Hillsong conference 2006
Sorry to be slow on the uptake on this, but Hillsong 2006 is up and running. Anyone who wants to post reviews, discussion or articles about the 2006 conference, do it in this thread (just so we can try to keep things together a bit).
Ta muchly.
August 1st, 2006 at 9:36 am
Oh No!
August 1st, 2006 at 9:45 am
hmmmm
How about Hillsong cricket balls, no matter how you bowl there is always a wicked spin on it!!!
How about Christian lingerie for kingdom women called porn again.
How about the heavenly wallet, where the bilfold and bankcard holders are titled heaven and paradise, so that we can store up treasures in heaven!!!
How about the consumerist bible, that omits any passages that are not conducive to our way of life?
Or the Mel Gibson bible, that puts the word dirty before every mention of jews
rev
August 1st, 2006 at 9:50 am
LOL!
August 1st, 2006 at 2:22 pm
Was wondering whether the conference covered Hillsongs committment to the christian park in israel.BH attended the inauguration of this prject a couple of years ago.Any have any up dated news of HS involvenet?
August 1st, 2006 at 2:54 pm
regarding Houston and Israel - this from http://www.christian-witness.org/active/mail/y_letter35.html
Last year’s Leadership Now, Hillsong’s official communiqué to pastors, contains a glossy front cover picture of Brian Houston shaking hands with Ariel Sharon.
Certainly it was a photo opportunity not to be missed! Now almost twelve months later things are settling down and the truth is starting to emerge.
Maybe Brian Houston, President of AoG in Australia should have been more discerning and circumspect in his selfpromotional efforts for at least two reasons, both of them “money related” – well in a sort of way. Will anyone ever forget that Brian’s book You Need More Money audaciously claimed that the bottom line was Bible based? — Hmmm!
REASON 1: Israeli Tourism — the scouts are always out BBC, UK – Jan. 11, 2006: “Israel is pulling out of a $50 million deal with US — TV evangelist Pat Robertson after he said Ariel Sharon’s stroke was divine retribution.”
“Tourism Ministry spokesman Ido Hartuv said Israel would not sign a contract with Mr Robertson to build a biblical theme park by the Sea of Galilee.” So that was why Brian and seven other “top” Evangelical leaders were there.
It was all to do with tourism and money. Pat Roberson has apologised for his remark about Sharon maybe in an attempt to climb back on board. The BBC report (see above) claimed that Robertson’s “remarks were condemned by the US government and American Jewish groups. Mr Robertson was … hoping to build the Galilee World Heritage Park” —
Heritage Parks — doesn’t that revive memories of another “evangelical fi asco” that was money driven — PTL and Heritage USA?
REASON 2: Bad company corrupts good manners
Inside Leadership Now (2005) is a picture of eight so-called international evangelical leaders, including Brian and Bobby Houston, the only woman in the group.
Among the eight is Paul Crouch head of the multi-million dollar Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN). Could Crouch be a likely replacement for Robertson? TBN certainly has the coverage and cash – BUT …. Read on (note dates). From the Los Angeles Times September 12, 2004
Copyright © 2004, The Los Angeles Times (http:// http://www.latimes.com):
August 1st, 2006 at 3:03 pm
the link is incomplete bro
rev
August 1st, 2006 at 3:58 pm
(http://www.latimes.com):
August 3rd, 2006 at 5:42 pm
=========
#106
Michelle Says:
July 10th, 2006 at 12:42 pm
But the problem is, the older people do become indoctrinated. They listen to the continual messages over and over again and (I’m generalising here) the majority of them don’t read their Bibles themselves, and if they do, and something causes them to question what the Pastor says, they have been so conditioned to the ‘authority’, ‘covering’, ‘touch not the Lord’s anointed’ lines that they discount the niggling doubts and just think “well, that’s not what Pastor… says, and he’d know”.
========
The book Who is your Covering ? , “A Fresh Look at Leadership, Authority, and Accountability”
by Frank Viola, uncovers (pun intended) this false ‘covering’ teaching.
“Tens of thousands of believers have been damaged by authoritarian leadership structures. Very often, these structures have been justified by an imprisoning teaching known as covering.
