Comments on: Token women - good or bad? http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/07/19/token-women-good-or-bad/ musings from those on the journey Sun, 2 Nov 2008 09:31:57 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: TheGeoffRe(y)port » Boys will be… wait, where’d they all go? http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/07/19/token-women-good-or-bad/#comment-144699 TheGeoffRe(y)port » Boys will be… wait, where’d they all go? Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:37:53 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/07/19/token-women-good-or-bad/#comment-144699 [...] I know that in my experience so much of the comments in the article ring true. We’re peddling a message (if you’ll excuse the crudity of the terminology) of how great it is to be in love with Jesus, and missing the call to action - we’ve lost the adventure that this Christian life is supposed to be. Which is perhaps why we’re seeing the opposite issue in the Emerging church arena (particularly in leadership) - the people who are most disillussioned by the way church is working at the moment, are the people who are getting out there and doing stuff. [...] […] I know that in my experience so much of the comments in the article ring true. We’re peddling a message (if you’ll excuse the crudity of the terminology) of how great it is to be in love with Jesus, and missing the call to action - we’ve lost the adventure that this Christian life is supposed to be. Which is perhaps why we’re seeing the opposite issue in the Emerging church arena (particularly in leadership) - the people who are most disillussioned by the way church is working at the moment, are the people who are getting out there and doing stuff. […]

]]> By: bec http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/07/19/token-women-good-or-bad/#comment-143802 bec Wed, 26 Jul 2006 00:22:08 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/07/19/token-women-good-or-bad/#comment-143802 hey, speaking of women and stories...check out the blog of my friend. She's currently in New Orleans doing research. Only, unlike most of the academics in our field who do research by lining up interviews, she goes into a community and becomes a part of it, and learns a lot by doing that. She's worked in East Timor, Bangladesh, Phuket immediately after the tsunami (still getting counselling because of it, too), trekked through the mountains in Laos to do evaluations in remote villages...and she's not even 30 yet! She says New Orleans is the worst situation she's ever seen (yep, worse than Phuket!), and her reflections make for interesting (disturbing) reading... www.chasingdisasters.blogspot.com hey, speaking of women and stories…check out the blog of my friend. She’s currently in New Orleans doing research. Only, unlike most of the academics in our field who do research by lining up interviews, she goes into a community and becomes a part of it, and learns a lot by doing that. She’s worked in East Timor, Bangladesh, Phuket immediately after the tsunami (still getting counselling because of it, too), trekked through the mountains in Laos to do evaluations in remote villages…and she’s not even 30 yet! She says New Orleans is the worst situation she’s ever seen (yep, worse than Phuket!), and her reflections make for interesting (disturbing) reading…

http://www.chasingdisasters.blogspot.com

]]> By: cheryl http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/07/19/token-women-good-or-bad/#comment-143777 cheryl Tue, 25 Jul 2006 09:35:25 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/07/19/token-women-good-or-bad/#comment-143777 there are so many layers in all of this... how do people learn? how can people best communicate their wisdom? what will people pay to hear? i've been in the car a lot today, and had a long time to think (i was organising the blessing for a new prison chapel in Marngoneet, near Lara... there's a whole other story...) i think my problem is with the word 'tokenism'. i would hate for anyone to be chosen to speak at a conference just because they were a woman / indigenous / inner-city / poor etc. etc. but any event that only has male, white, middle class speakers is missing out on a whole realm of experience and perspective. women look at the world differently to (white) men. indigenous people even more so. we shouldn't invite female / indigenous (etc.) speakers to create equality. we should invite them because without their wisdom and perspective, we're only getting half (at best) of the story. and we need to create events that are designed to get the best wisdom from those people. (this is such basic stuff that it's probably already been said...sorry...) there are so many layers in all of this… how do people learn? how can people best communicate their wisdom? what will people pay to hear?

i’ve been in the car a lot today, and had a long time to think (i was organising the blessing for a new prison chapel in Marngoneet, near Lara… there’s a whole other story…)

i think my problem is with the word ‘tokenism’.

i would hate for anyone to be chosen to speak at a conference just because they were a woman / indigenous / inner-city / poor etc. etc.

but any event that only has male, white, middle class speakers is missing out on a whole realm of experience and perspective. women look at the world differently to (white) men. indigenous people even more so. we shouldn’t invite female / indigenous (etc.) speakers to create equality. we should invite them because without their wisdom and perspective, we’re only getting half (at best) of the story. and we need to create events that are designed to get the best wisdom from those people.

