Miracles of healing
From a comment in one of our threads, we have a reference to this article which includes the following:
Just days before she arrived in Cincinnati, Baker prayed for two blind beggars who wandered into her tent meeting at her base in Pemba, Mozambique. Both men instantly received their sight after Baker wet her fingers with saliva and touched their eyes.
Such astounding miracles are common to Heidi and Rolland. They have seen God supernaturally multiply rice and chili to feed hungry orphans. Heidi has watched paralytics walk for the first time after they received prayer. And indigenous pastors the Bakers trained in Mozambique have raised 53 people from the dead so far.
Greg says:
I don;t think I’ve ever heard of Heidi Baker - but whenever i see stuff like this printed about anyone - especially when it says it’s happened in Africa where i’s phenominally hard to source the accurate reports or get confirmation of events and facts - very dubious - but agree with the message.
I’d like to hear what others think about things like the above.
I have a whole series of books on people trying to prove that miracles occur and trying to document “miraculous” happenings. It must be the sceptic in me that reaches out to these kinds of things. What do others think?
August 15th, 2006 at 1:07 pm
I can be as cynical as the next guy, but maybe do some more research here before coming to a conclusion.
August 15th, 2006 at 1:46 pm
very dubious indeed - and the above linked blog from miketodd07 does nothing to satisfy. here is a quote
“Witchcraft crept in among some of the jealous leaders, so we went on a corporate fast. Our precious children fasted and prayed as well. Something broke in the spirit on Monday. There was major repentance and unity in the end. We moved into a new place in the Holy Spirit. There were visions and words from the students and pastors. God sent a purifying wave of His Holy Spirit.”
miraculous signs are not proof of the blessing of or the holy spirits presence. and their view of the leading of the holy spirit is suspect… very common among the western church as well.
saint from ‘dogfightatbankstown’ is good on this subject and said recently in another blog re africa…
“But really if you have been to Africa (and I have visited some parts) you can stand on a corner and scream DEMON! and thousands will come running to see - be they Christians, Muslims, animists or whatever. That is the nature of many African communities. “God” of some sort, permeates their life.”
August 15th, 2006 at 2:05 pm
Rolland and Heide Baker came to a conference nearby so I went along to listen. Rolland was touted as a great speaker and healer. He spent the first twenty five minutes blowing into the microphone and murmuring “come Holy Spirit”. Several women in the audience laughed uncontrollably, urged on by Baker. I went out for a while for some fresh air. The evening ended with some claims of healing and a couple of lengthened legs. Of course, a love offering for “this tremendous couple” was encouraged (stipulated).
Much has been prophesied about this mode of evangelism.
August 15th, 2006 at 2:30 pm
why am i not surprised roger?
August 15th, 2006 at 2:37 pm
And the irony is that the burden of proof is somehow pushed and thrust upon those who are a little concerned that this isn’t really right. It’s kind of like if you think there’s something wrong with this then it’s up to you to prove it… if you make a bizarre spiritual claim the burden of proof is on you, frankly.
August 15th, 2006 at 3:45 pm
I am afraid I tend to be more sceptical these days. 53 people raised from the dead and this is the first time I hear about it?? ..mmm… sounds a bit like Bonnke with his staffer he raised from the dead - no wait a minute - that was a sham death certificate! And where did that take place - oh Africa, yep.
It seems that these days ordinary people no longer have an original idea themselves - it has to be a vision or an anointing or a whatever - attributing everything to a spirit induced involvement and I’m concerned which spirit had the influence.
As for miracles I’ve seen a good video of one lately which is a prime example.
August 15th, 2006 at 3:50 pm
Need a little miracle at present guys - Lionfish Jnr, Jnr (2 years) has broken his leg last night in a fall. We spent the night in hospital, he will spend the next month in traction… hard stuff for a two year old.
The healing process that occurs naturally coupled with the intellect of our medical practioners is wonderful witness in itself.
Look at the fringes of the natural and you will witness the wonder of what I would term ‘common’ miracles that occur all the time - all around us.
Maybe this is why Jesus said it is a “‘wicked and perverse generation that demands a ‘miracle’”.
August 15th, 2006 at 4:13 pm
Hey Lionfish I hope and pray he feels better soon. I can empathise in a way with him - I broke both my shoulders at once and then had to have each humerus bone sawn in two and rotated 180 deg then reconnected to my arms with steel plates - I know the God given regenerating power in the human body - the doctors and the pain killers help but He does the healing.
You’re right too often we disregard the ordinary when in fact it is already incredible. Is it not a miracle that this wicked and perverse generation is still allowed to exist - how patient is God!
