preaching on heaven?
How many sermons have your heard on the subject of heaven? How many conversations have you had with other Christians on the subject of heaven?
I know I have not heard many sermons nor had many discussions with other Christians about Heaven. Interestingly, this stands in stark contrast to the many times I have had conversations with non-Christians about heaven. One of the benefits (?) of being a minister is when you say that is what you do - often the discussions turn to the most weird and wonderful topics. Heaven is often spoken about it - infact I would go as far to say that many non-Christians think that the promise of heaven is the main reason why people become or are Christians. I have always been surprised when I realise this, as it would not be high on my list of reasons and that can be seen by the lack of times I preach or talk about it.
This article is an interesting reflection on this issue. Thanks for that tip off Alan. I like this conclusion..
“When will we begin to hear sermons on heaven? Well, we already do when we hear sermons that take the yearning core of biblical texts seriously. When preachers listen to the promise of the text that a new earth and a new heaven realised in our own lives exists on the horizon and is even now breaking into our existence then we have a sermon with heaven at its heart. When the celebrant knows that the feast he presides over is from above then we have a sacrament governed by heaven. So perhaps heaven is not so far from the church’s mind and practice as we might think. It is just that it has assumed its true form as a summons to reconciliation.”
What do you think?
August 22nd, 2006 at 11:56 am
Its interesting to see that the article is one of the most discussed in the forum-wonder why?(check out Ranier 16/8 - you’re not in Room 8 are you Phil?)
August 22nd, 2006 at 3:27 pm
This is a quote from http://www.jesuscreed.org/?p=1027 thread on heaven and hell by a person calling themselves a true evangelical believer.
Where ever there is discussion around heaven and hell (although the thread here is just about heaven, but I don’t think you can deal with either separately) someone invariably makes the claim that Jesus spoke more about hell than he did about heaven. Shirley Buxton makes the claim (althought she does soften it by saying she thinks Jesus spoke more about hell than about heaven)
They’re wrong…heaven is mentioned 4742 times in the gospels and hell is mentioned only 286 times, hades 86 times and fire 936 times.
The fact that Jesus talked at all about hell I guess says something, but it is not true to say that Jesus spoke more about hell than he did about heaven…although some Christians find this is a very popular statement to make!
There should be discussion about heaven much more than about hell
August 22nd, 2006 at 8:57 pm
Greg where on earth did you pull those figures from re Heaven and Hell?
I have a program called “E-Sword” that contains 12 different versions of the bible.
The Hebrew word “Sheol” is translated as “Hell” in the Old Testament a total of 31 times.
In the New Testament, the Greek words “Hades”, “Gehenna” and “Tartaroo” are all translated as the single english word “Hell”
Hades appears 11 times in the New Testament writings.
10 times it is translated as “Hell” and once it is translated as “Grave”
Tartaroo is used only once in the entire N.T writings whilst Gehenna is used 12 times.
So… that’s 10 + 12 + 1. That equals 23 Greg, not 286.
Where did you pull these insane figure from?
WIGGY
August 22nd, 2006 at 9:02 pm
23 entries as “Hell” in the New Testament that is…
I just searched for Heaven in the gospels.
It appears 130 times… not 4000 times
Greg aren’t you a minister or something? Shouldn’t you have these numbers at least to within +/- 5 or so?
WIGGY
August 22nd, 2006 at 10:25 pm
From this blog …
“Logos found the word “heaven” 4742 times in the gospels in 20 translations.”
But there is a sort of ‘disclaimer’ about how Logos counts the search results. There are some other links on the blog, to sites in regards to this topic.
August 23rd, 2006 at 12:04 am
wiggy…are you still around?
August 23rd, 2006 at 6:22 am
Yep Wiggy is here…
Oygle thanks for providing that link.
However for the life of me, I really can’t see how they can pull over 4000 entries for heaven in the gospels
…
The Greek word used for Heaven in the N.T is Ouranos (Strongs No 3772) and in the gospels it appears 130 times translated as Heaven by the KJV translators… Ouranos is also transalted as “Air”
Maybe someone can clear this discrepancy up? Greg perhaps?
