Miracles of healing
From a comment in one of our threads, we have a reference to this article which includes the following:
Just days before she arrived in Cincinnati, Baker prayed for two blind beggars who wandered into her tent meeting at her base in Pemba, Mozambique. Both men instantly received their sight after Baker wet her fingers with saliva and touched their eyes.
Such astounding miracles are common to Heidi and Rolland. They have seen God supernaturally multiply rice and chili to feed hungry orphans. Heidi has watched paralytics walk for the first time after they received prayer. And indigenous pastors the Bakers trained in Mozambique have raised 53 people from the dead so far.
Greg says:
I don;t think I’ve ever heard of Heidi Baker - but whenever i see stuff like this printed about anyone - especially when it says it’s happened in Africa where i’s phenominally hard to source the accurate reports or get confirmation of events and facts - very dubious - but agree with the message.
I’d like to hear what others think about things like the above.
I have a whole series of books on people trying to prove that miracles occur and trying to document “miraculous” happenings. It must be the sceptic in me that reaches out to these kinds of things. What do others think?
August 17th, 2006 at 2:22 pm
You know Phil, even Jesus didn’t go around raising ALL the dead - what 3-4 times…oh yeah there is that part about the dead coming to life inJerusalem around His death… but aside from that, I think it is the fact that it is sooo exploited and if you look at Jesus in ALL of His miracles, he does not exploit them. People talked about it, but His website and monthly newsletter said nothing about it. Go and tell no one.
I think the problem that we have is number one - some people wouldn’t believe in a miracle no matter what. They are full of unbelief.
Number two… Some people exaggerate a miracle to give God a little help and make him more spectacular so people will like him
number three… when God does miracles it is amazing.
I knew two men who were dead and raised back to life and they knew not how. But they were “somewhere else” One was a Christian and one was not. The one who was not said he was on a conveyor headed into a dark place, when he heard a voice say “whose side is he on?” and then “He is not ready yet, return Him” he had been shocked by 440 volts and was dead for at least 10 miutes, according to what he told me.
The other man drank a soft drink and it had a wasp in the can that stung him on his tongue. He died almost instantly and was 30 minutes waiting for the ambulance. Pronounced dead at the scene. He came back to life and I can’t remember the way of coming back, but it was enroute to the hospital.
His energy was somewhat depleted and He used to say ‘ when i died, that took a lot out of me”
August 17th, 2006 at 2:24 pm
You raise an interesting point there Kevin about how Jesus operated - Go and tell no one.
Maybe this should be the test for legit miracles
August 17th, 2006 at 2:44 pm
Yeah, I have been looking at it lately. i call it miralcles without fanfare. it’s what I am preaching on Sunday.
August 17th, 2006 at 3:26 pm
Hi all… I would like to share a personal experience on this issue.
On boxing day 2004, I was enjoying a day at the beach in Rockingham with two close friends (a husband and wife). An incident happened when my friend put his head under the water. As he went for the dunk, he let out a mighty yell. He ran back to the sand in agony – swearing, shouting, etc. He said something was in his eye. We held him down and held his eye open to inspect. We ran cold water over his eye but it would not alleviate the pain. I heard somewhere that you should pour vinegar on a beach sting, so we hopped in my car to take him back to my parents place so I could treat the injury.
On the way to the house his speaking became incoherent until he eventually was unconscious. I reached for a pulse but could not feel anything. I also noticed that he was not breathing. I slapped him in the face to wake him up. Nothing happened. I slapped him again in the face with incredible force, and still… nothing happened. He didn’t even grunt. He just lay there with his head against the passenger seat window – unconscious.
In my unprofessional opinion, he was dead. What is my basis for this? No breathing (that I could observe), and no reaction to hard hits.
I began to pray more fervently than in any other time of my life. I pleaded for God to intervene. I called, and cried, and relied purely on God to perform a miracle. 1 minute from the hospital he woke up. He had appeared to recover a lot. His speech was coherent now. We rushed him into the emergency room. I called my church and asked them to pray for him. People prayed.
