipps …in the middle of our discussion about people losing their relationship with God when they sin……..”so….when was the last time you sinned?”
Pastor John literally jumps..and his head tilts back….and he says…’well….that’s pretty direct.”
I pressed him…and eventually he came up with the standard…’my sin is between me and God’.
I countered with….’so why are pastors up on stage all the time..harping on about the specific sins and wrongdoings of the congregation…if it’s ‘between them and God’?…”
It was clear that this is a ‘yes pastor.no pastor’ situation…where he and the staff are the gurus….and I startled him with a question about his own sin..that obviously never gets asked of him in this church.
So…..I’ve got to say..it was nice to step back into that loopy kind of environment….and not be affected by it. I felt quite refreshed at the end of the evening.
Thank you Jesus for setting me free from the bullshit of pastors.
A final piece of unsolicited advice to the pastors at Sunset Coast.
For an ‘outreach’ service….can all of the bullshit on the stage..and make the whole night just a relaxed…’welcome’ night…
I would have liked the opportunity to get to know some of the non-pastor (ie. non-arrogant) people around the church…but your highly-structured bullshit and wank didn’t allow for that.
July 8th, 2006 at 11:36 pm
Well done Lance!
I am impressed! Well done for getting though unscathed!
Lance says:
“Even the young people who are scared of visitors and normally snob you…were going out of their way to say ‘hello’ and introduce themselves.
So they’ve got the welcome thing down pat…(in the church building that is….the same people snobbed me later at McDonald’s).”
This is scary Lance! You eat at McDonalds?
July 8th, 2006 at 11:46 pm
Lance.
Matthew 6:19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”
They tend to use that verse a lot at Hillsong, basically as a way of saying don’t get too attached to your possessions here on earth. When you give money to the church and its ministries it stores up ‘treasures’ in heaven, and its better to give and have treasures in heaven, than hold onto your stuff here on earth, where you can’t take them with you. Learn to be generous to help others.
July 9th, 2006 at 12:06 am
You could make a living as a Hill$ong spin interpreter.
I’m sorry, I’m still just learning the language.
July 9th, 2006 at 1:06 am
I “love” the whole “amazing” welcome thing…
When we started at an AOG church (we left after 6 months), the first welcome was the friendliest people ever were to us…we were given coffee, “courted” by the coolest people in the church, and then the exceptionally cool youth leader, walked us to our car…and we weren’t even youth!
But alas…that was about the friendliest it ever got. We soon learned that “friendliest” had a cost…and unless we were prepared to pay up with our money and time, we would pretty quickly be shafted…we were told that there were three levels in the church: the leaders, the workers and the servers. Because we were in the worship team, we were deemed “workers” and told that if were very good boys and girls, we may one day be promoted to being a leader (bottom tier of course)….ahhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
The only question I have…why did it take us 6 months to leave???
July 9th, 2006 at 10:08 am
Lance
You made me laugh - if I didn’t laugh I would cry at the ignorance and stupidity - please note I have to confess that I actually knew Sue and Gerad in my former life
But what about the overused cliche of the pastor’s wife who like her husband really doesn’t have any training of qualifications to do the job but gets the title of pastor anyway . If you study to be an engineer its takes how long 4 years ? Why do people think that anybody can be a minister ? This is what we get - someone advising gay people that they should get married .
July 9th, 2006 at 1:12 pm
Oops..left something out…
When they had the altar call at Sunset Coast CLC….right after everyone had been ordered to close their eyes and not look around (I ignored the directive of course)…without the congregation knowing…they ever so slightly dimmed the lights in the auditorium…so the place had a different feel to it by the time they opened their eyes.
July 9th, 2006 at 3:02 pm
Katherine,,
You state:
That has been something I noticed, and one of my key concerns during my foray from the mainstream church - to the contemporary church - back into the mainstream church.
In one Pentecostal Church I visited - they actually warned against people attending ‘Bible College’ because the will “lose their fire”. Yes the Ledaer said “I have seen it time and time again” (with sad look in eyes).
Another Church, a pastor told me that he reads mostly books about CEO’s. The mind of a Pastor is not the mind of a CEO.
Now this is the interesting thing. In one Conetporary Church denomination, I know that atleast one person is diligently questioning the leadership on the doctrine of tithing - and when they are backed into a corner with good doctrine - they stonewall the converstaion and will not deal with the issue head-on. They do not have the expertise.
If you needed a tooth pulled - you go to a trained tooth specialist. If you need your tax done you go to a qualified accountant.
I am amzed at how many who go to unqualified back-yard operators for S Spiritual Counsel and in many respects ’spiritual surgery’.
Don’t give me the old Pentecostal line “Well the Disciples where not qualified” … Bullshit.
