too hard - forgive me jesus
I have to admit something - perhaps even ask for forgiveness.
Last week when I was thinking of what I would do at our tangent congregation, it crossed my mind that it would be good to explore the developing conflict in the middle east between Israel and the Syrian-backed terror group Hezbollah in Palestine. It is a powerful issue that needs grappling with as we express our spiritual discipline of discerning world issues.
What is the Christian response/action to such things?
I need to admit that I found it too hard and did something else. I thought that result would be that we would just pool our ignorance about such matters - so I retreated to another topic. It is for this reason it makes me glad their are publications like sojourners who write articles such as these - the new war in the middle east (free registration required).
I found this statement powerful:
“As Christians committed to the cause of peace, our role is not to “take sides” in the struggle, in the traditional sense, but rather to constantly stand for the “side” of a just and secure peace. We can ignore neither the horror of suicide bombings against Israeli civilians (including direct attacks on school children) nor the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories (with all its “collateral damage” to Palestinian children). We must have the vision and courage to stand against the acts of violence by terrorist organizations, as well as the massive state violence by the region’s military superpower, while avoiding the trap of positing a false “equivalency” between actions that are not equal.”
And then I cringed when I read the next line:
“We cannot allow ourselves to be paralyzed by the political, strategic, and moral complexity of the situation to stand back and do nothing.”
Yep, that’s me. Still me - I need to work this through in community - help me Lord.
July 21st, 2006 at 10:44 am
i read this on saints site (http://dogfightatbankstown.typepad.com/blog/)
he has a number of very interesting articles re the israeli/lebonese conflict… i have to say it is very hard not to take sides… and for that matter (just posing the question!!) why shouldn’t we take sides….
“And before everyone decries civilian casualties and goes horror horror, remember this, as Imshin reminds us: most civilian casualties in Lebanon have been the families of Hezbollah activists who had built additional rooms to their homes to store Fajr rockets. Remember too that the Israeli air force also dropped paper leaflets in Lebanon warning civilians to stay away from Hezbollah buildings.
We can only be sorry that these Hizballah activists could so callously put their families in danger.
(Of course some don’t bother decrying civilian casualties in Israel or the fact that both Hamas and Hezbollah deliberately target them without reason or warning.)
Imshin has much more on these Fajr rockets and she’s not the only one who smells a rat. Hezbollah’s biggest backers are Iran and Syria.
A disproportionate response from Israel? When it comes to Hezbollah, not enough response in my book. If the weak and troubled Lebanese government and security forces can’t get Hezbollah militants to return the Israeli soldiers and disband and disarm, then give them all the help they need.”
July 21st, 2006 at 3:34 pm
abtruth,
the problem with that argument is that the Isreali army still killed and continues to kill innocent civilians, particularly children. Regardless of why they were in the area and who put them there, they were/are still innocent children. When does killing innocent children become justified? How many dead children are two captive Isreali soldiers worth?
The Isrealli army bombed hospitals, power stations, bridges and carpet bombed whole suburbs in the certain knowledge that there were no Hezbollah or munitions in them. What was the point of this? The same as the “shock and awe” campaign that was supposed to win the Iraqi war for the Americans. It looks like the result is pretty much the same. The fomenting of a whole new breed of insurgents and terrorists. The ingredients you need are poverty, desparation, vengence and a concrete external threat. In Lebanon in the last week or so Isreal has provided all of these.
There will be no winners out of this conflict and there is certainly no-one occupying the high moral ground.
July 21st, 2006 at 6:15 pm
i wrote a prayer about this on my blog - I’m finding it very hard to keep faith in a God of peace through this war. i don’t know how to pray for this anymore.
i keep thinking God is beyond nation, race, culture and even religion… there’s no moral high ground. and i can’t see how anyone will have the courage to back down. i’m so damn scared by this.
July 21st, 2006 at 9:07 pm
no-one occupying the moral highground???
which nation has Israel vowed to destroy…??
both hamas hezbollah the plo iran and old osama’s openly stated aim is to annihilate Israel and wipe it off the face of the earth…
July 21st, 2006 at 9:58 pm
Soryr guys, but it’s getting late in the night and my memory of biblical quotes escapes me but…,
Is there a high ground??
On face value, do suicide bombings and the kidnapping of 3 Israeli soldiers require retaliation to the effect of destroying the infrastructure of a whole country (countries-Lebanon/Gaza)?
