Russell Kelly rebuts Allan Meyer … again!
At Signposts we have been discussing and calling to account the theology on Tithing by a number of Australia’s wealthy Mega Church Pastors.
The great tithing debate that first appeared on Phil Bakers Blog has cascaded like a bar room brawl to Signposts and then across various sites on the Internet.
Dr. Russell Kelly has now reviewed the hermeneutics used by Allan Meyer on Phil Bakers blog and leaves no doubt that his teaching on tithing is grossly in error.
You too can be like a Berean in Acts 17:11 - thanks to D. Smith in QLD and check it all out here:
“Allan Meyer of Careforce Church has published a series of studies on Phil Baker’s blog. Allan Meyer also preached on tithing at the national Christian Outreach Centre ‘Infusion’ Conference to COC pastors gathered from around Australia. Russell Kelly has reviewed Allan Meyer’s preaching at that conference and Allan Meyer’s hermeneutics (on Phil bakers Blog)”.
Source: A critique of Allan Meyers teaching at Phil Bakers Blog: http://members.optusnet.com.au/tithingstudy/TheTithingHermeneuticsOfAllanMeyer.htm
Other teachings including Brian Houston can be found here: http://members.optusnet.com.au/tithingstudy/
September 2nd, 2006 at 1:41 pm
I love this bit from Russell Kelly as he obliterates Brian Houston’s false teaching on tithing.
http://members.optusnet.com.au/tithingstudy/KellyReviewsHouston.htm
“I encourage the reader to READ Malachi. It is four short chapters. A shock awaits you.
The real culprit in Malachi, like in many churches today, is the ministers, the priests –not the people. (1) God is angry at the priests: 1:6 O priests, that despise my name.” 2:1 “O ye priests, this commandment is for you.” (2) The pronoun “you” found in 3:8-10 begins in 1:6 with the priests and does not change away from them. (3) 1:6 – the priests dishonor God and do not fear Him. (4) 1:7, 8 – the priests bring less-than-perfect sacrifices. (5) 1:10 - God wants the priests to close the doors to worship if they will not reform. (6) 1:12 – By their actions the priests have profaned God’s name. (7) 1:13, 14 IMPORTANT. They already HAD what they needed to worship correctly from the people, but they (not the people) ROBBED GOD – and they (the priests) were CURSED for their robbery. (8) 2:2 – God threatens to CURSE the ministers (not the people) three more times! (9) 2:3 – God is so angry with the Old Covenant ministers that he promised to throw DUNG into their faces and have them expelled.”
September 2nd, 2006 at 3:53 pm
I like this one Lance:
This is what I meant when I said that the contemporary church needs to change … new “revelations” or “teachings” such as “You Need More Money” can be dangerous - and should have a ‘handle with care’ flag on them so they are diligently checked by solid orthodox theologians before they are unleashing them on a scriptually naieve audience waiting for their ears to be scratched.
People, put your emotions on hold , and diligently test the facts and what you are being taught by your leaders and what you have been fed - at your expense.
How can you trust leaders with eternal spiritual matters when they cannot be trusted to teach you properly on temporal and material matters such as money?
———————————————-
Quotes of the Day
“Don’t put me off when I ask questions. If you do, you will find that I stop asking and seek my information elsewhere”
“Don’t ever think it is beneath your dignity to apologise to me. An honest apology makes me surprisingly warm toward you”.
From 21 Messages For Your Child
Catholic ‘Reflections’ Newsletter
September 2nd, 2006 at 4:05 pm
From 21 Messages FROM Your Child
Catholic ‘Reflections’ Newsletter
September 2nd, 2006 at 7:31 pm
“People, put your emotions on hold ” - Lionfish you hit the nail on the head here. People so need to put aside their emotions. Questioning what is taught from the front is NOT akin to saying “the pastor isn’t a nice person”, nor is it being “disloyal” to “the house” (although that is a whole other house of cards that will fall later as their eyes are open.)
The subtle emotional manipulation is so strong in these places that people are too scared to even consider that anything could be wrong. I have had people ask me if I still attend H$ & the minute I say no, they pale visibly & excuse themselves ASAP. I think it is all they can do to not thrust their fingers in their ears & hum “jingle bells” in case I say anything “negative”.