(this is such basic stuff that it’s probably already been said…sorry…)

]]> By: Laura http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/07/19/token-women-good-or-bad/#comment-143760 Laura Tue, 25 Jul 2006 06:24:51 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/07/19/token-women-good-or-bad/#comment-143760 I think it can be quite good to let the speakers decide the mode of "instruction". In the opportunities I've had to teach, and present at conferences, I just find that different topics lend themselves to different styles of presentation. Sometimes you can get a particular point across best using a group activity, sometimes by standing up the front, explaining it, and then taking some questions, sometimes by handing out reading material and having a discussion, etc. Having the seating in a circle can be great for discussion, but rows are usually better if you are doing a slideshow, powerpoint, or whatever. Of course, some speakers won't change their style, regardless of topic, audience or type of forum, and there's probably not much you can do about that, other then to tell them how much time they have. But if you allow the presenter to do things in their own way, it would seem to me that you are on the right track. I think it can be quite good to let the speakers decide the mode of “instruction”. In the opportunities I’ve had to teach, and present at conferences, I just find that different topics lend themselves to different styles of presentation. Sometimes you can get a particular point across best using a group activity, sometimes by standing up the front, explaining it, and then taking some questions, sometimes by handing out reading material and having a discussion, etc. Having the seating in a circle can be great for discussion, but rows are usually better if you are doing a slideshow, powerpoint, or whatever.

Of course, some speakers won’t change their style, regardless of topic, audience or type of forum, and there’s probably not much you can do about that, other then to tell them how much time they have. But if you allow the presenter to do things in their own way, it would seem to me that you are on the right track.

]]> By: bec http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/07/19/token-women-good-or-bad/#comment-143759 bec Tue, 25 Jul 2006 06:19:00 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/07/19/token-women-good-or-bad/#comment-143759 What have I done now?! I had to trace back through the thread to find out what I last said to you, and I can't for the life of me figure out why it's so offensive! I just said I was asking a serious question, and said my friends would qualify as hip inner city men!! What have I done now?! I had to trace back through the thread to find out what I last said to you, and I can’t for the life of me figure out why it’s so offensive! I just said I was asking a serious question, and said my friends would qualify as hip inner city men!!

]]> By: the rev http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/07/19/token-women-good-or-bad/#comment-143758 the rev Tue, 25 Jul 2006 05:44:24 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/07/19/token-women-good-or-bad/#comment-143758 Toddy, please feel free to call me the, or rev, or john, or any derogatory term that comes to mind, call me anything, just call me :) Bec, I don't know why I even try. the rev Toddy,

please feel free to call me the, or rev, or john, or any derogatory term that comes to mind, call me anything, just call me :)

Bec,

I don’t know why I even try.

the rev

]]> By: Toddy http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/07/19/token-women-good-or-bad/#comment-143757 Toddy Tue, 25 Jul 2006 05:40:58 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/07/19/token-women-good-or-bad/#comment-143757 Nice chatting - good points re beliefs and actions. Gotta go - kids video is nearly done, and I've got to do stuff around the place so my wife thinks I've been busy all day! :-) (Yes, I know how that sounds, and I know what thread I've said that on! :-) ) Nice chatting - good points re beliefs and actions.

Gotta go - kids video is nearly done, and I’ve got to do stuff around the place so my wife thinks I’ve been busy all day! :-)

(Yes, I know how that sounds, and I know what thread I’ve said that on! :-) )

]]> By: bec http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/07/19/token-women-good-or-bad/#comment-143756 bec Tue, 25 Jul 2006 05:30:31 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/07/19/token-women-good-or-bad/#comment-143756 Toddy - pragmatic, maybe. But it's also about the distinction between beliefs/thoughts and actions. For example, I have friends who would state that women should submit to their husbands, but their beliefs as to the practical ramifications of that would vary. Similarly, someone who comes to our dinner might think that people who live on the streets "need" them, but that doesn't necessarily have an impact on the people they're hanging out with. :) I have time to do this because I get distracted and bored easily and because I'm not very busy today... :) Toddy - pragmatic, maybe. But it’s also about the distinction between beliefs/thoughts and actions. For example, I have friends who would state that women should submit to their husbands, but their beliefs as to the practical ramifications of that would vary. Similarly, someone who comes to our dinner might think that people who live on the streets “need” them, but that doesn’t necessarily have an impact on the people they’re hanging out with. :)