In the times of Moses, God required the total destruction of the Caananites who inhabited the land, in order that the israelites should move in and cleanse/take posession of that land. It seems He required a wholesale slaughter, a terrible thought. But, this was a consequence for the Caananites moral and spiritual corruption since their division from the times (curse) of Noah. They propulgated idolatry and sexual immorality and, to allow it to continue would corrupt them inevitably. They didn’t totally destroy the Caananites and what happened?? Idolatry and immorality have continued until this day.
The Bible dictates that these tribes were descendants of Ishmael/Esau and, apart from leaving their knowledge of God and perhaps their edict, had a a jealousy/envy of the promise given to Abraham’s elect.
I’d love to expand on this if my feeble memory permitted but ultimately these things must pass.
An old conflict which still burns deep, and must still do so until the Lord’s Temple is rebuilt. How can that happen unless the Dome of the Rock is destroyed??
How can that happen, unless Arab opposition is neutralised??
Who Knows the outcome?? Check Revelation/your newspapers for updates.
July 21st, 2006 at 10:36 pm
The only remedy to the situation is super natural intervention … Grace. People giving up their rights to justice. It cannot happen naturally.
And by supernatural intervention I do not mean Brian Houston taking another trip to Isreal and boats floating past singing “Shout to the Lord” while he is talking to the Isreali PM.
July 21st, 2006 at 10:57 pm
Abtruth - i wrote a paragraph in response, and then realised that i’m doing the very thing that my asks me not to do. as soon as we start to list who has done more wrong, who has killed more civilians, who has dropped more bombs, who started it etc. etc., then we’ve stopped looking at this as people of faith.
i’m sickened by every part of this war. i’m sickened by hezbollah’s threats and behaviour towards israel, i’m sickened by israeli children writing ‘love’ messages on bombs that will be dropped over lebanon (have you seen those photos? i wanted to vomit)… i’m terrified by how easily conflict conflagrates.
i’ve been reading stories from the Qur’an this week. i’ve not done that before. i’ve been surprised by how much our faiths have in common. what is it about human nature that always looks for the thing that divides us, rather than the thing that unites us? and we have ever since the time of abraham. a very human trait, not a very godly one…
July 22nd, 2006 at 12:46 am
Cheryl,
I’m pretty much fed up too, there’s a lot of whingeing and whining going on. I’m a bit like you (I think) a pop gun attack doesn’t require a cannon response but the bible is full of radical solutions and, however distasteful it may be to you and me, i guess God has the answers to the ultimate outcome. Israel is the”apple of my eye”, I aint gonna argue what His plans may be.
the Bible is full of what society nowadays would call “barbarism” or at the least “political Correctness”. God was pretty much peeved with mankind pre flood and post flood. Nonetheless, he sought a person who would love/trust him and found Abraham (a far from perfect human being). nonetheless, He had fellowship with him, and gave him certain promises.
Maybe it’s approaching time to realise those promises.
The quandary for Christians these days is reconciling a caring, loving God (who is the protector of Israel) allowing Israel to mount a war of unilateral destruction against others. I guess the many scriptural references to the end times and why it has come about, give us food for thought in answering our doubts.
July 22nd, 2006 at 1:15 am
“But we urge you, brothers, to do this more and more, and to aspire to live quietly, and to mind your own affairs, and to work with your hands, as we instructed you, so that you may live properly before outsiders and be dependent on no one.”
1 Thessalonians 4:10-12
The difference we make is quietly, with love, changing the lives around us one by one. Jesus makes no claim to go shouting across the world, but his peaceful resistance by not fighting back, by suffering for doing nothing wrong is our example. There will be suffering until death is done for all eternity, and we cannot stop it, but we are not supposed to in that way. We are to show love, and mercy by shining our lights on a hilltop.
Don’t struggle with it, just live in peace like we are told. Love your enemy and pray for them all.
“For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.”
Ephesians 6:12
July 22nd, 2006 at 8:24 am
israel have been sent into exile before by God for the way they behaved.
and God’s certainly made promises before that God’s regretted.
our difference, Quietrot, (and i suspect that neither of us will change our beliefs on this) is that i do not believe that God is protector of Israel any more than God is protector of all people. Jesus showed that God’s protection is beyond all culture, race and nation - he ‘broadened’ the realm of God.
Muslims believe that the heritage of Abraham is theirs also… this week i went back and read the story of Esau and Jacob. It’s a terrible story. Read it from the perspective of those whose faith descends from Esau, not from a Judaeo-Christian perspective. With a history like that, no wonder reconciliation seems impossible.