August 15th, 2006 at 4:14 pm
Praying for your son bro.
rev
August 15th, 2006 at 4:17 pm
Ouch for little lionfish junior…that is going to be a hard track (get it?..track?…traction?…oh never mind) for the little guy. I will however pray for him and your family.
I am yet to find one single miracle that I can truly accept as being miraculous…that is something other than a remarkable natural healing or even worse a fake.
I worked for Teeen Challenge for some time and at one point they published in thier newsletter that a prayer team of theirs had been on the streets of Kings Cross and had been praying for a junkie who had overdosed and he came back to life.
Well the truth of it was (and I spoke to the prayer team…personla friends of mine at te time) that an ambulance was called and the officers pumped the guy full of narcane which counteracts the effects of opiates on the body…no miracle…other than a very blessed young man who had the ambulance officers arrive in time to help him.
Don’t let the truth get in the road of a good story
August 15th, 2006 at 4:20 pm
Lionfish, I’ll be thinking of you guys, but if it helps…
My brother broke his leg and spent 6 weeks in traction when he was 8 or 9. The boredom of lying flat on his back for 6 weeks was a blessing in disguise…he became very good at trumpet (thanks to the patience of the hospital staff) and basically learnt to read (he went into hospital disinterested in anything academic - to the point of worrying my parents - and came out a total book worm!)
That’s not to dismiss anything you’re poor little son’s going to go through, but just to say that there might be a silver lining there somewhere…
August 15th, 2006 at 4:41 pm
If there’s a silover lining in his bone…does lionfish have exploration and mining rights? or do they fall back to the commonwealth?
August 15th, 2006 at 5:53 pm
as a youth pastor i find this a very difficult subject. i too am yet to see a bone-fide miracle.
last week we were looking at the feeding of the five thousand and i asked everyone if they’d ever seen or heard of a miracle like that…one piece of bread become two pieces of bread. creatio ex nihilo. nope. all the miracles are miracle and even worse, 99% of them are internal.
the problem is, as abtruth helpfully states, the burden of proof is actually something i have to wear! i’m seen as some kind of bordering-on-in-league-with-the-devil because i don’t buy the miraculous claims of even charlatans like benny hinn.
but i don’t want my teenagers to be naive about these things either.
i don’t think miracles make an ounce of difference to faith…as testified to the fact that the multitude of witnesses to the miracles of jesus ended up crucifying him…
but then, i’m left asking myself, “where do miracles happen and would i believe it if i saw it?” and then “would anyone here else believe me if i told them?” in which case “is it only a sign for the witnesses to the miracle?” which leads me to, “why throw cold water on these stories we hear from yonder when it isn’t meant to make a difference for me anyway?”
August 15th, 2006 at 5:55 pm
“all the miracles are miracle” d’oh. i meant all the miracles are medical…
August 15th, 2006 at 6:16 pm
I have seen miracles first hand.
We will be having a discussion on miracles at the Cave on Sunday night. We will be looking at a passage in Acts and talking about how it applies to us.
I hope we can look at a healthy practical position in between the two extremes:
If it cannot be duplicated in a double blind scientific test it didn’t happen
and
the extremes of the word faith movement and the lusting after signs and wonders to somehow make our faith real.
Any of you are welcome to come by, or contribute some ideas to the discussion on my blog.
rev
August 15th, 2006 at 6:18 pm
Thanks guys. I have faith that lil’ lionfish will be jumping puddles again soon!
August 15th, 2006 at 7:45 pm
Joh 6:11 -And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would.
I guess in my mind, as far as the miracles of jesus goes, I have always thought that 5000 people saw Jesus break the loaves and the fishes and multiply them to everyone. But what I really think is that the disciples were the only ones who saw the actual miacle, everyone else just ate the food, but Jesus taught them by the miraculous and the people with His teaching. The teaching was not overshadowed by the miracle, becasue the word is what brings hope and changes people. Jesus said the pharisees would not believe though one were raised from the dead.
Most people miss the miraculous becasue they are looking for the spectacular. And, What IS a miracle - it is anything that God does for you that you cannot do yourself… (my take anyway) - That’s why miraculous things happen and we MISS it, because it wasn’t BIG or NOTICABLE or WOW! or OH
August 15th, 2006 at 9:22 pm
your son LF is a real cutie… almost as cute as mine… he will be fine no doubt. my thoughts are with you… i would rather take the hit for my son as you would but…. lifes not like that
August 16th, 2006 at 1:12 am
Just had to respond to these comments…
Like the rev, I’ve seen miracles first hand.