In this volume, Viola takes dead aim at this spurious teaching. In addition, he answers every conceivable question that is raised about how leadership, authority, and accountability functioned in the early church.
If you have been damaged by authoritarian leadership, you will find liberation and freedom in these pages!”
All too often, people are ‘controlled’ by fear, due to associated teaching like ‘if you leave our church, God won’t “protect” you’. Yeh right, is God omnipresent, or is His presence and power ‘limited’ in some way, that it cannot go beyond bricks and mortar.
August 5th, 2006 at 12:28 pm
Well I have received a response from Joel A’Bell:
“From: Joel
Date: Aug 5, 2006 12:38 PM Flag spam/abuse. [ ? ]
Subject: RE: RE: Sad how you have changed.
Body: Hi Neil,
Seems like you dont understand that attacking Hillsong (or any church) is actually attacking me.
You say nobody has asked you a question but I saw what you wrote about me, when you visited us at Hiilsong Conference, and you posted that for the world to see, without ever talking to me first.
You assumed (and put spin) what I said from the platform that night and we are only talking about it now because I have brought it up!
If you love Jesus now more than ever, why do your comments lack the love you speak of?
Joel. ”
What do you think?
August 5th, 2006 at 1:25 pm
“Seems like you dont understand that attacking Hillsong (or any church) is actually attacking me.”
Well, yes and no…
If you’re attacking Hill$ong, then yes, you’re attacking him, because he is a senior pastor and he must accept some of the blame for Hill$ong’s naughtiness.
But attacking ‘any church’ is actually attacking him?
That’s just a really really weird form of paranoia.
Encourage Joel to join the discussion at Signposts.
We’ll sort him out.
August 5th, 2006 at 1:38 pm
Thanks for the input Lance! You will notice I have slotted some of your thoughts in…I am not ready to sacrifice Joel to the Signposts altar yet…
It is interesting that my tone is always pleasent but Joel’s is angry. He also attacks me personally…
Here is my reply:
“Hi Joel,
Thanks for making it clear that my status is now that of visitor in regard to Hill$ong!
Joel, I think that your heart is in the right place although I disagree with your methods. But I would never question your love for Jesus because you may disagree with me and I don’t understand why that is the first conclusion you jump too when you disagree with me.
Joel, I heard, with my own ears, what you said from the stage on that first night of the conference. You talked about your holiday, with the family, in Paris and how your daughter gave all her pocket money to a homeless person. I don’t understand why you have a problem with me reporting that in my myspace blog for maybe 10 people in the world to see (How on earth did you come across it?) or anywhere else when you said it in front of 20,000 odd people at least once and probably twice (in the later service). Do you deny that you said it?
Do you not see the irony of talking about an exotic holiday in Paris and then asking people who probably struggle to pay their bills and put food on the table and send their kids on school excursions to give “all their pocket money” like your daughter did? How on earth do you equate giving a homeless person money with giving to Hill$ong conference? It is not even in the same book let alone on the same page! I admire your daughter for giving so generously in a true Jesus spirit and to a true New Testament standard. Do you give all your pocket money to Hill$ong conference Joel? How can you afford your holiday to Paris if you give all your pocket money to Hill$ong conference? Can you understand the hypocrisy of your position when you don’t even do what you ask others to do from the stage?
Please don’t get side tracked Joel, I think it’s great that you saved the money to take your family to Paris. What an adventure! What a boost to your love life! I do not begrudge you having a great holiday and a wonderful life. You work hard! You saved your money! Good on you! But why ask people to give to a level (100%) that you obviously don’t? Why ask people to give away their holiday to Budgewoi Caravan Park or where ever when you don’t? Don’t you realize that these people are so in love with Jesus that they will give up the holiday or pay less bills or even go into overdraft (like Sam’s Mum and Dad did with the Kingdom People Building Program 2 years ago) to give to God? Or do you realize that and take advantage of their pure hearts?