July 22nd, 2006 at 10:20 am
was it wrong for england to bomb germany
July 22nd, 2006 at 11:05 am
Re #9: Beautiful post warringvagabond.
Jane
July 22nd, 2006 at 1:08 pm
I never quite get why America is always sticking up for Israel. I guess i comes down to the many Jews in positions of power and influence in the USA but I also think they have a fundamental belief that Israel is God’s chosen nation and since God wins in the end it’s best to be on His side.
I think that this point of view is fundamentally flawed in that Jesus spoke about “true Israel”. I have always taken that to mean the Israel is not a geographical place but a spiritual society which we as Christians are a part of. Do the Jews go to heaven? I suppose they must, even though they deny Jesus as the Christ, because they carry out the sacrificial law and what not. Also, I think Moses will be in heaven and he wasn’t a Christian.
Living in multi cultural Australia, with a very unAustralian lack of racism, I have never understood why these middle eastern countries can’t just get on and live their lives…why do they all have to be so racially pure? why do they have to carry on these historical arguments?
One of my great uncles was killed at Lone Pine on the Gallipoli Peninsula. My son’s Tae Kwon Do instructor is Turkish! My father fought against the Japanese in WW2. My son plays soccer with a Japanese kid! My Grand father fought the Germans in WW1 & 2, One of my Great, Great Uncles was shot down by a German over the English Channel. My Brother has a German Wife! It’s all Macho Bullshit if you ask me!
Post #9 is our response to this latest tragedy as Christians and it is also the correct response to 9/11 and it is also the way we should be evangelising!
Personally, I live in Cronulla! Last year some drunken yobbos egged on by right-wing extremists chased a few poor buggers of Middle Eastern Appearance watched by a crowd of 5,000. This was the pressure cooker exploding after years of inaction and no appearence by police on the beaches. For years Lebonese gangs have terrorised the people of Cronulla. I have seen it, I have experienced it and I have heard many more stories about it. Police do nothing or actually turn a blind eye. The next night after the so called riot 200 cars full of these Lebonese thugs drove past my house and did thousands of $ of damage to property and bashed and stabbed several people. Some of the victims I know personally. There were alteast 600-800 people involved in these attacks! Police on the night witnessed a lot of the attacks and let them all go. only 53 have been arrested since! They all live in our Premier’s electorate….
So we are expected to let the police solve this problem but they will not!
The whole Cronulla thing was always about these specific gangs who used to come here and cause trouble. Their race was never the issue! Their behaviour was! The Police have always and continue to be scared or restrained from arresting these people and policing them! They seem to have their own “Green Light”! The media and the Lebonese turned it into a race issue. People chanted about “Lebs” because that is a description to them not a race of people!
Down Cronulla way the locals are quietly grinning now that the “Lebs” are copping it! I must admit have having been in the middle of this “riot” crap and the retaliation from the criminals I can relate in some small way to the Israelis who have guns pointed at them from everywhere and the constant open threat of annihalation. When the NSW police force won’t do anything to police the situation people take things into their own hands. What else is Israel supposed to do?
Locally, at least the Lebonese from Lakemba etc will be focussed on overseas concerns this summer and will leave us alone and may well terrorise Bondi and the Harkoah Club instead. But next summer they will be back!
I know how I should respond….with love! I find it difficult though to have sympathy for a race that continually starts trouble and then holds up their hands saying, “What us?” “Why are you picking on us?” and “This is racism!”
July 22nd, 2006 at 1:22 pm
The only remedy to the situation is super natural intervention … Grace. People giving up their rights to justice. It cannot happen naturally.
Lionfish - sounds like you think the Muslims ought to forget the Koran and turn to Jesus. As should the Jews… Hmmmm Maybe god is going to intervene here … i’ll tune into Jack Van Impe and find out.
July 22nd, 2006 at 1:30 pm
I wonder what the “measured response” should be - you kidnap our soldiers - we can only take an equal number - too many would be unfair. You send in 23 rockets - we can send in 23 rockets - that’s fair. Maybe it would be more fair to round up - you send 23 rockets we get to send 30, since you went first.
The Lebonese government said today it would fight along side Hezbollah if Isreal invaded. Why then can they not fight Hezbollah and move them of of their soverign soil, so Isreal doesn’t have to. Meanwhile, as the UN sleeps and attempts to do a minimal tasks of nothingness - and kofi what’s his name wonders the hallways of the UN looking for the mens room - Iran build Nukes - and North Korea builds missiles capable of sending Nukes to Australia…. Damn Jews! this is all their fault.
