Miracles of healing
From a comment in one of our threads, we have a reference to this article which includes the following:
Just days before she arrived in Cincinnati, Baker prayed for two blind beggars who wandered into her tent meeting at her base in Pemba, Mozambique. Both men instantly received their sight after Baker wet her fingers with saliva and touched their eyes.
Such astounding miracles are common to Heidi and Rolland. They have seen God supernaturally multiply rice and chili to feed hungry orphans. Heidi has watched paralytics walk for the first time after they received prayer. And indigenous pastors the Bakers trained in Mozambique have raised 53 people from the dead so far.
Greg says:
I don;t think I’ve ever heard of Heidi Baker - but whenever i see stuff like this printed about anyone - especially when it says it’s happened in Africa where i’s phenominally hard to source the accurate reports or get confirmation of events and facts - very dubious - but agree with the message.
I’d like to hear what others think about things like the above.
I have a whole series of books on people trying to prove that miracles occur and trying to document “miraculous” happenings. It must be the sceptic in me that reaches out to these kinds of things. What do others think?
August 16th, 2006 at 10:04 am
These guys do look like typical pentecostal hucksters, and I do see why people doubt their “miracles”. However, the suggestion of the above post seems to be that no supernatural things happen. I know this to be untrue.
I guess I would ask why pray for lionfish jrs leg if there is no real hope for anything other than “internal change” And do you believe the miracles in the bible? If so why did they stop?
I don’t like to talk about my experiences, because I often get ridiculed, and it does seem a bit weird. I do not believe God wants miracles to be used as spiritual currency, or self or even God promotion. But there is much more to this world than what we are comfortable with, and the wacko’s may cause us to worry about things, and even doubt, but there is a God who created the entire universe, and this God is still at work today.
rev
August 16th, 2006 at 10:18 am
Pentecostal Hucksters? What are you implying, that pentecostals are all hucksters?
August 16th, 2006 at 10:28 am
Andrew - I can’t speak for others, but I am suspicious of claims coming from Africa (or any developing country on any other continent) simply because such miracles are often harder to verify via media etc. I’m not saying the media in Australia is more reliable - I’m saying that information flows operate differently.
Also, I don’t know that it’s “racist”, it’s more an acknowledgement of differing levels of access to informtion, education etc. In the Solomons, PNG - and I’m sure elsewhere in the Pacific - many people are convinced that coconuts cure HIV/AIDs. It’s been discussed in the national parliaments, despite many parliamentarians having studied in the West. When I asked people how they “knew” about this, they consistently told me that they “read it on the internet”. Now, this isn’t limited to Melanesia - my mother recently ran a class for her year 9 students where she set up a fake website advertising velcro farms….the kids were fascinated, they never realised that velcro came from an animal before!!! The point is that this has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with access to information and the education to critique that information.
August 16th, 2006 at 10:53 am
kevin, not at all. I am a pentecostal, but there is a special brand of huckster that is the pentecostal type. And I am not even saying that these two are hucksters, but it does sound like it.
rev
August 16th, 2006 at 11:01 am
rev, just for clarification, I am a firm believer in the miraculous. I am of the firm conviction of God’s supernatural work in this world. That is why I hate the deliberate manipulation of that trust and understanding by so many false healers.
August 16th, 2006 at 11:10 am
Greg the Explorer,
I worked for Teen Challenge for a while as well, Lets just say most of their miracles are back behind bars or strung out on some street. The more we expose those who claim to be doing miracles when in fact they have just either down right lied, cheated or stretched the truth to make their sermons sound exciting or to gain much needed funds to support their lavish lifestyles the more we just turn an walk away beleiveing they are just another Benny Hinn. I have been involved with churches for over 30 years and have never seen one miracle such as bring back the dead or the blind being healed. Most of the miracles that are claimed can be simply explained. I am not one to say that God doesnt raise people from the dead but being exposed constantly to scams has made me very skeptical
August 16th, 2006 at 11:11 am
Cool, I agree it is a shame
rev
August 16th, 2006 at 12:37 pm
Roger, I concur with your statement at #35. Manipulation of the truth is not acceptable regardless of the pragmatic outcome. The ends do not justify the means. For eg. Mike Warnke. Without taking away importance and belief in God’s past, present and future supernatural involvement including miracles we are not justified in truth manipulation or telling out right lies for the furtherance of the gospel.
