Miracles of healing
From a comment in one of our threads, we have a reference to this article which includes the following:
Just days before she arrived in Cincinnati, Baker prayed for two blind beggars who wandered into her tent meeting at her base in Pemba, Mozambique. Both men instantly received their sight after Baker wet her fingers with saliva and touched their eyes.
Such astounding miracles are common to Heidi and Rolland. They have seen God supernaturally multiply rice and chili to feed hungry orphans. Heidi has watched paralytics walk for the first time after they received prayer. And indigenous pastors the Bakers trained in Mozambique have raised 53 people from the dead so far.
Greg says:
I don;t think I’ve ever heard of Heidi Baker - but whenever i see stuff like this printed about anyone - especially when it says it’s happened in Africa where i’s phenominally hard to source the accurate reports or get confirmation of events and facts - very dubious - but agree with the message.
I’d like to hear what others think about things like the above.
I have a whole series of books on people trying to prove that miracles occur and trying to document “miraculous” happenings. It must be the sceptic in me that reaches out to these kinds of things. What do others think?
August 18th, 2006 at 5:20 pm
So Greg - you and I can’t take out the Rev & 8 others…
Oh well…
Of course I heard one time of African bull fighting where they have to try and shove gun powder into the bull’s throat. It’s really aweful. It’s a disgraceful practice. In fact it’s (wait for it)
(it’ll make you chuckle)
(Well, it might not, but I’m gonna say it anyway…)
It’s a-bomb-in-a-bull!!
:-)
August 18th, 2006 at 5:54 pm
That is possibly the worst joke ever
rev
August 19th, 2006 at 4:30 am
Not Possibly _ IT IS.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:31 am
Interesting reading on this website about miracles
http://www.tconline.org/stories/414041.html
“Church-planting movements often spring up in an atmosphere of change, uncertainty and chaos. In other words, they’re as ideally suited to our violent 21st-century world as they were to the apostles’ tumultuous first-century world.
Most movements experience persecution, and believers display bold faith in the face of suffering and martyrdom. “Many of the house church leaders have suffered for their faith, spent time behind bars or endured other types of persecution and hardship,” reports one Asia missionary. “Their lack of fear in sharing their faith is contagious.”
Missionaries involved often experience physical sickness, personal crises and many forms of spiritual attack.
Signs and wonders, healings and miracles are the norm, not the amazing exception. In a survey of a large Asian movement, 10 out of 11 believers interviewed said they had personally experienced a miraculous healing or knew someone who had been healed. “Signs and wonders are common features, whether in remote mountain villages or among sophisticated urban government officials and factory managers,” says one Asia missionary.
Conversions often spread through the family and group relationships that dominate most cultures, rather than the individualistic choices we take for granted in the West.
New believers are immediately incorporated into ministry and evangelistic work. In India, one elderly man planted 42 churches during his first year as a follower of Christ. Nobody told him he needed to go to seminary first. In many cases, “pre-converts” spontaneously begin spreading the news of Christ before they formally embrace Him as Savior and Lord.
August 19th, 2006 at 9:09 am
For those that think this only happens in third world countries, this is happening in America and other first world countries right now as well. Neil Cole’s movement CMA has seen 700 churches planted in the last six years, and the story is much like what is written above.
rev
August 19th, 2006 at 9:57 am
We are having a discussion on miracles tomorrow night 20th at the Cave 76 St. Leonards rd in Ascot Vale at 6pm if anyone from Melbourne is interested.
rev
August 19th, 2006 at 7:05 pm
Sending time in the Childrens Hospital … my kids broken leg is nothing to what I have seen over the past week.
I have seen so much. Some beautiful kids caught in the worst of situations - and coming through with the best attitudes and smiles.
The aboriginal kids - down from the country without parents or relatives. A kid who lost his limb in an accident. Two girls crushed in separate accidents.
And so many ‘foster’ parents that take on kids with spina bifida and other conditions into their homes, with genuine love and humility. One woman looks after her four severly handicapped kids…
There are miracles. People whose hearts are led to do extra ordinary things.
Realising the concept of dying to self has to be a miracle.
August 20th, 2006 at 1:16 am
So how is Lionfish Jnr doing? Have been thinking of you guys over the last couple of days.
August 20th, 2006 at 3:50 pm
Veritas - He is on the mend. Bouncing around like a chained monkey in a cage!