WIGGY
August 23rd, 2006 at 10:10 am
I have to admit that I simply consulted google and got the link to the blog oygle pointed to and accepted his research
August 23rd, 2006 at 10:41 am
it would appear that the figures listed represent the number of times the words heaven and hell appear in 20 different versions of the bible - my bad…jumped in half thingummied…must go and wipe egg off my face now
August 23rd, 2006 at 11:09 am
UPDATE
Well, if I’m going to have any integrity at all I have to admit it and recitfy my comments when I am wrong! So I am wrong about the figures quoted above - not about the fact that Jesus did speak more about heaven than hell…that he certainly did. I relied upon figures from here http://jollyblogger.typepad.com/jollyblogger/2006/06/did_jesus_talk_.html unfortunaltey I didn’t read carefully enouigh - the figures refer to the number of times the words heaven, hell, hades and fire appear in 20 different versions of the bible.
So I have done a check by conducting a key word search on bible gateway and these are the figures from the NIV bible: Heaven is mentioned 137 times in the gospels, 269 times in the New Testament, and 606 times in the entire bible. Hell on the otherhand is mentioned only 14 times in the entire bible and they are all in the New Testament - hades as well was only found 5 times and that was also only in the New Testament.
I apologise for not researching things properly in the first place and relying upon a secondary source for my facts.
August 23rd, 2006 at 1:42 pm
anyone who preaches on Heaven has his head in the clouds!
August 23rd, 2006 at 2:01 pm
Especially if they harp on about it.
August 23rd, 2006 at 2:07 pm
oh and wiggy - I’m not an ordained minister - I am a lay leader of our cafe church community - but you are right I should have it down to a margin of error of 5 either way - thanks for pointing it out for me…:)
August 23rd, 2006 at 7:28 pm
Greg - cheers for clearing that up mate - much appreciated.
Now, if I can just get the corporate CCC style career ministers to do the same with tithing…
WIGGY
August 23rd, 2006 at 7:58 pm
It would be interesting wouldn’t it
August 25th, 2006 at 4:20 pm
Hey Wiggy!
Can you advise us the heirarchial structure of CCC. Who is Phil’s right-hand man? Is it Mark Kelsey? who are his chosen few? Phil’s apostle’s if you will.
In my day it was a bunch of kiwi’s he brought with him, Greg French, Simon McIntyre, some other old guy whom all admiited they were drop-out hippies back in 1970’s NZ.
Who does he favour in his employ? Does he still import New Zealander staff in preference to Aussies?
August 25th, 2006 at 4:58 pm
Reve… Yep Pringle def has his “few chosen” as well as his “many called” but that’s where the similarities with Jesus Christ end I’m afraid.
To my knowledge this is the pecking order - Pope Pringle, Simon McIntyre, Mark Kelsey and Greg French. These girls are the top brass if you will and have the most say etc.
Underneath that you’ve got ass-munchers like Jeff Crabtree, Pat Mesiti, Pat Ancliff, Jake Betlem. I guess you’d call these cats 2nd tier brass-holes…
Then you’d have 3rd tier wanks like current music director Ryan Smith, General manager Paul Humble and whoever is heading up CCTV these days.
The top brass have been there pretty much since day 1 and wouldn’t leave in a hurry, especially since they’re unqualified as anything else and are payed a very healthy paypacket.
2nd tier brass-holes have been there for ages too and again, don’t really have any other career options so they’ll stay out of loyalty and because of the pay.
3rd tier wanks are fairly disposable and come and go roughly about 5-10 year cycles…
Anyone under a 3rd tier wank doesn’t really rate. This includes the grounds staff, admin staff, and / or anyone else employed by CCC. These cats are paid fairly minimum wage and can be fired on a Pringle / Top brass whim…
WIGGY
August 25th, 2006 at 5:10 pm
Btw, when a pastor is “fired” at CCC what generally happens is that they are “told” to go church planting. So in other words if their department is not performing (ie, numbers or revenue is not increasing) then they are moved on post haste.
However, some pastors obviously choose to do that because they want to run their own gig and call their own shots…
Also Reve you are right about kiwi’s… Golden boy Youth Minister until recently Jurgen Matthesius was a kiwi who was poached by Pope Pringle… check out http://www.c3sandiego.com/
August 25th, 2006 at 8:48 pm
Wiggy, any ideas as to why one of the 3 links on the san diego site,is to “Bulldog Investigations” an “elite international investigative firm”,guess I’m not surprised to seethe other one to an investment company, but should we all be very afraid and leave dan and phil to face the music!
August 26th, 2006 at 8:57 am
Ha Ha Ha!