This is only another step back to atheism.
When people discover that they have been conned and the person they trusted for truth is revealed to be a sham, a huckster (regardless of any penetcostal persuasion - although prevalent), a charlatan, a false prophet or whatever - then they tend to lose their faith and disbelieve in God at all. We see this all the time and the rev is right it is a shame - a crying shame.
If being a Christian groups me with these types of liers then I don’t want to be identified with them - I will identify with Christ only.
August 16th, 2006 at 1:00 pm
that is why I often say I am not a Christian but a follower of Christ. I do not want to be associated with the Crusades, the inquisition, or Benny Hinn.
rev
August 16th, 2006 at 1:14 pm
I believe in miracles. I have seen too many “little” ones to doubt — words of knowledge that were definitely not from human insight (these happened in small group situations, no mikes involved), little healings (like someone’s sore ear that just stopped hurting during prayer for them) and all those answers to prayer that”might” be coincidences. None of these things are the sort to make big claims about, but when you are there you know that God was there at that time. my problem is with people who are promoted as miracle workers. I believe that miracles happen to give glory to Jesus, and as tangible demonstrations of God’s mercy to His children, things He does just because he loves us. I suddenly get very cynical when i see miracles touted to promote somebody’s ministry — I thought the glory all belonged to God? I don’t know these people, I don’t want to jump to conclusions, but i do think we are called to be discerning, and someone’s ministry is to be judged by the fruit of the Spirit, not by how spectacular it is
August 16th, 2006 at 1:17 pm
Well then let’s coin the phrase …christian hucksters. This way we don’t have to malign the pentecostal hucksters who seem to do a good job of maligning themselves.
August 16th, 2006 at 1:23 pm
No, I am quite comfortable maligning them as they are the types I am talking about now. If I meant fundie hucksters like Falwell I would describe them as such.
rev
August 16th, 2006 at 1:28 pm
Okay, okay, okay. Yhis happened in my church to a woman whom I know. She was visiting during our services with an evangelist. I used to work with her and can only say (becasue of HIPPA guidelines) her first name Barbara.
She had already undergone a biopsy on a tumor and had confirmed cancer - i think Lukemia, could have been Hodgkins, i get confused as to which is which. She had 17 lumps in her body, only one had been biopsied though. She was told to come back for a consultation on surgery, chemo or radiation - all probably being required. She came to the meeting and was (through the word of knowledge) identified as having a serious helth issue, to which she answered yes, but was non specific as to the condition to the evangelist. He simply prayed for her and said ” the Holy Spirit doesn’t lie, it’s his idea to say something to you - and I just believe god wants to do something for you” End of prayer
She went back tho her Dr’s on the following Wednesday - who could not find any of the 17 lumps or even the one that was biopsied. She called me to tell about it before she called her family. No treatment, no lumps and this was a year and a half ago and she is still clear of cancer.
I just wish this would have happened in Africa so i could be on th eProfessional Speaking Circuit… darned Lionfish, this is all his fault.
August 16th, 2006 at 3:53 pm
In one study, despite patients reporting the doctor’s explanation was adequate, the average number of retained facts was 3 out of 12. When a layperson tells me something medical about themselves I always wonder, what’s the 75% of the story I’m not hearing?
August 16th, 2006 at 5:05 pm
Are the Bakers African? I have been working on the assumnption that they (like Bonnke) are western imports - western white imports at that and so the claim that my concern at the lack of verifiability becuase these events occur in Africa is rqcist doesn’t hold water with me.