September 2nd, 2006 at 8:21 pm
“I have had people ask me if I still attend H$ & the minute I say no, they pale visibly & excuse themselves ASAP.”
What…you’re still meant to attend Hill$ong while living in another country?
September 3rd, 2006 at 12:01 am
I have been making waves at my church. I questioned the “tithe” principle and apparently last weekend they ran a DVD about the tithe as a NT principle. Pity I wasn’t there. But that being said it was allegedly a Baptist minister speaking on the DVD. He used 2 Cor 9 backed up by Numbers 18. So was very interested to read Russell Kelly’s piece. Has anybody heard seen such DVD. I am going to ask for a copy of it tomorrow.
Meanwhile I typed baptist minister tithe into google and came up with this beauty.
http://lighthouse-baptist.net/Genesis-Tithing.shtml
I particularly liked
Summary. Either you give it to God willingly or He will beat it out of you with interest on what you owe.
Interestingly when you try to copy and paste from this site it comes up with a copyright dialogue box that says you must refer to the administrator of the site if you wish to copy from it.
September 3rd, 2006 at 8:51 am
Thanks for posting that Grace.
Quite an interesting take on tithing by the Baptist minister
“Either you give it to God willingly or He will beat it out of you with interest on what you owe…”
Actually it’s very similar to the the eternal torment doctrine. Either you surrender your life to God now or fry for all time… Not much a choice really is it?
WIGGY
September 3rd, 2006 at 9:09 am
I like this statement from the site too -
“…Jesus Said Every Person Should Tithe; Even Lost People…”
To justify that grossly inaccurate statement he pulls out Matthew 23.23 and Luke 11.42
But… The Pharisees were not tithing money, just herbs. Money was never a titheable commodity in Israel and God never required it but somehow BH, PP and every other wolf in sheeps clothing ignore this fact.
I love this too -
“…God Says To Bring it to the Storehouse…”
And of course he pulls out Old Testament scripture to suggest that the Local church is in fact the “storehouse”
Well… No it’s not.
You and I are now living temples and we are the “house of God”. It seems this concept is totally lost on tithe teachers and modern day pastors of “churchianity”
“…Are you not aware that you are a temple of God and the spirit of God is making its home in you?” 1 Cor 3.16
“The God who made the world and all things in it, this One being Lord of Heaven and of earth, does not dwell in handmade temples” Acts 17.24
And get this - If you have a look at their “What we believe” page you will read that they are “Independant from denominationalism” and yet on the very same page they say they are “Baptist, affirming historic baptist distinctives” Man, how contradictorary can you get?
WIGGY
September 3rd, 2006 at 9:23 am
interesting “Baptist, affirming historic baptist distinctives” …
Historically the Baptists did not introduce Tithing into their statement of faith until 1963 … even though there was some debate and ‘tithe taxes’ earlier … tithes were oonce paid in tobacco…
http://home.earthlink.net/~russkellyphd/id3.html
September 3rd, 2006 at 10:15 am
I have just emailed Allan Meyer and asked him to join us in this discussion.
If Allan does join us, I would ask that every one be respectful.
September 4th, 2006 at 3:27 am
“If Allan does join us, I would ask that every one be respectful.”
So…….like…….don’t mention the car?
September 4th, 2006 at 3:59 am
“The privilege and responsibility of bringing tithes and offerings to the Lord.
Tithing is a divine principle of sound financial stewardship.
It is mentioned prior to the law
Genesis 14:20 (NLT)
20And blessed be God Most High, who has helped you conquer your enemies. Then Abram gave Melchizedek a tenth of all the goods he had recovered.
Genesis 28:22 (NLT)
22This memorial pillar will become a place for worshiping God, and I will give God a tenth of everything he gives me.
It is mentioned in the law
Leviticus 27:30 (NLT)
30A tenth of the produce of the land, whether grain or fruit, belongs to the LORD and must be set apart to him as holy.
It is mentioned in the new covenant (after the law)
Matthew 23:23 (NLT)
23How terrible it will be for you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest part of your income, but you ignore the important things of the law—justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but you should not leave undone the more important things.