July 23rd, 2006 at 5:13 pm
Neil,
I agree in part that the Americans back the Jewish state because of Jews in power in the States - its a “free” they are allowed to position themselves thus. I have an out there theory - I have always thought that it suits the rightest of the fundamentalist right to be zionists. They are keen to see the second coming of Jesus in their life time and if they ‘force’ the biblical endtimes prophecies they think this may occur. How’s that for consipiracy theory.
No seriously - I agree with Jane - warringvagabond #9 is great post.
July 23rd, 2006 at 5:31 pm
Yes #9 is a great post!
Jesus, I believe! Help me with my unbelief!
July 23rd, 2006 at 7:35 pm
good work MN
July 23rd, 2006 at 8:23 pm
Is there not a difference between Israel the place and Israel the people? If we are all the ’sons (and daughters) of Abraham, then do those who are currently Israeli nationals get more of God’s favour/attention than I do as a fellow son of Abraham?
In which case, is it end time madness because Israel the nation is involved, or is it another political/economic stoush because it suits those invovled (invovled in the decision making, not the getting killed bit!
I dunno - I’m not seeing much out of Israel (or the Jewish nation - generally) that would constitue ‘Godly behaviour’ as set out in Mosaic law, or reflects the fact that God has punished them for previous arrogance…
I’m (relatively) a historical and geographical dunce, so if anyone can help me with this, I’d be all the more pleased. But at the moment, with the little (!) that I know, I’m calling this for what it looks like - normal and nuts.
July 23rd, 2006 at 11:20 pm
“Normal and nuts”
Yep. Every time I hear of things in the middle east I can’t help think ‘… is this the start?’.
I guess it should be more along the lines of ‘is this the start of the finish’?
Personally, I think the ‘proportionate response’ is just some tripe cooked up to further isolate Israel. Don’t forget that the only resolution that’s put to the UN regarding this latest conflict was to condemn Isreal … not Hezbollah, nor Hamas.
Also, both Hamas and Hezbollah are now members of the ruling governments of Gaza (or is it Palestine?) and Lebanon. Therefore, the border crossings in which the soldiers were kidnapped, are effectively acts of war.
And if murdering thugs like Hamas and Hezbollah are democratically, don’t those who voted them in share in the blame for their actions?
July 24th, 2006 at 8:31 am
i went to an inter-faith women’s dinner last night in melbourne - 400 women from Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Sikh, B’nai B’rith, Buddhist and other faith traditions. I felt some hope for the first time in weeks!
July 24th, 2006 at 10:33 am
It’s interesting how opinion tends to come before facts in the case of Israel versus the Arab nations. Unfortunately, the propaganda is weighted heavily against Israel, which has the effect of giving those whose beliefs see Israel merely as an aggressor and occupier some confidence is their prejudiced conviction.
The truth is that Israel, as a sovereign state, has a right to exist without threat or intent of destruction from radical nations such as Iran, or illegal terrorist organisations such as Hizbollah.
Israel has a job to do in Southern Lebanon, and that is to eliminate the threat that Iranian backed Hizbollah currently presents to civilians in Northern Israel. The fact that Hizbollah terrorists sit amongst Lebanese civilians whilst carrying out their attacks is a matter for the Lebanese government to deal with. It also is a matter that the United Nations might like to consider before making their usual meaningless utterances.
However it is neither of these who are doing the purging of terrorists from Lebanon, it is the Israelis who have to deal with the current clear and present danger. No-one else has the metal, capacity and right to stop the terrorist threat.
Whilst they are in gear, I hope they have the ability and tactical capability to take out essential parts of Iran’s nuclear programme. If they do, they will reduce the chances of a threat that is too ghastly to contemplate.
July 25th, 2006 at 5:16 pm
BRAVO Roger!
July 25th, 2006 at 6:17 pm
Roger, I actually agree with your argument that Israel is entitled exist without threat of destruction and to defend its borders. However the argument goes both ways, and Israel has been aggressor and occupier under international law. I’d also note that generally speaking, the propoganda is in fact weighted heavily in favour of Israel. I’ve been quite impressed by the Australian coverage in recent days - I think it’s been pretty balanced.
July 25th, 2006 at 9:39 pm
http://bogieworks.blogs.com/treppenwitz/2006/07/thanks_i_needed.html
Ever since Nasser accidentally discovered the trick in ‘56, every subsequent Arab leader has stuck to his tried and true formula for military success:
1. Instigate a war.
2. Once the war is well underway and you are in the process of having your ass handed to you… get a few world powers to force your western opponent into a cease fire.