1 hour later, he was released from the hospital. He was given adrenaline and told that he had a serious reaction to a jelly fish sting to the eye – the venom went straight to the brain. The doctor actually pulled the tentacle from his eye that was still lodged there.
We all laugh about this incident now, but we all know, me especially that this was God’s intervention. Dead or not – the effects could have been much worse. Thank God. He answered our prayers.
August 17th, 2006 at 3:34 pm
ok…so when your dead your dead may in fact be better read as when your dead your dead unless something happens to intervene? I get your point and concede a little.
I don’t see the need for miracles. If I am deadly serious with myself (and I often am…with miraculous results!) I would say that I find the raising of the dead stories in the bible to be not what they appear to be either.
I do not see (which in itself is not evidence that something is not possible) why God would set in place certain immutable laws of nature/physics/mathematics and then set them aside for a one off, once in a lifetime special offer. For example in mathematics 1+ 1 will always and without change, even after the most ferociously annointed prayer time, = 2.
Supposed miracles do nothing for faith, nothing for evangelism, nothing for anything - what is their purpose? I am with Phil in saying that I see more of a miracle (and certainly more of a benefit for the miraclee - i.e the receiver of the miracle in something like finding God, or kicking an addiction.
Of course I am left with the many people whos word I accept who tell me they have seen miracles. I do not doubt rev, nor do i doubt my own rector when she tells me she has prayed for people who have been on deaths door and ecpected by everyone to die…who avhe then gone on to not die…yet.
August 17th, 2006 at 4:48 pm
I disagree, Greg. God may set in train immutable laws of physics, but we may not understand them in their entireity. When we see something we cannot explain we cry miracle - but that may be due to a gap in our understanding, rather than God stepping outside of set laws to act as he sees fit.
August 17th, 2006 at 4:49 pm
Maybe the Bakers are only small fry compared to David Hogan in Mexico. He raises people from the dead (350 and counting); is thrown supernaturally across rooms; multiplies food; drives his vehicle underwater; is miraculously transported from place to place without the aid of planes, trains or automobiles; is invigorated when new demons are unleashed on him; has a little son who has a hanky that is so anointed he can make people fly just by shaking it at them; he has seen limbs grow on limbless people; he has seen the creation of new brains in a brainless baby; he has seen people fly around the room under the anointing of God.
I am so glad I’m a normal failure of a Christian compared to these giants.
August 17th, 2006 at 5:38 pm
I’ve seen miracles and know that they happen, but I’m always a little wary in light of 2 Peter 2:3;
“In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping”.
August 17th, 2006 at 7:04 pm
Sometimes time-zones can be a nuisance…but I wanted to respond to Phil’s comment…
“I am struggling with this idea that raising people from the dead is somehow the uber-christian role.”
I’m not sure what you mean by uber-christian: do you mean the ‘ultimate role’ a christian can have, or, a role reserved for a ’special class’ of christians? Personally, I don’t see it as the uber-role; I see it as just one of the many things that every-day common-or-garden christians ought to be involved in, as opportunity arises. Its no more, no less, uber than serving your neighbour by mowing their lawn, if that is their need; or telling someone that God loves them. I don’t expect us to be raising the dead every day - indeed, I don’t expect us to be doing all the other things every day either…
“What do you say to the grieving family members of some who had just died? Let’s pray and bring them back to life?”
That’s a hard one, probably contextual…but that is exactly what Jesus did for the widow at Nain and Jairus; what Peter and Paul - and Elijah, GTE - did too…were they pastorally insensitive? No easy answers, but your question needs to be one we wrestle with, not use as a reason to dismiss the possibility…
“If God can raise people from the dead (and I think he can), AND chooses to allow this to happen (which I do not believe), then why does it not happen more regardless of culture, country etc.”