I have personally prayed for people and had words from God direnctly to them. This hasn’t happened often. I never met this guy prior to praying for him and I told him that I beliveed God wanted him to forgive his brother . After the service the guy told me that he had been struggling for weeks with just this issue. Miracle? Word from God…yes.
Do I believe that poeple ahve been raised from the dead. No. Do I belive that Smith Wigglesworth raised peopoe fromt he dead…no, Bakers, No, Bonnke No Anyone…Yes…Jesus..anyone else…no. There are many theings that occur that are beyonf explanation…legs growing longer don;t make me wonder at God…a child, a flower, this site, the words of a poem and the words of the bible…these things are miracles that stand up and show me that God loves me and is very very real.
August 16th, 2006 at 5:19 pm
So Peter and Paul and paul didn’t raise people from the dead?
and if they did, as the bible says they did then why wouldn’t that be possible now?
rev
August 16th, 2006 at 8:13 pm
I read the book by the Bakers. I think they were American and worked in an extremely poor area in Mozambique with orphans. If they keep working there, we can be confident that they are not living the high life that other Christian leaders live.
August 16th, 2006 at 10:39 pm
Well they definately have my respect for that.
rev
August 16th, 2006 at 10:49 pm
I find it sad that so many people on this thread seem to have no qualms about passing judgement on people they have never met, and whose story they have not taken the time to research in detail…it wouldn’t stand up in a court of law, let alone a Court of Grace.
Let me restate what I see in the Gospels. Everyone who comes to Jesus asking to be healed (and some who don’t ask) is healed…moreover, Jesus delegates his power and authority to heal the sick, raise the dead, and drive out demons, to his disciples…first 12, then 72…then the commission to make disciples of all people groups and every generation until Jesus returns, teaching them to obey everything Christ had taught his first disciples…which includes, go and use my delegated power and authority to heal the sick, raise the dead, drive out demons…
I’m not a fundamentalist, and I’m not a pentecostal. But as I see Jesus, and discipleship, unfolded for us in the Gospels, I can only conclude that these activities are meant to be normative for those who follow Jesus. What is unique about Jesus is that salvation is only to be found in him, not that only he can perform miracles: he performed the miracles not because he was God (which he was - but emptied of power, see Philippians), but because he was human available to God.
I guess my question is not, are the miracles attributed to Heidi and Rolland genuine or not; but, why are there not (more) reported and verified miracles attributed to you, and to me?
It seems to me that Jesus operated - and sent his disciples to operate - by demonstrating the kingdom of God breaking in to peoples lives, and then inviting them to respond…whereas so often we demand of people that they respond to some theoretical religious doctrinal statement…
I guess it is easier to piss on other peoples failures as disciples (that Peter denied Jesus; James and John had a nasty temper; the Bakers are charlatans…) than to take an honest look at ourselves.
August 16th, 2006 at 11:43 pm
You say you’re not interested in the truthfulness of the miracles attributed to the Bakers - I contend that it is of paramount importance that truth be spoken, lived and backed up. See Jn 18:37b Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.[Jesus to Pilate]
So do you mean that I am not a normal Christian if dead bodies around me don’t come back to life? It seems you imply that miracles (I guess you mean the really spectactular way out there kind of miracle) should be happening all the time around the everyday garden variety of christian - and obviously this is not the case so what then do you really mean? And because this is not occurring do you conclude that we are not good enough disciples - that we are failures? Or that we are not weird enough?
As you said the bakers may be charlatans and I will go a step further and say they were not the first nor will they be the last either.
By the way you quote Philipians - and I presume you are referring to Phil 2:6-9 which actually is different to what you imply - Jesus,(6) Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness…etc It does not say he emptied himself of power nor that he was emptied of power and commentaries say about him not giving up his deity but laying aside the rights and glory of his position and became human.