Unlike I think all the commentators so far, I’ve met and spent a little time with Heidi and Rolland. Also, several good friends of mine, who I have known for over ten years and whose character I find totally trustworthy, have visited the Baker’s in Mozambique.
I don’t like the assumption running through these comments that if something is reported to have happened in Africa it is not only unverifiable but also a lie. That is a nasty, racist assumption. Given that many of the commentators on this post are Aussies, I might suggest that there is also an unhealthy dose of Tall Poppy Syndrome at play…
I don’t like the anti-miraculous operating here, either. Jesus healed the sick, miraculously; gave his disciples power and authority to do the same; and commissioned them to make disciples of all people groups through all generations until Jesus returned, teaching them to do all that he had commanded them – which includes exercising Jesus’ delegated power and authority to heal miraculously…
I do believe that Heidi and Rolland are immature in certain aspects of their faith. And so am I, and so are you. We all are. So let’s not mouth off about the speck in my brother’s eye…
I do believe that there is a difference between how Heidi and Rolland operate in the West and in Mozambique. When they do conferences in the west, they often can’t speak normally, or even stand up. Their behaviour – whether it is under the influence of the Holy Spirit, the devil, or anything else – is offensive to the mind. And when our mind is offended, I think we are required to ask of ourselves, why? I’m not prescribing an answer, but I do believe that much of what I see in the Bible is offensive to the mind, and that it is just possible that God chooses to offend the mind in order to expose the heart…
I also believe that there is a marked difference between the miracles – both in quantity and qualitatively – attributed to Heidi and Rolland in Mozambique and in the West. And this might be because the claims from Africa are exaggerated, or even lies. But it might be that there is an openness to receiving the miraculous in Africa, and a communal scepticism in the West. I’d certainly point to evidence of communal scepticism in the comments on this post…and if Jesus found that he could do few miracles in sceptical Nazareth, why would we expect Heidi and Rolland, if ‘genuine,’ to be able to do lots of miracles in sceptical contexts?
If you think there is no aspect of your life in which God might want to challenge you through the Baker’s, fine. Just take a moment before the sledging starts…
August 16th, 2006 at 1:42 am
“Victory Reports July 2006
ARMADALE CHURCH
During the Jeff Baker revival we had visitors every night except Tuesday. We had 30 saved About 25 healed of neck,shoulder,back,leg and knee pain.Most caused bt arthritis,a few by injuries. We had about 6 legs grow out. 2 from serious motorcycle accidents. One 4 cm! ….”
From http://www.pottershouse.com/announcements.asp
August 16th, 2006 at 3:10 am
“communal scepticism” . Can I use that in my Sunday message.
Dan and Phil would you give Andrew Dowsett my e-mail address - Dan would you drop a line to me when you get it.? Would love to converse off line.
kevin
August 16th, 2006 at 5:20 am
hi - I’m happy for that info to be in the public domain…
my email is andrew[at]dowsetts[dot]net
my blog, kairos : kisses, is www[dot]dowsetts[dot]net
some of you will know it already; others won’t…I was in Perth, WA, for 3 months last year…
I’m in UK (for working out time difference)
August 16th, 2006 at 5:42 am
andrew,
thanks for your reply, but i’m not sure if the ‘racist’ finger wag is a fair one. and i especially struggle with the ‘anti-miraculous’ comment too.
i’m definitely pro-miracle, i just don’t want to call something by which it is not. i want to be truthful about it. if something is not a miracle, and i claim that it is, then i am a liar and a fool. what kind of testimony or sign does that become?
here’s how i see it:
are less scientifically oriented sub-cultures more open to the miraculous or are they more open to attributing miracle to events that could be otherwise explained without seeking that explanation? is empirical naivety a prerequisite to faith?
as yet, i am yet to hear of anyone who has seen one piece of bread become two. all the miracles are medically oriented.
anyone? anyone got a non-medical miracle story there?
and i’m not asking that my faith be enhanced, my faith is fine without this, but i do want to deepen my understanding of the miraculous.
August 16th, 2006 at 6:22 am
So are you asking for a non-medical, does that eliminate all healing. Some healing is miraculous, tumors disappearing, and the like. Some healing is quickened process types of healing. The Bible doesn’t say they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall instantly recover. Some healing is lengthier. Case would be when Jesus prayed for the man who saw men as tree’s. He was better, but not healed, then Jesus prayed a second time and he received his sight.