You say you don’t believe God chooses to let raising from the dead happen. As the rev has asked, when did he change his mind? And why? and if not raisings, why should we believe in healings, or any other miracles? The idea of a supernatural-less faith is modernism, and highly problematic for me. And, moreover, does the fact that you don’t believe God allows raisings to happen have any impact on whether you are likely to experience it? I’d suggest so. If we never step out in faith to speak life into a corpse, we’re unlikely to see God move to do so…and if we live in a culture where almost all of the christians share your belief that God does not want to raise the dead, we’re even less likely to see it…
Discipleship isn’t all about raising the dead, any more than it is all about any other one thing. But let’s not rule out anything Jesus told us to do…
August 17th, 2006 at 7:38 pm
I’m thinking about having an extra-marital affair, and wonder whether any of you guys could give me some adivce?
I know that Jesus said that we shouldn’t commit adultery. But it seems to me that this is a very hard saying. Anyway, he didn’t say it to me; he said it to a crowd of first century Jews, and I’m not convinced that it translates to my twentifirst century western cultural context.
Being faithful to my wife does not make sense scientifically. It would be better to mix my genes with a wider selection of genes, to maximise the survival of the species.
I’ve heard unverified stories that a lot of church leaders remain faithful to their wives. But I’m pretty sure that must be at best a gross exageration. They haven’t provided me with any proof.
I hope you can help…
August 17th, 2006 at 8:47 pm
NO ANDREW>>>>DON’T DO IT!!!!!!
August 17th, 2006 at 9:27 pm
I think that the irony may have been lost on our American friend.
August 17th, 2006 at 9:42 pm
Come now Andrew, your analogy (and I will assume it is one unless you give me proof :)) is hardly robust.
I mean are you saying that first century jews understood the world in the same way we do? God is significant in both, but will be expressed and understood differently surely.
Even in the biblical narrative we see the move of this grappling with God. Knowing a little about you - I know you know this and have a better understanding of it than me.
Back to miracles:
By “uber” I was refering to the implication that I was picking up that when we “arrive” as Christians we will be raising people from the dead and healing the physically sick etc. Maybe it is my lack of faith or lack of experience or lack of the right mindset (all seeming are beings implied) that I do not see raising people from the dead as the same as serving my neighbour by mowing their lawns.
If miracles of raising from the dead and healing the sick were confined to the era of Jesus and the apostles - would that make any difference to our faith in God? In other words, do we have a need for such signs and wonders to believe?
August 17th, 2006 at 10:09 pm
Interesting topic… I may as well give you my 2 cents.
As we all know, Christ did indeed heal people physically during his ministry and yes, he did actually raise people from death (which by the way he exclusively referred to as “sleep”).
And yes, the apostles also healed people as well… At least for a season in their ministry.
Late in his ministry Paul was unable to heal Timothy of his ailment and instead told him to “take a little wine on acount of your infirmity” (1 Timothy 5.23)
Why did Paul not just pray for him and heal him?
Was Timothy unable to “name it and claim it”?
Anyway, in all of this Christ says that “The Flesh profits nothing” (John 6.63)
And also that “greater works shall you do” (John 14.12)
Now please tell me, who has done greater works than Christ?
Although I am not disputing that God does indeed physically heal people the question begs to be asked what exactly is “greater works”?
Well quite simply it is doing the spiritual equivalent of Christ’s physical healings.
Paul tells us that God’s order of things is “But not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual” (1 Cor 15.46)
So really if you or I are given the ability to heal spiritual blindness, or heal spiritual leprosy, or raise people from the dead spiritually then we have done “greater works than these”
“…But the crowds pressing on Him, He began to say, This is an evil generation. It seeks a miraculous sign, and a sign will not be given to it, except the sign of Jonah the prophet…” Luke 11.29
WIGGY
August 17th, 2006 at 10:44 pm
But I have seen miracles first hand, some of them quite substantial. Now I don’t like to talk about it and I am definately not seeking a sign. But I am called to have faith and believe, and to pray. And sometimes miraculous stuff happens. Sometimes this helps people to see the reality of Christ, sometimes it helps others to continue in God’s work, and sometimes it seem like God is just doing something because he felt like it.
Now I would trade every miracle I have ever been a part of for one person to come to the knowledge of Christ and become a true follower of the Way. But to say that the God who raised the very planet from nothingness can break any of the laws of Physics He wants.