August 17th, 2006 at 12:02 am
This small bio from http://www.cbn.com/700club/guests/bios/randy-clark040606.aspx
An example of the fruit of impartation is Rolland and Heidi Baker, long-term missionaries in Mozambique. Rolland is the grandson of Pentecostal missionary to China H.A. Baker, and grew up hearing about the miraculous work his grandfather did. Rolland and Heidi went to Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship (where the Toronto Blessing occurred) at different times and were touched by God and His power. They received words about spiritual revival for Mozambique. The Bakers prayed for the local people to receive healing and they did. Through the years, they have seen lasting fruit in the country. They have started 7,000 churches, seen almost a million converts, and as of March 2006, 54 people raised from the dead mostly in Muslim provinces.
August 17th, 2006 at 12:26 am
I didn’t say that the truthfulness of the miracles attributed to the Bakers is not important, even - as you put it - of paramount importance. What I said was, that was not the question I want to ask in this discussion. Let us say, for arguments sake, that the Baker miracles are false, but assume that miracles are possible…and my question still stands.
Do I mean you are not a normal Christian? Yes, and no. I’d suggest that you are normative in regards to the vast majority of Christians; and that you - along with that vast majority - are not normative in relation to Jesus’ definition of discipleship, and hope for his followers. You might not like that, but that is what I believe.
But, I don’t intend that as a writing-off of Christians, myself included. On several occasions, Jesus says to the 12 disciples that their faith is not as it should be - generally in the context of them not being able to perform miracles…but he also says that their faith (and therefore I am assuming ours) can grow - indeed, that faith is supposed to grow. There is no such thing as static faith. Speaking for myself, I have first-hand experience of healing the sick and driving out demons; but not of raising the dead. And, yes, I see that as an area where my faith needs to grow. It has got nothing to do with my not being good enough - or anyone else not being good enough! But, if you don’t believe that you are supposed to raise the dead, then I guess you will never put yourself in a position where your faith for seeing the dead raised will grow.
Oh, and its not about weird either…though Jesus, who did some pretty weird stuff, was accused of being a charlatan, possessed by the devil…so, I guess you’re right when you say the Bakers (or Smith wigglesworth, or anyone else) weren’t the first to be under that charge. And I’m not suggesting for one moment that we shouldn’t weigh everything; but cynicism is as deceived a position as naivity. The Pharisees were pretty convinced in their own minds that they knew how God operated, and Jesus was a fake because he didn’t fit their views.
Regarding Philippians, the hymn tells us that Jesus emptied himself, and took on the nature of a servant. Orthodox Christianity has long maintained that he emptied himself not of his divine nature, but of his divine power. An often used illustration is of a water jug with the water poured out: it still remains, fundamentally, a jug; but it is empty unless filled again. Moreover, a servant, by nature, has absolutely no power and absolutely no authority. In taking the nature of a servant, Jesus laid aside his power and authority, and operated throughout his earthly life through the Father’s power and authority at work in him…
I want to be really clear that I don’t mean for this to be an attack on you, or anyone commenting on this post. But I do want to respond to specific questions asked of me, and I do want to challenge assumptions - just as I hope that my own assumptions will be challenged by others.
August 17th, 2006 at 12:45 am
By the way, I believe that the reason why the miraculous is supposed to be normative for disciples of Jesus is not to ‘prove’ anything about God (it certainly didn’t work for Jesus!); or to force people to “give their lives to Christ” (I don’t think everyone who Jesus healed became a long-term follower - and I don’t think their healing was revoked if they chose not to follow); or to wow the crowd (Jesus often told people to keep quiet)…but simply to demonstrate to people God’s unconditional love for them…that he is for them, not against them…that he comes, through his servants, to set free those held captive…
…and if we were to ask God to soften our hearts - and I’m including myself here as much as anyone else - so that we might love people like that, we might just see more of the miraculous at work in our lives without trying. (After all, people were healed by Peter’s shadow and Paul’s tent-maker’s sweat rag…)
August 17th, 2006 at 2:05 am
HMMM… and if we were to ask God to soften our hearts - and I’m including myself here as much as anyone else …
hMMM… HARD TO ARGUE AGAINST THAT ONE.