I lik this : -
“In 2004 Jurgen and Leanne felt the call to plant their own church and began to pray about which City this would be. San Diego was presented to their consideration by Pastor Phil Pringle the founder of CCC. Where upon praying it soon became very evident that San Diego was the City God had indeed prepared for them”
It was presented to them for their “consideration” was it? Yep, i’m sure that’s how it went. Isn’t it strange how God’s will amazingly aligns with Phil’s?
I know a previous Youth Minister Steve Bullen was dispatched to plant a church in the US as well.
So is there a system? Like if you’re the Senior Ministers Son you get to be the Leader of the Band & if you’re a Youth Minister you get a US church plant deal with full support?
September 15th, 2006 at 3:23 pm
I can’t believe what I am reading - esspecially considering what I think this blog is SUPPOSED to be about - but I have to say something to all the RIDICULOUS and obviously IGNORANT things being said about the leaders of CCC. I’m no where on Ps. Phil’s rader but I know Jeff, Ryan, Jurgen, Simon quite well and I think it’s AMAZINGLY sad that people who clearly don’t know them or anything about CCC would offer such misinformation and even worse disrespect the sacrifice and work made by men who have given so much to the benefit of so many. Ps. Phil and the others started with nothing and have built the church into a worldwide movement where thousands have found God and purpose and promise. Don’t get me wrong -he’s not God but He has given everything to be used by Him and as a result is seeing so many blessed. I don’t get the impression that anyone commenting above cares for the truth but I can explain the whole sending out thing quite easily - God meant for us to be fruitful and mutliply - it’s called DISCIPLESHIP. What’s the point of having all these amazing leaders in one church - to grow we have to stretch and be challenged - C3 is a releasing church. Jesus developed the disciples to change the world and it’s still happening today. You can’t argue with the fruit of what’s been produced from any of these men’s lives - they love people, they love God and they love the church! Steve Bullen is in the process of launching a church outside Atlanta and is doing amazing. It’s about relationship and building on what God is doing around you. As a leader - you look out for people who God is calling to a purpose. You give them everything you’ve got and then equip them the best way you can - financially, spiritually and emotionally. Then they go and do the same - God is totally in it! He’s all about multiplication. The church is not perfect because it consists of people. I am saddened when I think of what is mentioned here because I think what hope do we have to win the world when we are fighting, abusing and defaming each other. I know this - God sees it all and will hold us all accoutable for our actions. The things said here are phenomenally offensive to some pretty amazing men of God. However, there lives will continue to be blessed and reflect the goodness of their hearts - I hope that who ever reads this will examine themselves before God and get some revelation about the truth.
September 15th, 2006 at 3:55 pm
We have, Nita, we have.
Do you think it gives people pleasure to say the things you’ve read? Do you think these things have been said because they are easy?
Many people here weep for what they see happening….many people here weepe for what they don’t see happening instead….many people here weep for their own histories and their own stories and hurts and failures and wounds at the hands of these people.
If only you were right.
September 15th, 2006 at 4:37 pm
Nita - I will make a few comments to your post
“…but I have to say something to all the RIDICULOUS and obviously IGNORANT things being said about the leaders of CCC…”
I am an ex-staff member and was involved in the movement for approx 10 years so NO, I’m hardly ignorant.
“…I think it’s AMAZINGLY sad that people who clearly don’t know them or anything about CCC would offer such misinformation and even worse disrespect the sacrifice and work made by men who have given so much to the benefit of so many…”
Yes I know all the names you dropped Nita and no, again I have not offered “mis-information”. As for the phrase “given so much for the benefit of so many” well that is entirely a matter of opinion.
I have a question for you.
Why is it that CCC has an estimated annual income of approx $34 million and yet refuses to reveal their financials?
Why is it that whenever they are questioned about this issue they flat out refuse to reveal anything about where the money is going to?
If Phil Pringle has nothing to hide, why can’t he come clean?
Have you ever contemplated that maybe he’s the one benefitting from all of his own sacrifice? And if that is the case, is that scripturally sound conduct becoming of a minister of the gospel?