It is sad to me that so much of this legitmate work of God is thrown into disrepute because of these wackos. It is just as sad that this age of reason and scepticism has made people refuse to believe that God still can, and sometimes does work in signs.
rev
August 17th, 2006 at 10:53 pm
Rev I am not saying God does not still heal people. I truly believe he does, I too have seen evidence I cannot deny.
However, I am saying that physical healing pales in comparison to spiritual healing. They are light worlds apart… Surely you can see that too?
What is interesting also is that not a single person who was phyiscally healed by Christ was “converted” during his 3.5 year physical ministry.
“…But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren…” Luke 22.32
This was to Peter, one of Christ’s own disciples… But even he was not at this time “converted” even though he had witnessed all of Christ’s miracles and had a helping hand in many of them. I think there is a lot in that…
WIGGY
August 17th, 2006 at 11:39 pm
Kevin: I am not going to have an affair. My comment was not irony, nor strictly analogy, but satire - a rhetorical device with a fine heritage, used to expose the fact that the things we assume to be obvious and natural are not, necessarily, obvious and natural at all…
Phil: “If miracles of raising from the dead and healing the sick were confined to the era of Jesus and the apostles - would that make any difference to our faith in God? In other words, do we have a need for such signs and wonders to believe?”
I think I’d answer, yes it would; and, no we don’t.
“If miracles…were confined…” is a hypothetical question, which can only be answered hypotheically. What is not hypothetical is the fact that some Christians believe that miracles ended at some point, and some Christians believe that they haven’t and won’t until Jesus returns…do both groups have faith in God? Yes. Is their faith the same? No: one group has faith that God heals and raises the dead; the other has faith that God doesn’t do these things, but may heal through natural processes, or may provide the strength to endure in this life and be healed in the next…
I don’t see ‘faith’ as some contained package you get given at a conversion point; but something that grows as we each have different opportunities to trust in God for different things, depending on our circumstances. That is not to say that faith is relative (relativism)…but that it is relational - about our relationship, and that of our communities, with Jesus…Lots of things make a difference to our faith - e.g. our upbringing - would you say that your faith today is exactly the same as it was five, or ten, years ago?
Do we need signs and wonders to believe? No. But does the fact that I don’t need something mean that it doesn’t exist or happen? Does the fact that I know that my wife loves me whether or not she gives me a gift from time to time mean that she doesn’t give me gifts? Of course not! The gift is not given so that I believe (that would be manipulative!), but because she loves me. Likewise, miracles are not given so as to put pressure on anyone to believe anything, but because God loves his chilldren - whether they know him or not, and regardless of how they will respond. So, Jesus healed, and didn’t demand - or even expect - conversions.
But, I would suggest that miracles bring out into the open what is already in the heart: belief or unbelief; grateful acceptance or entrenched rejection. Anyway, that too is what I see with Jesus in the Gospels.
Phil, I know that you are a godly man; and I hope that I am, too. I suspect that you are not ‘better’ than me, and I am not ‘better’ than you; but that in some areas your faith is greater than mine and in some areas my faith is great than yours - and that we can learn together. What matters to me is that for each one of us, our faith is growing. It’s not about “arriving” - Jesus was on the move, with nowhere to lay his head - but about following - including following Jesus into crazy areas if that is where he leads (”Jerusalem? That’d be suicide!”) because he knows better than I do. I know that you are following Jesus, and, at the end of the day, that is enough for me.
August 18th, 2006 at 9:36 am
Matt 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Sounds as if it’s already happened!
I’ve seen David Hogan in action too, and he is really scary. In fact, what was more worrying was that the whole church full of people (yes, it was a penetcostal gathering) believed it all and went forward for prayer or a touch of the hanky. His performance was unquestionably corrupt, some would say demonic.
August 18th, 2006 at 9:47 am
Andrew you said
I have heard this said by other people, and have thought it a reasonably legitimate explanation of the lack of miracesl seen in western cultures. However (and we all knew that word was coming) what of the peopoe who all around Jesus did not belive he could heal or raise peopole from the dead (eg the crowd who mourned the death of young tabitha - they laughed at te idea that she was just asleep) and yet Jesus was still able to grace them with miracles.