Again with healing, it is the desire for the spectacular that makes us miss the super natural. My back was instantly healed in 1994, I was facing $80,000 dollars in surgury and God did it in a moment, (without sensation or SHONDA or anything.) An evangelist layed hands on me and I was healed. I didn’t fully relaize it for a couple of months. I was so used to being careful how I stepped down off a curb, to not climb ladders, - when you have an injury for 17 years like mine was, you try to baby it, and i continued to baby it out of habbit. I had no pain and had all of my mobility back, but it was after acouple of months I realized I was healed
I haven’t had a minutes pain, nor has it stopped me since Dec.9, 1994.
Not a doctor visit for my back and I haven’t been to a chiropractor since - was going 2-3 times aweek for ANY relief. If you have had back pain - (mine was from an accident on a trampoline) and I was facing disc fusion on my C5 - I can attest to this - God heals! I wish it would have happened in Africa though, - I’d be famous now and on the Proffesional Speaking Circuit - telling the world of the event…. As it is i guess I’ll just use SignPosts.
August 16th, 2006 at 7:09 am
I don’t know Heidi Baker, but I know people who follow her ministry closely and have been on some related mission trips to Mozambique. I’ve seen (through video) Heidi speak, and my best description would be “bizarre.” Funny thing, though–my most respected Christian mentors are the ones who follow her so closely. Hmmm.
Maybe the nutjob extremist inspires my ‘dreamer’ pastor and his wife, who then inspire me, a functional idealist, for lack of a better description. I (hopefully) inspire people even more pragmatic than me. Engineers maybe?
Maybe the engineers use such inspiration to keep the electricity on and flowing to Heidi Baker’s microphone. I don’t know.
I have to say I’m ambivalent on the subject of miracles. My scientific side says no, clearly no, but my philosophical side tells me that everything good in me is somehow linked back to the existance of miracles. In the end I’m not at a point in the personality food chain where I have to believe to still be relevant to God’s purpose.
August 16th, 2006 at 7:18 am
Just to reply to stu’s points:
The tone of many of the above comments is dismissive of these reports on the grounds that they come from Africa, and reports from Africa are notoriously over-exaggerated. The not-very-subtle implication is that africans are naive and/or dishonest; and I really do think there are unchallenged racial prejudices at play, though I’m not accusing anyone of being an ideologically committed racist.
I’m not sure the question “are less scientifically oriented sub-cultures more open to the miraculous or are they more open to attributing miracle to events that could be otherwise explained without seeking that explanation?” leads to an either-or answer; or a relevant one…Jesus’ contemporaries were not scientifically oriented, but that does not mean that the miracles were not, in fact, miraculous…
“is empirical naivety a prerequisite to faith?” of course not, and I agree that we shouldn’t rush to call something miraculous. But empirical sophistication is not a prerequisite for faith either; and sophistication, as much as naivity, can be a stumbling block to faith…
Regarding non-medical miracle claims, the Bakers make several claims of food multiplication - they are recorded in the book of their story, which is titled “There is always enough”. Of course, if we discredit their testimony, that is of no use; but if we are prepared to keep an open mind, it at least provides an answer - satisfactory or otherwise - to your question.
Anyway, time for bed over here in UK…I might drop by again ‘tomorrow’…
August 16th, 2006 at 7:54 am
I have seen non medical miracles a few times. I saw food multiplied once, and I have seen people know things that were impossible to know, (they were very very specific, and I was really blown away) though I didn’t look for headsets and ear pieces.
rev
August 16th, 2006 at 9:33 am
Yup! This is one i had forgotten. My wife and I had 20 dollars materialize in front of us, when we were in desparate need of it. My mother had an old bible that we had in some boxes in storage for over 10 years. We were going through the box after a prayer meeting one nite and it “appeared” as it fell from the pages that were open where we were readin Hab 3:17. The date on the bill was only 3 years old, but we flat out know that the Bible had been in storage for 10 yrs. That was 1994.
August 16th, 2006 at 9:40 am
But Kevin forgot to add that it was 94 and he was on holiday in africa
rev
August 16th, 2006 at 9:41 am
In stark contrast to Rolland and Heidi Baker’s self congratulatory promotion of their own anointing, the same conference included an aboriginal pastor from the NT. His humble, selfless giving into the lives of others was evident in the way he spoke. His words were carefully given. His faith was closely aligned to the word of God. The miracles he spoke of were those of changed lives and healed hearts. His gentleness had a quiet authority and the laughing women were silent. He was a man who wanted to get a little bit closer to Jesus. There was no coercion to give money, but he got mine anyway.
Compared to the Bakers’ false claims of healing and dead raising his miracles were genuine. In a welcome relief from twenty five minutes of microphone blowing his words could have pierced the most hard hearted.
By their fruits you shall know them. The evidence is clear. The false claims are deceptive. No conundrum on this one.
(Will be praying for Lionfish jnr)