August 17th, 2006 at 10:38 am
OK Rev…Peter and Paul can be added to the list of people who ahve had the dead raised by their prayers…anyone else NO NO NO NO NO. So Andrew..answer your own question…why donpt people get raised from te dead in western countries? A better question is why don;t people like the bakers and bonnke et al go to all te morgues when they come over here looking for money and raise our dead for us? Why donp;t they ask people to bring their dead to their meetings in our countries? I’ll tell you why - bevcuase it’s crap it;s shit it doesn;t happen - once your dead your dead - full stop end of story
August 17th, 2006 at 12:45 pm
Well I have known people that have seen it happen in the states. But you haven’t answered my question, if Paul and Peter did it, why couldn’t someone else?
And Jesus made mention of scepticism being disempowering. Also it would seem to me that with all of our medical technology healings don’t seem to be needed as much in a western context, and with Christianity being more of a cerebral thing, and not really a spiritual thing here in the west, that might be part of it too. Now again I do not believe God does miracles to elevate people. And that is why these kind of things bug me, its like look how spiritually powerful I am. In fairness, this has become expected of people in foreign missions among pentecostal traditions. We want to hear amazing stories so we will feel good about giving you our money rather than Benny.
rev
August 17th, 2006 at 1:13 pm
I have raised a man for the dead. If as you say, GTE, that when you’re dead, you’re dead. He only lived for a year afterwards and i won a life Saving award. He had been dead for about 2 minutes after having a heart attack and I was the first person that could get to him.
So he was DEAD - and I did the breathes while a friend did the compressions, and we brought him back to life, at least that’s what the doctor said. He died in 2003, I did it in 2001. He had a lot of trouble from it though.
Point is, if you can do it with CPR - then it’s NOT when you’re dead you’re dead.
August 17th, 2006 at 1:24 pm
A more detailed look at the Bonnke incident
http://www.moriel.org/discernment/pastor_raised_from_dead_at_rheinhard_bonnke_event.htm
August 17th, 2006 at 1:58 pm
According to moriel’ definition this was NOT a REAL miracle. Jesus merely woke a girl up and the people who thought she was dead were mistaken.
Mark 5:35-43
35 While he yet spake, there came from the ruler of the synagogue’s house certain which said, Thy daughter is dead: why troublest thou the Master any further? 36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe. 37 And he suffered no man to follow him, save Peter, and James, and John the brother of James. 38 And he cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the tumult, and them that wept and wailed greatly. 39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth. 40 And they laughed him to scorn. But when he had put them all out, he taketh the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entereth in where the damsel was lying. 41 And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha cumi; which is, being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise. 42 And straightway the damsel arose, and walked; for she was of the age of twelve years. And they were astonished with a great astonishment. 43 And he charged them straitly that no man should know it; and commanded that something should be given her to eat.
I guess the miracle is that she was such a heavy sleeper that only God could wake her!
August 17th, 2006 at 2:08 pm
I am struggling with this idea that raising people from the dead is somehow the uber-christian role.
What do you say to the grieving family members of some who had just died? Let’s pray and bring them back to life?
If God can raise people from the dead (and I think he can), AND chooses to allow this to happen (which I do not believe), then why does it not happen more regardless of culture, country etc.
I see miracles of God all the time - but not the kind that requires the laws of physics or anything else to be broken. But times when the shackled are unshackled, the demons of oppression, injustice are overthrown, the weak are made strong and the needy are helped. I see people coming back to life as they find new life in Jesus but they were not dead in the non-breathing sense.
God is at play here no doubt. I believe they are miracles but I struggle with the assumption that Christians in any normative sense are meant to go around raising people from the dead literally.