“…I don’t get the impression that anyone commenting above cares for the truth…”
Nita unfortunately Phil Pringle and the leadership team are the one’s who have no care for the truth. Why is that they are promoting a “tithe” doctrine that just does not stand up biblically? Despite what is taught @ CCC God is not an anal-retentive accountant ready to pound his people’s lives if they fail to tithe their income. Tithing was a part of the Mosaic law and you cannot seperate it from the rest of the Law. As Paul says in Galatians 5.3-4 “…For I testify again to every man that is circumcised (or who practices tithing or any other Law), that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace…”
Why is it that when they are challenged on this issue they use tactics like character asassination and stonewalling to get themselves out of it? Why will they not engage in honest biblical debate on this issue? I’ll tell you why, they have no care for the truth.
“…I know this - God sees it all and will hold us all accoutable for our actions. The things said here are phenomenally offensive to some pretty amazing men of God…”
You are correct Nita, God does see it all and I feel very scared for Phil Pringle when he does come face to face with Christ at Judgement day.
And yes, the things said here are offensive to (in your words) “amazing men of God”
I guess just like the Pharisees, Pringle and co are esteemed as being “amazing men of God” but to anyone with spiritual insight and “eyes to see” they are nothing more than “whitewashed walls” and a “brood of vipers”
Matthew 24 -
For they bind heavy and hard to bear burdens, and lay them on the shoulders of men (such as tithing) but they do not desire to move them with their finger. (I personally know of a woman who was homeless while attending CCC and nothing was done about it Nita. Leadership knew but nothing was done… But I guess that’s ok hey?) And they do all their works to be seen by men (like building big fancy buildings and having a “month of prayer and fasting”). And they make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their robes. And they love the first couch in the suppers, and the first seats in the synagogues (Nita, try sitting down the front next time you’re at CCC), and the greetings in the markets, and to be called by men, Rabbi, Rabbi (Pastor Phil, Pastor Simon) But do not you be called Rabbi, for One is your Leader, the Christ, and you are all brothers.
WIGGY
September 15th, 2006 at 4:39 pm
Thanks Nita for the tip-off to one of the worst false teachers around, Mark Smallcombe (anybody know him?…Mark sounds like an Aussie with an American twang.)
Cashing In On Opportunity - Jesus On Wealth Part 1.
Pastor Mark Smallcombe
Christian City Church, San Francisco
June 25, 2006.
http://c3renew.com/podcast/2006-06-25%20Jesus%20on%20Money%20Part%201%20(Mark%20Smallcombe).mp3
“Please be seated. Thank you so much. Wow.
I want today as I preach God’s Word, a very very interesting topic, I know this is going to make a deep impact into your life..
I want you to be shouting out some agreement…actually our services are going live in the form of a podcast..so you can download this, anybody can download it all over the world…they can hear this message that God is speaking to this church in this city today.
That’s pretty good news, Amen? (congregation:’yeah’)
And I just want to thank our technical team who’ve been able to set this up, it’s amazing.
So give me an ‘Amen’ (’yeah’). Let’s give the Lord a handclap of praise, come on. (applause). Let’s stir the fire of God up in this place, in the name of Jesus.
Open your bibles with me to Deuteronomy Chapter 8, if you will. Deuteronomy Chapter 8. We’re gonna read from verse 7. Deuteronomy. It’s about the 4th or 5th book into the Old Testament. Deuteronomy 8. Starting from verse 7.
“For the Lord your God is bringing you into a good land.”
Do I say he’s bringing you into a bad place? You know he’s bringing you into a good land. Everyone say ‘a good land’ (’a good land’).
‘Flowing with springs of pools of water’ …or ‘flowing with streams and pools of water with springs that gush forth in the valleys and the hills. It is a land of wheat and barley of grapevines, fig trees, pomegranates, olives and honey.’
Now that is a muesli selection if ever I heard it.
‘It is a land where food is plentiful and nothing is lacking.
It is a land where iron is as common as stone and copper is abundant in the hills.
When you have eaten your fill, praise the Lord your God for the good land He has given you.’
Who is glad that God has provided an inheritance for them?
But, everyone say ‘but’ (’but’) ‘but this is the time to be careful.
When you are experiencing the goodness of God, be careful, beware that in your plenty, you do not forget the Lord your God, and disobey his commands, regulations and laws.
For when you have become full and prosperous,’ Amen, there is a promise, ‘when you have become full and prosperous and have built fine homes to live in, and when your flocks and herds have become very large, and your silve and gold have multiplied’….anyone here have stocks in silver or gold …anybody have any……I believe silver is the thing to invest in …. just if you’re in the trading business, silver is where it’s going to be at.. I believe… and they’re putting out a website very soon where you can just trade in silver through the website ..and you don’t even have to go and buy silver…you just have to have…you know..it’s all paper now …they hold those reserves for you now..it’s going to be very good..