They learned directly from the Master himself with three years of training - and even then God had to call St Paul who was highly qualified in the Jewish scritures to write most of the New Testament to explain the Gospel of Liberty… if you read it peoperly - even St Peter was in danger of being taken off track by the legalists and ‘freedom stealers’.
July 9th, 2006 at 3:25 pm
Lance - I just drove past Sunset Coast CLC on my way back from “Go Bananna’s”. (Here is a tip Neil, instead of spending your time a HS - spend some time in a kids playground and meet some GYM’s … “Gorgeous Young Mums”).
I could not help notice the “You Are Welcome” signage on the side of the Building … using smiling, happy, young, affluent good-looking people - (one white, one asian, one negro) straight out of a stock professional marketing communications photo library … obviously not the people who attend the Church.
I notcied that at Riverview as well. The smiley people on the tupperware styled brochures where the exactly the same people as those on the sign of the Metro food court in Perth.
Does this mean that you don’t have to be a Christian to get this happy?
Do you have to aspire to look like this even though these people may not be Christians but are happy really due to their looks and prosperity???
Maybe its not Christianity that makes you happy after-all …?
July 9th, 2006 at 5:16 pm
“I just drove past Sunset Coast CLC on my way back from “Go Bananna’s”.
Were the two threatening-looking over-sized bouncers still out the front of the (Christian City Church-affiliated) Joondalup City Church…next door to Sunset Coast CLC….?
Honestly…the Joondalup City Church bouncers looked like they were guarding a Kings Cross strip club….and they could have been for all I know…because when I glanced inside ..the lighting was all purple…and all you could hear and feel from outside was thoomp..thoomp..thoomp ..doof ..doof…doof music.
Even the roller-skating rink further along Winton Road was much less threatening.
July 9th, 2006 at 5:32 pm
I neglected to post the final report on Hill$ong Conference by Perth Baptist pastor Mark Edwards..who last week burst out of the closet as a fully signed-up Hill$song hell-raiser.
Bedford Baptist won’t know what’s hit it.
http://marked35.blogspot.com/2006/07/hillsong-conference-friday-2006-filled.html
“Heading home tommorow after picking up some more presents for my beautiful wife and children. Having a understanding wife, who is willing to let me go for the week, and is such a competant mum really helps.
Reinhold Bonke 9.30am “How we make God visible”
Bonke spoke using various bible passages (Is 6, Mark 16, Exodus 14) on how God is made visible, despite being invisible. Obviously it is because we are to make Him visible. Bonke encouraged us to be like the disciple Peter who had to call out to Jesus, and then get out of the boat to walk on water.
Peter challenged Jesus, “can I come?”
The focus of the miracle was on the faith of Peter (despite his subsequent doubt)
In other words we are to understand that we have a responsibility to show Jesus and His power, it is through us He chooses to work.
Franklin Jentzen “”The seventh sneeze”
Have a guess where this sermon title comes from? Seriously, where in the Bible does it mention someone sneezing seven times?
Look up 2 Kings 4.32
This was the best sermons I have heard Franklin preach. Wonderful, insightful message on handling pressure and the contrast between the flesh and the spirit. He talked about how the sneeze is an involuntary expulsion of something unwanted. The boy came alive after sneezing seven times.
Franklin then went into the New Testament and then proceeded to give a wonderful overview of the difficulties, the hindrances, the early church faced. It was so interesting. Normally we hear how victorious and overcoming the early church was, but Franklin showed us how in fact there were 7 (at least) times the church was hindered.
Here are only some of the key ones….
Acts 5 Greed
Acts 6 “There arose a murmuring”
Acts 8 Fear
Acts 10 Racial predjuice
Franklin is such a passionate preacher, try to resist getting swept up into his message if you can! I could not. This was a moving and challenging message.
Bayliss Connor
Houston had his customary sore throat. (I have been coming for 6 years now, and he always gets a sore throat). Bobbie was not his fill in preacher (as she often is) but he called upon Baylis to preach.
He spoke on 2 Corinthians 6, Ps 119 and Is 54
His basic message was covered by Bruce Wilkinson in the prayer of Jabez, which Bayliss referenced and mentioned.
He called us to have a willingness to deal with manure (!), which provided perhaps a more balanced view than Wilkinson gave us.
It was a really encouraging message because he talked about the incredible difficulties his church has had in its relocation process. The council took them to court and they had incredible legal bills which were necesary because of some legal issue where the council try to take the property and do not need to give any compensation. The process of relocation was explained and was a four year process. With some churches only telling part of the story, it was great to hear the difficulties faced by this church.
One another incidental quote he gave was a beauty.
“God had a family before He had a church”
Yes, and important to remember what is most important.
Home and back to reality tommorow. Really refreshed and looking forward to preaching some of this stuff.”