I’m sorry if you perceive my comments to be lacking in love. Perhaps they are a little “loveless” towards specific people involved with Hill$ong. But they are full of love towards everyone else. I am challenging, in a public forum, certain aspects and behaviour of some people and Hill$ong church as a whole. Why do you see it as an attack? Joel for several years I thought the best, as love does, about peoples motives and actions in Hill$ong but it got to a level where it was obvious what peoples motives actually were and are. But staying with your line of thought that I am attacking Hill$ong, yes I guess because you are a Senior Pastor of Hill$ong I am attacking you. As you hold that position you must share in the blame of what Hill$ong does to people or how it raises and uses funds. So that is fair enough to feel that way, I guess. As for attacking any other church, (once again I don’t agree with the word “Attack” but we will stay with it) I am not attacking any other church and isn’t that paranoia to think that if I was it would be attacking you too? Perhaps another way to look at this Joel, is to think that by “attacking” Hill$ong, I am actually defending the church universal?
So what about the rest of my blog? Do you want to discuss tithing or church authority or the Israel/Lebanon war or Reinhard Bonnke and his ability to raise his own staff members from the dead and his unsubstantiated threats from Osama Bin Laden or perhaps my son being second in his division for the NSW Tae Kwon Do Winter Competition or would you like to talk about Hill$ong and accountability with finances internally or Hill$ong and apparent misappropriation of government grants or would you like to discuss the Weekend Australian article of April 29, 2006… “The High Cost of Faith”.
Is there anything else you would like to talk about in regard to my perception and perspective of the Hill$ong conference? God seemed to be telling Hill$ong, during the conference, to concentrate on the important things of helping people and not treating people like objects or tools or programs and that worship was a lifestyle of service not putting your hands in the air to a few songs. Would you like to discuss any of that?
Once again, I hope you and Julia and the kids are enjoying life and are all fit and healthy.
Have a great day!
Neil”
August 5th, 2006 at 3:25 pm
Neil,
Could you also ask Joel as to why Brian Houston went on the record in the 2003 SMH news article as saying ‘he makes his money as a property developer with a couple of guys from Church’ and then denied this in the BRW Letters to the editor June/july 2005 and aslo on ABC’s Australian Story.
Could you also ask him why when concerned people ask this question and try to get clarification from Hillsong on this matter - there is no response. But when people write to the Journalist of the SMH (G. Bearup) he will give them the coutesy of a response and will confirm that Brian went on the record with those original comments.
Perhaps you could also ask to send detailed audited financials for all Hillsong related entities including Leadership Ministries Incorporated. Please aslo ask him how much money flows to and from the Church to people on the lucrative speaking circuit.
Perhaps you could also ask him why Brian Houston book “You Need More Money” has been withdrawn from print - yet Hillsong still endorses this teaching and that of ’storehouse tithing’.
Could you ask Joel these Pastors run their Churches with closed books. Could you also ask Joel as to whether Hillsong endoses Word of faith Teaching.
Their is much to answer for.
August 5th, 2006 at 5:44 pm
Neil I am so very impressed with your response to Joel A’Bell.
I am actually suprised Joel even bothered to respond but obviously you have hit a nerve and he has been unable to let this go.
Mate, good on you for standing up for the truth and the real Gospel and the true Jesus Christ of the bible.
Neil, all of Christ’s true disciples are put out of the synagogue eventually (John 16.2) and like Christ and every other prophet in the O.T they prophesy and witness against their own people, the spiritual house of Israel (Ezekiel 2.3)
WIGGY
August 5th, 2006 at 6:08 pm
Kevin,
1) My views on Prosperity are very different the the enticing message espoused by Hillsong who view ‘prosperity’ as evidence of the blessing of God on ones life.
2) ‘Prosperity’ by definition releated primarily to finances and wealth and also by allusion according to Prosperity Theology Proponents.
3) Prosperity Theology is a ‘carrot on a stick’ that may draw people into the Church under false pretenses and with false expectations.
4) God allows ‘prosperity’ for the righteous and unrighteous alike - by way of either fate/fortune or by the application of divine principles at play … my non-christian friends will say “the harder I work, The luckier I get”.
5) The Bible is clear that following Jesus is not a pathway to worldy ’success’ or prosperity. There is clear evidence to suggest the contrary. Possibly the lack of ‘prosperity’ in some cases is actually mora a sign of obedience to Christ.