I wan’t to believ that miracles can occur,,and I do blieve they can I just haven’t seen any and am quite dubious when I hear others speak of them.
BTW I was over the Way Out West - Mark Berry’s blog and saw you posting. I love his blog and have used his St Brendan mediation at our community. Good to see you have taste in blogs.
Rev - I know you don;t like to tralk about ewhat you avh seen - but for the purposes of this discussion could you please tell us about what you ahve seen?
August 18th, 2006 at 11:52 am
I was in a bullfight in Artesia California. My best friend went to the bull and got smashed. He went again and this time he got smashed again, but wound up hopping away, as he could not put any weight on his leg. I then caught the bull on the next try. When I got out of the arena he was on a stretcher and the ambulance told us he has a broken leg and they were taking him to the hospital. I layed hands on him and prayed for him, we both felt like something happened. He got up off the stretcher with no pain in his leg at all. The ambulance people were pretty freaked out, but ofcourse they must have misdiagnosed him. Funnily enough the next day I could barely move, I had been mauled by the bull when I stopped it. I was concussed (no my friend remembers it the same way) and bruised from head to toe. He was as well hurting all over, except for his leg, which was fine. Never mentioned that in a sermon ever.
We had a young man living with us. He had some severe mental problems and really struggled with depression. One night while Raquel and I were at a prayer meeting she began to feel very anxious and almost injured. She told me that she thought something was wrong with Alex, really wrong. I said what do you want to do. She said I don’t know, but its bad. So I said lets pray (no mobile phones for poor people back then). We prayed very hard, and had some others join us. When we got home nothing seemed to be wrong. About four days later Alex said he needed to talk to us. He told us he had tried to commit suicide in our bathroom and showed us his wrists, the left wrist four days later was still ridiculously deep, and the right wrist was cut about twenty times but not deep as he had trouble holding the razor in his left hand after the cuts in that arm. He said there was blood everywhere, and then it just stopped. It didn’t slow down, it just stopped. We asked him when it was, and it was exactly the time we prayed, to the minute.
We did a missionary trip to Mexico to help the migrant farm workers being exploited by American grocery chains. We purchased six large bags of rice. We loaded six large bags of rice into the car. We loaded six large bags of rice from the car into the van. We arrived at the camp and there were 18 shacks. So we took the 6 bags and gave each shack a third, and we gave the third shack the bag along with the rice. Easy math. All of the rice was gone. As we were leaving the pastor said there was another two families that lived around the hill and asked if we had anything left for them. We went to the back of the van to get some clothes and shoes and there, sitting right in front of everyone was another bag of rice. And yes everysingle person there can verify we gave away six, we bought six, we loaded six, and somehow we now had seven.
A couple at my pastors church was challenged during the sermon to boldly give their life to God. They woke up one morning and said “God what should we do today” they felt like they were supposed to go buy a bunch of groceries. So they did. While shopping they just happened to see some sheets at the grocery store, yes bed sheets at the grocery store, and through a set into the carriage. There was some weird soap they had never heard of before on sale, so they just grabbed three of them. And they bought a bunch of food. They got home and didn’t know what to do with it. They called pastor Buddy, and said, “well we did this cause God told us to, now what?” Buddy had no advice so they said, “well we met this lady at church, can we take it to her?” Buddy knew the lady, and knew she probably didn’t need it, but didn’t want to quench their spirit, so he said sure.
A few minutes later buddy gets a call from that lady. She told him this couple brought all this stuff over and she didn’t need it, but didn’t want to make them feel bad so she said thanks so much, but what should she do with it? Buddy didn’t know, so she said I met this couple last week at church, it was there first time there, and I think they might be struggling, can I take it to them. Buddy said, “yes but don’t offend them”
She had got their phone number so called and asked if she could come over for a second. She showed up and told the lady what happened and asked if it would be alright if she left it with them. The lady started to cry, (I am actually starting to cry as I type this), there was a mix up at her husbands work, and he hadn’t gotten paid in two weeks, he had just called from work and they still hadn’t fixed the problem and he was coming home with no money, hoping he had enough gas to get there. They had just finished the last of the food in the house and she didn’t know how they were going to eat tonight. Then they start unpacking everything. She pulls out the sheets and starts to cry again. Their youngest daughter had been sleeping on a mattress with no sheets, and sure enough they were the same size. A few bags later she starts to cry again. She is actually slumped on the floor sobbing, holding the bar of soap in her hand. Her son is highly allergic to soap and had very senstive skin. The only soap they had ever found that didn’t make his get a rash was too expensive to buy, and they just happened to buy three bars of it.