I have time to do this because I get distracted and bored easily and because I’m not very busy today… :)

]]> By: Toddy http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/07/19/token-women-good-or-bad/#comment-143755 Toddy Tue, 25 Jul 2006 05:09:20 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/07/19/token-women-good-or-bad/#comment-143755 'H' words? Oh no... you don't mean... !!! (gasp!) Hey Bec, I keep learning more and more about you. Your comment (bottom of page 3) 'But just personally, I’d rather be patronised than excluded. I see tokenism is the beginning of a journey to a more inclusive place' I found intriguing. Very pragmatic.. I dunno - maybe I thought you'd be more idealistic than that based on other comments... I guess tokenism affects me differently because I am 'one of us' (white male). Therefore, maybe I have the 'luxery' (?) of seeing tokenism as being 'rude' or something, because at the end of the day, I've got the 'package' that 'equips me' to strive to be included. I can be selected on merit without bumping my head on the glass ceiling. Those who have concussed themselves by persisting to try to get through to the top will take any route to get through, regardless of the intention of the offer. Food for thought Bec, ta. Oh - being the busy lawyer person that you are, how do you have time to stay with us throughout the day? I'm being a house-dad today (wife doing Elijah House course in neighbouring town and kids out of school til Thursday) and it suddenly struck me - what are the rest of you doing? Of course, being dial up at home means that Indian Telstra workers can't get through to me while I'm here!! HA HA HA !!! ‘H’ words? Oh no… you don’t mean… !!! (gasp!)

Hey Bec, I keep learning more and more about you. Your comment (bottom of page 3) ‘But just personally, I’d rather be patronised than excluded. I see tokenism is the beginning of a journey to a more inclusive place’ I found intriguing. Very pragmatic..

I dunno - maybe I thought you’d be more idealistic than that based on other comments…
I guess tokenism affects me differently because I am ‘one of us’ (white male). Therefore, maybe I have the ‘luxery’ (?) of seeing tokenism as being ‘rude’ or something, because at the end of the day, I’ve got the ‘package’ that ‘equips me’ to strive to be included. I can be selected on merit without bumping my head on the glass ceiling.

Those who have concussed themselves by persisting to try to get through to the top will take any route to get through, regardless of the intention of the offer.

Food for thought Bec, ta. Oh - being the busy lawyer person that you are, how do you have time to stay with us throughout the day? I’m being a house-dad today (wife doing Elijah House course in neighbouring town and kids out of school til Thursday) and it suddenly struck me - what are the rest of you doing?

Of course, being dial up at home means that Indian Telstra workers can’t get through to me while I’m here!! HA HA HA !!!

]]> By: dan http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/07/19/token-women-good-or-bad/#comment-143754 dan Tue, 25 Jul 2006 05:07:00 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/07/19/token-women-good-or-bad/#comment-143754 This is getting a little off topic, but actually I don't go to forge all that much. My forge history is that I normally go to a day or a session of the intensives and go to a postcards night every now and then when we can make it a congregational event at Tangent. The times that I have been to forge events have often been guided by whether I want to hear the speaker or whether I have particular plans to connect with friends there or whether it is one of those times when I haven't managed to see my husband for a week or so and sitting with him in a seminar is a good way to do that. I would spend more time directly with forge people than with them at forge events (if that makes sense). For me, most of the interest in going to an event like this (whether forge or whatever) would be to support the people organising it, to support someone who is speaking, to listen to someone who I want to hear speak or "misc". I love forge and I reckon it is a great organisation, and I really like the forge people, but I am not really the best example of attendance at the events. This is getting a little off topic, but actually I don’t go to forge all that much. My forge history is that I normally go to a day or a session of the intensives and go to a postcards night every now and then when we can make it a congregational event at Tangent. The times that I have been to forge events have often been guided by whether I want to hear the speaker or whether I have particular plans to connect with friends there or whether it is one of those times when I haven’t managed to see my husband for a week or so and sitting with him in a seminar is a good way to do that.

I would spend more time directly with forge people than with them at forge events (if that makes sense). For me, most of the interest in going to an event like this (whether forge or whatever) would be to support the people organising it, to support someone who is speaking, to listen to someone who I want to hear speak or “misc”.

I love forge and I reckon it is a great organisation, and I really like the forge people, but I am not really the best example of attendance at the events.

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