6) I am not against wealth or ‘prosperity’ - but the Bible is also clear on the dangers that the pursuit of wealth brings. Wealth/Riches can be deceitful - it is like playing with fire.
7) The message “You Need More money” seems to reek of the temptation of Satan to Jesus in the wilderness. Imagine what he could be ‘Boss of the World’ with all those resources at his disposal!.
Proper stewardship teaching will warn people of the inherent dangers of material prosperity/riches/wealth not put it on a pedestal - or ‘claim it’ as a Christians ‘birth-right’.
August 5th, 2006 at 6:36 pm
One distinction Phil Baker made in his latest wealth sermon at Revenue Church last Sunday..was the difference between ‘prosperity’ and ‘materialism’.
In the Baker mindset…’prosperity’ is about accumulating wealth so as to assist others…while ‘materialism’ is accumulating wealth for one’s own exclusive use.
So if someone accuses him or others of preaching the ‘prosperity doctrine’..he sees nothing wrong with that because in his mind..’prosperity’ ends up helping others…not yourself.
The fatal flaw in the doctrine of course…is only a small amount ends up trickling down to others…as we have seen with Hill$ong Emerge volunteers being given meagre resources to carry out the work on the ground…while the leadership hogs bonuses worth tens of thousands of dollars.
I tell you what…trying to learn the language of these hucksters so as to speak it fluently..is like learning double dutch.
August 5th, 2006 at 9:45 pm
Let’s not confuse terms.
The definition of the word “PROSPERITY” It’s all about an individual or a community ‘getting ahead’ or succeeding (usually) in economic terms.
It has nothing at all with benevolance or giving stuff away.
Rene Rivkin prospered. The Pharisees prospered.
The Rich Young Ruler was ‘prosperous’ and Jesus told him to give it to the poor and follow him.
People need to test their teaching … it make sound good, it may ’scratch their itchy ears’ but it is their responsibility to be like the Bereans in Acts 17:11 and see if what they are being taught is Truth.:
August 6th, 2006 at 9:04 am
Here are the scriptures in Matthew, that show that the teaching of prosperity doctine is in error. This is only the very obvious scriptures and I can show how many of the parables are in direct opposition to it as well. This is only one book of the new testement. I can go on for page after page. This doctrine is complete bullshit.
19″Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22″The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
24″No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.
Do Not Worry
25″Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life[b]?
28″And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
20Jesus replied, “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”
9Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts; 10take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep.
18″Here is my servant whom I have chosen,
the one I love, in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him,
and he will proclaim justice to the nations.
22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful.
21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
30But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
25Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
13″It is written,” he said to them, ” ‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’[e] but you are making it a ‘den of robbers.’[f]”
5″Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them ‘Rabbi.’
23″Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
rev
August 6th, 2006 at 10:32 am
Rev, You can see it. I can see it. Why do you think Phil Baker cannot see it?
August 6th, 2006 at 11:39 am
From these verses, the logical inference is that he cannot see it because he is serving 2 masters .. -sigh-
August 7th, 2006 at 11:27 am
I’d like to try an experiment for a sec… suspend judgement on PB and assume that he would like to see people growing in their faith & relationship with God, believes that God has a plan for people’s lives, and believes that he is helping people through the ‘tool’ or ‘agency’ of his MC.
Does his definition of prosperity simply indicate that he is more likely to believe in a market driven ‘trickle down’ economy where those who can make it do, and then that benefits those who ‘can’t make it’? Because if that’s the case, then he’s no better or worse that the other 00’s of 000’s of Australians who voted for Howard & Costello at the last election, work in mining & property sectors, have large stock portfolios or are trying to protect their inherited wealth from the demon tax-man who wants to take it and give it to all the plebs who can’t get a job…
Admittedly, as someone who leans a little more (?) to the universal side of economics/sociology etc, it strikes deeply within me. However, PB would hardly be the 1st (or last) to try and save the world by getting ahead…
I put this as a question to those who know (far) more about these issues, but I dunno - is it just an bias that influences the way he votes every 3yrs?