Hebrews 7:15 through Hebrews 7:17 (NLT)
15The change in God’s law is even more evident from the fact that a different priest, who is like Melchizedek, has now come. 16He became a priest, not by meeting the old requirement of belonging to the tribe of Levi, but by the power of a life that cannot be destroyed. 17 And the psalmist pointed this out when he said of Christ,
“You are a priest forever in the line of Melchizedek.”
Tithing is God’s ordained strategy to fund ministry in the local church and it’s a key to releasing His blessing in your life.”
From http://www.swancitychurch.org.au/scc/faith.htm#eleven
I’m new at this biblical tithing teaching…so…maybe someone can help me out here.
If I plunder ….let’s say…Revenue….to which priest do I give a 10th of the seized goods..as I’m currently not attending a church……
And on the grain and fruit thing…..does that mean I have to buy 10 bananas at Woolies in order to give the priest one or can I cut one banana into 9/10ths 1/10th……………and do I buy 10 boxes of Weetbix….or can I just buy those little multi-pack cereal boxes…where you get Coco Pops…Rice Bubbles …Weeties etc…all in one…and then divvy it up?
September 4th, 2006 at 8:42 am
Lance,
It just proves how amateurish, how ignorant and how arrogant the Contemporary Church and its LeaderTeachers are with regard to both understanding and teaching correct Christian doctrine.
It appears that this “theology” has been conveniently handed down like ‘tribal law’ from one teacher to the next - without anyone thinking it through.
Its like going to a ‘quack’ when you have cancer, rather that a qualified specialist.
I guess, like Jesus said (for most of them( “Father, forgive them, they know not waht they do”.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:47 am
I didn’t think this subject was going to go away, and neither should it. Having indulged Allan with this on the Phil Baker site, I was disappointed (but not surprised) at the hermeneutical abuse displayed by the leader of this large church. Being the recipient of the “Deal with 1 Cor 9 honestly or get out of the kitchen” comment, made me realise that we were dealing with someone who would resort to attempted bullying when challenged.
The bottom line is, there is no debate. If tithing is taught as a command it is false teaching.
Unfortunately, for many mega churches kingdom building = large earthly empires = need for vast income streams = extraction from the masses
September 4th, 2006 at 10:04 am
I am recommencing my studies next year and intend offering myself for Anglican ordiantion at some time in te next few years - could you hang on just a bit Lnace and should I be accepted by our diocese I will send you my bank acount details for depositing you pillaging.
Much love, warmth and blessing
Your friend and priest
Melchizagreg
September 4th, 2006 at 10:45 am
While there is a great deal of debate about tithing which is right and proper ’cause I think much of todays teaching is legalistic and fear inducing - “if I don’t then I will never recieve God’s bleassing” baloney. What do we do with our money?
I would like to support the pastor of my chosen church to get a fair wage and for the church to offer faith, hope and charity given in love to my local community.
However as being part of the rich and indeed very blessed developed world I feel conscience driven to support the very real basic life needs of clean water, shelter, food and sustainable employment for my brothers and sisters in less fortunate parts of the world. Whether I do this through Christian organisation or not I believe God will work. I must be true to in my motives.
All this does not mean to say any of you reading this must act in the same way. God acts in each of us according to His good purpose. It’s just that I am fed up with listening to my own whinging. Its time I acted as the Spirit is prompting me and for me to put my money where my mouth is.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:26 am
BTW does http://www.ecfa.org/ have an equivalent in Australia?
September 4th, 2006 at 3:11 pm
I’m torn.
One the one hand, we all know tithing is a load of crap. Anyone with a brief understanding of the law of grace would small a bloody big rat as soon as tithing was wheeled out, even if the nuances and angles of the whole thing wasn’t something they grasped straight away.
Tithing is almost always taught in conjunction with ‘wealth doctrine’ or ‘prosperity gospel’. What’s the saying….”you can’t cheat an honest man”…? If anyone knowingly gets into this, they’re greedy and deserve to be fleeced. If they unknowingly get into it, well, my answer is tempted to include fools and their money.
But on the other hand….I bloody hate abusers, rip-off merchants and con-men. So I’m torn….who’s the bigger wanker in all this? Tithe-teaching millionaires or their stupid, ignorant, brain-dead donors?