Allright..and everything else….’this is the time to be careful. Do not become proud at this time and forget the Lord your God who rescued you from the slavery in the land of Egypt.
Do not forget that He led you through the great terrifying wilderness, poisonous snakes and scorpions, where it was hot and dry.
Instead he gave you water from the rock. He fed you with manna from the wilderness. He did all this to humble you and test you for your own good.’
So if you’re going through it. If you feel like you’re in that hot and dry place, understand that it’s not because you necessarily done something bad or earned God’s displeasure, but he is testing you and preparing you to be able to handle prosperity and wealth..and that you do not forget Him.
Can somebody say ‘Amen’? (murmur)
‘He did this,’ verse 17, ‘he did this’ or ‘he did it so that you would never think it was your own strength and energy that made you wealthy.
Always remember that it is the Lord your God, I want to go to the first slide now, always remember that it is the Lord your God who gives you power to become rich, or power to become wealthy.
And he does it to fulfil a covenant he made with your ancestors. Somebody say ‘praise the Lord’ (’praise the Lord’)
Today I will start a series, that I believe will deeply impact each of our lives, and it is something that must be taught from the pulpit, because finance and money and blessing and laying up a future, not only for our own lives but for the generations to come, is so, so important in God’s eyes.
The fact is, this book, the bible, was mostly written, mostly by the wealthiest men and people of their time.
It was authored, it was actually inspired by the Holy Spirit, but it was actually penned and written down by people like Moses, who if you took his salary, and compared it to today’s standard, he would be getting about 1.5 million dollars a week.
It was written by people like Abraham, wealthy in his time.
People like Job. The bible says there was no-one more wealth…..people like King David, people like Solomon, whose abundance astounded all the kings and queens in the world at that time.
Even Paul, the apostle Paul, coming from an affluent family, he wasn’t short of a dollar or two either.
He was in the hospitality industry, ha ha. He would make tents, and tents were the hotels of that day.
And of course he wanted to seek first the Kingdom of God………..
….The idea is not that I’m preaching about prosperity or trying to achieve something done by our own strength.
No, I’m telling you that God’s will is for us to rise and believe and begin to operate in a realm that we’ve never operated in before.
You see, this series is going to speak to your life ..because I’m not preaching about getting money from you…I’m going to teach you how to get money to you.
Everyone say…’to me’ (to me’) and through me (’through me’)
So I believe the Holy Spirit wants to speak His ideas ..and as I preach and minister over these coming weeks …on the topic of ‘Jesus On Wealth’ …Jesus On Wealth, I believe He will give you His ideas.”
(to be continued)
September 15th, 2006 at 4:57 pm
“Um…how to begin this review of the Axis Cafe?
I admit this place has good coffee and nobody-in-a-rush ambiance. The people working at the counter are a little stiff, but their efficiency is appreciated. The couches and relaxed atmosphere makes it a place you’ll find hipstering CCAC students lounging about. Local design professionals of Showplace Square converge here to meet their clients over a cappuccino. Peeps from Potrero Hill wander down for java refueling when 18th Street gets too familiar.
However, be forewarned…This place is a church.
I kid you not. People that work there are members of the Christian City Church. Services are held there on Sundays (that’s why they are closed on Sundays). I suspiciously surmise they use the hip environs of the coffee shop to recruit young, disillusioned people (read: art students) into their congregation. But that’s me playing devil’s advocate.
Either way, I guess God knows good coffee…
http://www.cccsanfrancisco.com
——————-
“Just to let you know that it is cool and all but it funds a SUPER CONSERVATIVE church (read makes Pat Robertson look like Ru Paul).
I think if 1/2 of the customers knew where there $$ was going they would not be there.
They do a lot of recruiting here, and if you really check them out they are pretty creepy. I am all for religious freedom — but I am not for bait and switch.
http://www.c3sf.com/
from http://www.c3kelowna.ca
“…ps mark smallcombe from Christian City Church San Francisco… they have also started the axis cafe which may end up being a new model for financing and supporting new church plants..”