There are more, but those are pretty major ones. I like the last one the best. I seriously could tell stories like this for over an hour.
But not one person that I would tell you about ever advertises that they are healers, or miracle workers. Just humble people that expect God to intervene in our lives at times.
rev
August 18th, 2006 at 12:07 pm
Thanks Andrew for these words:
“Phil, I know that you are a godly man; and I hope that I am, too. I suspect that you are not ‘better’ than me, and I am not ‘better’ than you; but that in some areas your faith is greater than mine and in some areas my faith is great than yours - and that we can learn together. What matters to me is that for each one of us, our faith is growing. It’s not about “arriving” - Jesus was on the move, with nowhere to lay his head - but about following - including following Jesus into crazy areas if that is where he leads (”Jerusalem? That’d be suicide!”) because he knows better than I do. I know that you are following Jesus, and, at the end of the day, that is enough for me.”
August 18th, 2006 at 12:09 pm
thanks rev. I felt very moved by the last story as well. See these are the things that I feel are valid miracles - no hullabaloo - no song and dance -
It’s a shame you don;t have an internationaly renowned ministry for me to give money to rev or you would literally be rolling in it now!
I think it’s the hey look at these people type of response that seems to be the goal of most of the “miracle” claims we hear about - nothing that gives glory to God -and Andrew I do not think that claims of 54 people raised from the dead are about giving glory to God - it does appear to be look at this ministry - look at these people.
August 18th, 2006 at 12:58 pm
Thanks for sharing that Rev. These are the things that speak to hearts. When the show has moved on there is no falling away, because this was so very personal to them. it softened their hearts. between them and God only.
Totally unrelated, I’m speaking to my office colleague now, and he just quoted this scripture from the Koran to me “live in your life and live in your death, and shall you not die in your life and die in your death”
August 18th, 2006 at 1:45 pm
A big thanks Rev - great to hear about God acting in and through His people and like Greg said without all the fanfare. The authenticity and genuiness shows through.
August 18th, 2006 at 2:04 pm
REV - YOU HOSS YOU - wrestling a bull and all. I don’t doubt the leg being healed, but you being stronger than a bull…. well, you don’t have to blow it out of proportion.
If that would have happened in Africa it would not be true. But, you could be on the Professional Speaking Circuit with ME…
:)
GTE - He may not be Worls renown but I’m sure he would still let you donate the money.
August 18th, 2006 at 3:08 pm
“But not one person that I would tell you about ever advertises that they are healers, or miracle workers. Just humble people that expect God to intervene in our lives at times.”
Please let me add an ‘amen’ to that. The last sentence could/should be somehow included in the Creed that P&D are looking to put together.
Beautifully put.
August 18th, 2006 at 3:12 pm
not stronger than a bull. Portugese style bullfighting in a wild thing. There are eight guys, the first guy gets the bull to charge into him and he lets it hit him and grabs it around the neck with (if everything goes right, but it usually doesn’t) his legs wrapped around the bulls nose and his waist between the horns. The rest of the guys jump on his back and one guy grabs the tail. All eight of you subdue the bull.
http://www.arcofilms.com/minotaur/pega1.htm
http://www.arcofilms.com/minotaur/pega2.htm
http://www.arcofilms.com/minotaur/pega3.htm
rev
August 18th, 2006 at 3:17 pm
Still sounds like a lot of bull.
August 18th, 2006 at 3:18 pm
….well. someone else was going to say it if I didn’t:-)
August 18th, 2006 at 3:28 pm
yeah sometimes 550 kilos worth
rev