3. Whatever you do, don’t surrender or submit to any terms dictated by your enemy. That would ruin everything! All you have to do is wait it out and eventually the world will become sickened at what is being done to your soldiers and civilian population… and will force a truce.
4. Once a truce has been called you can resume your intransigence (which probably caused the conflict in the first place), and even declare victory as your opponent leaves the field of battle.
This tactic has never failed. Not once.
In fact it worked so will for the Egyptians in 1973, that to this day they celebrate the Yom Kippur War - a crushing defeat at the hands of Israel - as a military victory! No kidding… it’s a national holiday over there!
President Lahoud has already begun to shriek like a school girl to the UN Security Council to “Stop the violence and arrange a cease-fire, and then after that we’ll be ready to discuss all matters.”
Uh huh. Forgive me if I find that a tad hard to swallow. He allowed Hezbollah to take over his country. He allowed the regular Lebanese army to provide radar targeting data for the Hezbollah missile that struck the Israeli destroyer. He has turned a blind eye while Iranian and Syrian weapons, advisers and money have poured into his country.
And now that his country is in ruins he wants to call it a draw.
As much as it may sicken the world to stand by and watch it happen, strong hands need to hold back the weak-hearted and let the fight continue until one side finally admits unambiguous defeat.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:05 pm
Abtruth,
The last paragraph highlights the problem for us as Christians.
It’s easy to see the images on TV and declare that it must be stopped at any cost, but there are deeper issues that must be addressed:
What is the greater evil at work here?
‘Blessed are the peacemakers’ … but how is peace made?
Does a momentary peace (cf Six Day War, but also Neville Chamberlin pre WWII ‘Peace in our time’) outweigh a lasting peace?
What are we prepared to give up for peace?
July 25th, 2006 at 10:09 pm
i always wonder why we find it so hard to see complexity - why we have to reduce everything to ‘goodies’ and ‘baddies’. both Israel and lebanon have done terrible things over the last few years. both have a right to be really pissed off with the other. that’s what makes this such a difficult situation to fathom.
July 26th, 2006 at 12:23 am
The way to have peace is to let them fight it out. Because the underlying cause is a few 1000 years old and now, because there is a n all out war, people begin crying about the violence. - oh give me a break. The violence and bloodshed are awlays there - it just usually come in the form of a pipe bomb on a school bus. And the same people that blow up busses anre the ones who abduct soldiers (an act of war) and send in rockets to civilian population. But when Isreal responds - it’s too much.
If we put this in context of how the Japanese shuld have been dealt with in the 1930’s - then after the rape of Nanking and the invasion of Southeast Asia - after pearl harbor and trhough to 1944 when the allies get to pushing Japan back to Japan -we negotiate a cease fire - not a peace - just a cease fire and leave Hirhit to rebuild, so we can fight the same war over again - only now they would have nukes and use them for aggression.
This is what the world community is doing with the terror party Hammas and hezbollah - Terrorist groups instigate war - get their heads handed to them - call for help in getting a cease fire (not peace) - use the time to re-arm - wait - start over again. And some of you buy into their methods, thinking all the while you are for peace.
Peace can only come when the underlying ideology that causes the conflict is erradicated, decimated and eliminated. All the cries from the “peace” when their is no peace crowd - is only making them an “enabler” of the terrorist ideology - that Isreal must be destroyed. I view a lot of the cease fire crowds as saying “no peace - the time to destroy Isreal is not yet - suppress the violence and wait until we are stronger” - then we can destroy them.
God bless Isreal as the fight the war and give them victory - so real maintainable peace can be enjoyed by lebanon, isreal, and the peaceful Arab nations - and may Syria, Hezzbollah and iran suffer destruction. But of course we know that peace between israel and it’s neighbors is impossible - darn Abraham - he just HAD to bless Ishmael.
July 26th, 2006 at 9:42 am
Mark Steyn, writing in today’s Australian, gives a well constructed perspective on this issue. It’s worth reading.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20876,19910623-7583,00.html
July 26th, 2006 at 11:32 am
Abtruth and Macadamia Nut…I find your attitudes alarmingly defeatist given we’re supposed to believe in something beyond ourselves. MN, you make it sound as if the only way change can occur is by people being wiped out…man, if I believed that, I wouldn’t do most of the things I do. I’d probably curl up and die right now.