From http://www.yelp.com/biz/V9ijoF8TYBvJleFJ5ZuxoQ
[memo to church planters from Lance - the people you’re trying to reach for Jesus aren’t as stupid as you]
September 15th, 2006 at 5:44 pm
“…Even Paul, the apostle Paul, coming from an affluent family, he wasn’t short of a dollar or two either. He was in the hospitality industry, ha ha. He would make tents, and tents were the hotels of that day…”
This is a line Mark Smallcombe stole from Phil Pringle and historically it is complete and utter bullshit.
Any person reasonably familiar with Roman architechture will tell you they were a very ingenious bunch.
Central heating? Yes, Roman builders did actually incorporate that into their structures.
It is also believed that they invented concrete and as well as that they used marble, terracotta, stone and brick within their structures.
They were the first to build roads on the foundation basis. They were paved and they had ditches on either side so water could run off. There are roads still standing which were built by the Romans…
Tents were not the hotels of the day and Paul was not a property developer. Mark Smallcombe, adjust the setting of your brain from “DeepFreeze” to “Defrost” and stop parroting Phil Pringle’s heresy.
WIGGY
September 15th, 2006 at 6:30 pm
Reading thru post number 24, it just becomes so obvious that Mark isn’t using any of his own original thoughts but is simply a Phil Pringle Karoke machine… Everything he’s said is just pretty much taken verbatim from Pringle and the CCC movement… How very sad to live your life in such a way.
I love how these guys use an Old Testament event like the Israelites Exodus… They tell you that yes: leaving Egypt is symbolic of us coming out of the world. The wildnerness, that’s symbolic of God testing us… The battles Joshua fought in Canaan: more symbolism relating to us “overcoming” things in our lives…
However the riches and anything to do with money, well… that’s just gotta be literal, ain’t no symbolism there!
Like Tom Cruise in Jerry MGuire CCC ministers are screaming “Show me the money” - and it’s all at your expense…
WIGGY
September 17th, 2006 at 4:59 am
Wow…clearly, you guys have a lot of time on your hands. This will be my last comment and you guys can have the last word. However - it’s amusing and again very sad how you are obviously committed to tearing people down with little truth beyond what you can google online or get from gossip. “Wiggy” mentioned that he worked at Oxford Falls for 10 years but his lack of knowledge on the organization and church planting questions his credibility. His comment about sitting at the front at CCC is hilarous and show a lack of understand of Godly order and lines of authority. We honor the position that God gives to those people ‘at the front’ and don’t make idiots of ourselves trying to assume a place we haven’t yet be released into. Again, if that is something hard to grasp - try to imagine yourself demanding a seat at the state dinner of your government.
We judge a tree by it’s fruit - heathly trees, healthy fruit. I have lived my life with Ps. Mark Smallcombe for the past 5 years. I wasn’t really doing anything to serve God prior to meeting Mark and Gail. I loved God and wanted to do something significant and serve a vision bigger than my own. I started just passionate to see people come to Christ and build God’s Kingdom. I have seen that happen beyond my wildest dreams. God cares about SOULS - nothing is more important. All of the men you mentioned have shown the fruit of souls come into relationship with God as a result of their efforts. AND they are raising up leaders to do the same. I would venture to say that those who spend so much time looking to take down ‘the tall poppy’ have little to show from their own lives much less winning people around them. The message that ‘Lance’ inserted - again lots of time spent on that one - was about equipping people to thing bigger - to prosper financial and in every area of life. I believe God doesn’t care if you have money - He doesn’t want money to have you. As the body of Christ, we have a responsibilty to prosper - not just financial - to be a help to those around us in need. If you’re just surviving then you not going to be in a position for others.
‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
God is good! I hope we can just love on each other and pursue God - why is that so hard?
September 17th, 2006 at 12:20 pm
“His comment about sitting at the front at CCC is hilarous and show a lack of understand of Godly order and lines of authority. We honor the position that God gives to those people ‘at the front’ and don’t make idiots of ourselves trying to assume a place we haven’t yet be released into.”
Does CCC teach this bullshit?
September 17th, 2006 at 1:12 pm
Nita,
Are you arguing that God has a order that should determine where people sit in Church?
If there is such an order surely Jesus would be advocating for the prostitutes, the tax collectors, the lepers etc to sit up the front. He was very strong on the last shall be first - a sense of upside down kingdom.
I don’t understand where you get this understanding of the Godly order.
I hope you are able to stick around and help us understand what you mean.