We are really impressed with the quality of care and the professionalism of the nurses in the public system.
August 21st, 2006 at 12:23 pm
Have read through all of these comments which are very interesting. One of the ways that I engage with God is through doubt, so the miraculous in the sense of breaking the laws of physics has always been a struggle. I can say that I have never seen a miracle (defined in this way) but I know that others have described certain things I have seen as miracles (does that make sense?)
I think that I have an open mind that God might show me a physical miracle at some stage and I am open to the fact that others have testified to witnessing miracles.
I have a couple of big flashing red lights when talk turns to miracles. First, I find often that mainstream grappling with the biblical text about miracles seems to me to spectacularly miss the point. Even those that aren’t pentecostal hucksters often swerve dangerously close to talking about miracles as though they were magic tricks that have little point other than to demonstrate Jesus’ super powers. I don’t think that this is the point of the miracle narratives.
Secondly, miracles and particularly miracles of healing are associated with all sorts of unsavoury teachings and people. Others have mentioned Hinn and similar exploitative manipulators. However, as Phil indicated, even a more balanced understanding of miracles and healing (include intercessory prayer in here) can be damaging. Many many people in times of loss pray for miracles and do not see them. I don’t think that there is a good answer to the questions asked by these people in grief (Why didn’t God heal my loved one?), but in my time I have heard people pretend that there is a good answer and in doing so, say things that are incredibly damaging (”Because you lack faith” is a good example).
So these things tend to add to my general open minded skepticism. In light of this I would find it intellectually dishonest to pray for or attempt a supernatural miracle, but I have no problem at all with, for example, praying for healing and wholeness with someone who is unwell and laying hands and so on.
August 21st, 2006 at 12:30 pm
Thought I would add this in another comment.
Was driving with one of my bosses between offices this week and we drove past the church in Parkdale (I think) that was destroyed by fire recently. My boss told me that it was exciting a fair amount of interest because in the ruins, there was a “sign from god”. During the fire, some vent covers had burned (or allowed oxygen into the fire or something). The soot had been forced through the holes in the vent covers in four directions, leaving soot trails on the wall. The soot trail pointing towards the ground was elongated as a result of the effect of gravity eventually making a greater amount of soot flow downwards. The effect? A series of near perfectly shaped christian crosses at intervals across the wall of this burnt church.
He said that some were saying that it was a miracle. I wondered whether it is possible to call something a miracle if you know the scientific explanation for how it happened.
August 21st, 2006 at 1:12 pm
i was going to cut and paste things i agreed with in your comment 100 dan but would have ended up repeating the entire comment verbatim
August 21st, 2006 at 4:14 pm
An article from the chrisianpost back in 03 -
In Africa, a big part of the success of Pentecostal movements, scholars say, rests on the ability to tap into traditional cosmology, in which gods have long been solicited in pursuit of specific, worldly favors.
“God has become a modern-day juju God,” said Chichi Aniagolu, a Nigerian sociologist and a Catholic who, by her own admission, dips into Pentecostal services. “You appease him. You bring him yams, goats, make sacrifices, and you get what you want. Today, you’re not making sacrifices. You’re giving tithes.”
Churches have become formidable economic empires. Most troubling to critics is the enrichment of enterprising preachers, who say their fine cars and expensive suits can convince others of what God’s grace can provide. Critics accuse them of duping the poor and doing little to ease poverty or repair endemic corruption.
From the stage at the Redemption Camp outside Lagos on a recent evening came a gospel of success.
..
“There will be no more sickness,” sang Pastor Enoch A. Adeboye, the general overseer of the vast empire known as the Redeemed Church of Christ.
“Yes, Lord, I believe,” the worshipers, more than 100,000 of them, sang back.
“There will be no more failure,” the pastor sang.
“Yes, Lord, I believe,” answered the crowd. “Yes, Lord.”
Like other proponents of prosperity theology, the pastor likes to remind his congregation that God multiplies what the faithful give to the church. “If you don’t sow, you don’t reap,” he says.
“I have heard God speak,” the pastor went on, “and I can tell you, I have heard the sound of abundance.”
see full article at
http://world.christianpost.com/article.htm?aid=99&dat=20031015
August 21st, 2006 at 10:41 pm
As “the rev” says, it is not only third-world countries, but others as well (I mean to say, God is omnipresent). Have read many accounts of people being raised from the dead, and a friend told me recently he has raised the dead once, … I believe him, it’s possible.