September 4th, 2006 at 4:39 pm
Melchizagreg hahahahahaha
September 5th, 2006 at 9:40 am
Thankyou for your support Jamesh - you are obviously a person of great intelligence and a true connoisseur of comedy gold. That was top shelf material folks and none fo you showed your appreciationexcept for Jamesh…shame on you all. Truly a prophet get’s no respect, etc
September 5th, 2006 at 5:58 pm
No sign of modern day Apostle Dr Allan Meyer as yet…
LionFish any sign your end?
WIGGY
September 5th, 2006 at 6:49 pm
Wiggy, let’s just wait and have a little more faith in both his conviction, his character and his ability to defend the teaching in which he strongly believes.
I am sure that he will honour his responsibility as a teacher to dispense the Truth (as he sees it).
September 5th, 2006 at 7:21 pm
Allan Meyer is at a WA conference…indoctrinating Baptist and Church of Christ pastors who’ve sold out to the Hill$ong/money-IS-is-the-gospel theology.
You might need to give him a few days until indoctrination at the 2gether conference is complete.
September 5th, 2006 at 8:36 pm
LionFish - unfortunately I have next to no faith in ministers who teach deception and half truth…
If he does rear his “Apostolic” melon I’ll be very suprised. On the other hand if he does show up, how long will he stick around? Will it be similar to Phil Baker’s blog ala - “deal with 1 Cor 9 or get out of the kitchen”?
I suspect so…
Has he even responded to Russell Kelly’s rebuttal?
I wish I had your good faith in these ministers LF but experience has shown me that if they can’t win an arguement they’ll just point blank ignore it and hope it all goes away.
WIGGY
September 5th, 2006 at 9:29 pm
are there any other blogs around (baptist ones maybe) where we could (politely of course) enter into some sound discussion and education for their own good re Dr Meyer ? some respectful blogcrashing?
September 6th, 2006 at 12:10 am
Wiggy - I will give it a week.
In my opinion Allan Meyer, unless he can defend his tithing teaching, can no longer be held up as a tithing expert.
September 7th, 2006 at 5:38 pm
From a historical perspective, this was not (yet) the new covenant, nor was it after the law, for the simple reason, that, this was “pre-Calvary”.
‘Post Calvary’, the Mosiac Law is now, ‘complete/fullfilled’ , and the NT shows several verses where the decalogue is still in effect (applies).
Tithing was always food, as Russell goes to great detail to explain. It was included as part of the Mosiac law, which is now ‘complete’, we are not under law, but under grace.
The “law of sin and death has been nailed to the cross”.
Some good articles ……..
http://www.nomoretithing.org/nmt_links.htm
September 7th, 2006 at 7:01 pm
“Lance Says”
For the record….that wasn’t a quote of me but a quote of me quoting the tithe teaching of $wan City Church.
September 7th, 2006 at 8:21 pm
My apologies Lance.
Yes, where a church teaches tithing, then the congregation should bring along produce (LOL). Maybe that is why a certain large church has those buckets with holes in the bottom, they must have a preference for bananas over things like peas, small nuts and other grains, which would fall through I guess.
From Tithing is Unscriptural Under the New Covenant , and other tithing studies, two things stood out for me recently …
1. The ’storehouse’ in Malachi 3:10 was simply a place to store grain [Hebrew: ‘garner’– a granary for grain].
2. The ‘open up the windows of heaven’ may simply mean ‘rain’, because the ‘meat’ is bread actually, and they needed rain for their crops.
In the above link, I like one of the conclusions:
* ONLY LANDOWNERS TITHED
* ONLY PRODUCTS OF THE LAND WERE TITHED
* ONLY LEVITES COULD RECEIVE THE TITHES
* TITHING WAS A LAW OF MOSES
* CHRISTIANS ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES!
and other tithing studies have shown that one had to actually ‘qualify’ to tithe (following on from the above), and Jesus would not have actually ‘qualified’, because he was a carpenter. Now, we know that Jesus kept the Law, absolutely, therefore, He would never had tithed, otherwise, He would have broken the Law.
He did not break the Law.
September 7th, 2006 at 10:28 pm
If you read this site - you may understand why these people are afraid to defend their teaching from scripture:
http://www.thechristianexpositor.org/page8.html