August 7th, 2006 at 11:47 am
So in verse 23 - is Jesus telling people to tithe? You take this one fishman
There are elements of people who may come to Christ by this false theology we call PD. However, ususally it is Christian people who respond to it. But say they do - so what - everybody is going to heaven anyway so what is the big deal. if you steal money, there is No penalty. god loves everybody, even theifs and hitler and Moa and PD teachers.
We don’t even need to tell people Jesus ever existed - they will find out when they get to heaven… Oh, wait I’m into the non hersesy of universalism - not the heresy of PD…. it IS about money.
August 7th, 2006 at 11:48 am
My how my carnal man has missed all of this…
August 7th, 2006 at 12:03 pm
Yep, agreed, in fact most of the prosperity ‘doctrine’ comes out of WOF (Word of Faith) people. Would that have anything to do with the fact that most ‘WOF-ers’ are tele-evangelists, and need huge sums of money to prop up their ministires ? … Surely not !!
God ‘blesses’ in so many different ways, not always $$$, and it seems to me, the basis used to support the prosperity (mis)teaching, is that you have to plant a ’seed of faith’ first, .. and of course that seed has to go into _that_ persons ministry. Then I see these people have new jets, huge houses, big buildings, and ask for huge sums to preach as itinerants. I’m reminded of the scripture , of how disappointed the rich man was, when Jesus challenged him to give away all that he had.
Interestingly, this was just after Jesus had ‘blessed’ children (verse 16).
Could the prosperity doctrine adherants give away all that they have ?? I don’t know.
August 7th, 2006 at 4:25 pm
So Kev, was that a deflection? I guess if you can’t deal with the scriptures you just say, wow what in the world is that over there!!!!!
maybe when we look away you can run and hide.
I am still studying universal salvation. They actually have a much stronger biblical stance than the tithe or prosperity doctrine. As of now I do not believe it, but I am studying it carefully. It is interesting that some evangelicals do not consider universalism to be heresy, as it still believes in hell and the primacy of Jesus.
Your take on universalism is however very simple. The belief in Jesus saves people from the correction of hell and the very real danger of a wasted life. Salvation on earth is of great worth, and the establishing of God’s kingdom requires communities of people that bow to Jesus. The idea that we just need to not go to hell and get into heaven and everything else will take care of itself takes away from the entire gospel of the kingdom of God.
rev
August 8th, 2006 at 2:43 am
All believers should attend a local church for mutual edification, encouragement, evangelism, service and worship.
Hebrews 10:24-25
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
August 8th, 2006 at 8:41 am
Hi all - I’ve just stumbled across your website, and have been interested to read a few of the discussions.
I’m an anglican minister in Sydney (no prizes for guessing that from my log-in name). Like many of you, I am concerned about the prosperity gospel. I read “You Need More Money” with a mixture of humour and horror. While it contained some practical advice on money it consistently provided material that would be well used as counter-examples in biblical exegesis classes (eg use of the Parable of the Prodigal Son).
Has anyone seen the much more demanding yet rewarding books “Neither Poverty nor Riches” by Craig Blomberg and “Beyond Tithing” by Stuart Murray?
Does anyone have any other books to recommend?
August 8th, 2006 at 8:51 am
The eye of the needle and make poverty personal but the UNOH publications
rev
August 8th, 2006 at 3:34 pm
These aren’t prosperity gospel, however you mentioned tithing:
Should the Church teach tithing ?
Tithing: Low-Realm, Obsolete & Defunct
Free Good News web site; BERNIE DEHLER
No MOre Tithing book web site by George W. Greene
Tithe-Debate.info (UK, ENGLAND)
Truth for Free.com web site; DAVID YEUBANKS
Oops, found one on Prosperity Gospel ….
Prosperity Gospel Danger Signs
August 8th, 2006 at 4:05 pm
“Attendance” does not make a person a Christian, and “church” is not limited to buildings, ekklesia means ‘assembly’ or ‘called out ones’ . This person says it very succinctly ….
Traditions of Men Making the NT Word of God of None Effect
The verse in Hebrews 10:24-25 is more about the purpose of assembling, it is “One Anothering” ……
“And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching”.
We need to know, ….. what is “church” ?
August 8th, 2006 at 4:25 pm
Sorry, one of those tithing links got messed up, here it is ..
Truth for Free web site; DAVID YEUBANKS