Even though I do believe in miracles, I personally have struggled with a chronic illness for many years, and as someone pointed out, there has been the ‘barrage’ of “you have sin in your life, that’s why you are not healed” or “ye of little faith”, etc,etc. I have learnt to ignore those comments, knowing that whether I am in good health or poor health, my blessed Saviour Jesus Christ is with me through this, when all has been stripped away, let’s face it, there is only God, so the short term ‘bad’, turns out to be VERY good.
I think I would have ‘more faith’ to believe for someone elses healing than my own. That is mostly fuelled by my acceptance of the things I cannot change. Reading Job (a lot) showed me different things, like what stood out for me, was that Job’s friends were the ones who gave him “the information he didn’t need to hear”, in short, they were of no help to him. Advice comes cheap, and usually at the wrong time. Little has changed today.
Miracles, yes I do believe in them, healing itself can be instantaneous or long term, or sometimes, not at all. I do not have all the reasons why, or why not, … nor does anyone else for that matter.
Only the great “I AM” knows.
Whether the healing is short term or long term, use the time wisely, to learn from Him, there are lessons along the way, this journey that leads to God.
August 22nd, 2006 at 5:41 am
Hi…I haven’t looked in for a few days (we had a baby)…but wanted to pick up on the quote Veritas posted about Enoch Adeboye…
I was on the staff of an Anglican/Baptist church for 5 1/2 years. We had contacts in Nigeria; some of our senior staff have visited the Holy Ghost nights in Lagos, and Pastor Adeboye came and spoke at our church once when he was visiting England.
I just want to advise caution when it comes to reading/viewing things that are reported in the press, whether Christian or secular. Given the context of the article Veritas quotes from, the section he cites is used to discredit Adeboye as a health and weath teacher…but it sounds to me like he might just have been singing about a heaven - a time, and place, where orthodox Christians of all traditions historically believe that there will be no more sickness, no more failure…take a look at Revelation 21:1-8, to which I too would respond, “Yes Lord, I believe!”
Moreover, the principle of sowing and reaping is found in several places throughout the Bible, and is not restricted in any way to a prosperity gospel…
A while back I watched a programme on TV, investigating the role of the Roman Catholic Church in a South American nation where teenage girls are routinely raped by their fathers (i.e. this is normal, not just a too-common exceptional circumstance) and them abandoned when they get pregnant because their good Catholic dads won’t use condoms…In the programme, several senior Catholic leaders, both in that nation and at the Vatican, were questioned about the role of the Church in this horrific context. Every one who was interviewed maintained that the men were good Catholics because they wouldn’t use condoms, which are a great evil. Not once did any of the Church leaders say they were bad Catholics because they raped their daughters, or that the Church had any responsibility to preach against such behaviour. Or, at any rate, if any of them did express any concern or any pastoral response, those answers were edited out, because it was not in the interests of the film maker to include them…
Please, please, let’s not be naive about reports in the media. And, again, let us not be too hasty to judge our brothers and sisters, even when we believe them to be in error…
August 22nd, 2006 at 12:48 pm
Last Night Andrew Denton interviewed Mike Willissee who made a documentary on Miracles, specifically the live occurrence of stigmata which was filmed and went to air to 120(?) million viewers in the US.
He is writing a book on his findings on the analysis of blood on the Shroud of Turin.
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/enoughrope/transcripts/s1718105.htm
August 22nd, 2006 at 1:28 pm
appearance of stigmata coudl very well be a psychosomatic thing - but the woman concerned (Catya Revas) also started writing in a language she had never learnt!!! Go figure..I remember watching the documentary that Mike filmed with this stigmata event and thinking that it was quite an impressive moment. It went to air in Austrlai arounf 2000
August 22nd, 2006 at 1:31 pm
Yeah, I saw the interview too… I’m not “into” all that stigmata stuff, but the fact it shook up a then skeptical investigative journalist makes you think there could be something to it.
August 22nd, 2006 at 1:38 pm
It’s hard to imagine anything or anyone pulling the wool over Mike Willisee’s eyes
September 6th, 2006 at 11:27 pm
I agree with Greg when refering to Willisee, he’s a hard man to fool. That night on Denton… mike seemed somewhat transformed, the beauty of God’s Grace seemed of him. As Willisee said … “faith is a gift”.