Hat-Trick!!! - Russell Kelly now rebuts Paul de Jong
Dr. Russell Kelly has already obliterated Allan Meyer’s teaching on tithing…
As well as Brian Houston’s teaching on tithing …
Now over at the http://www.tithingdebate.com/ , Russell Kelly has deconstructed another Riverview Church Board Member and Hillsong planted CLC Senior Pastor (Paul de Jong) teaching on tithing:
Source: http://www.tithingdebate.com/DeJongRebuttal.html
Mark Vranchovich who is responsible for hosting the tithingdebate.com, writes:
Paul de Jong is held up as a defender of Christian Tithing doctrine in Australia and New Zealand. But when his confident assertions on the subject were examined by tithing expert Dr. Russell Kelly they failed to stand up Biblically. And confronted with this in-depth review of his teaching Paul de Jong has, so far, not provided a rebuff to any of Dr. Kelly’s points.
Read for yourself Dr. Kelly’s point by point (analysis) of Mr. de Jong’s teaching. Paul de Jong is pastor of Christian Life Centre in Auckland, New Zealand and a board member of Riverview Church in Perth, Australia. Dr. Russell Kelly is a USA based theologian who earned his doctorate with a thesis on tithing, and is author of the book “Should The Church Teach Tithing?”.
My personal favourite point is
DEJONG: “ …you can be sure I have heard just about every argument under the sun when it comes to the subject of tithing and God’s plan.”
KELLY: Then why do you ignore most of them? Your sermons should discuss related explanatory texts like: Gen. 14:21; Lev. 27:33, 34; Numb. 18 all; 35:1-3; Deut.12:6, 7; 14:23, 27-29; Josh. 20, 21; 1 Chron. 23-27; 2 Chron. 31:1-19; Neh. 10-13; Malachi 1:6 to 3:5; Matt. 23:2, 3; Acts 20:29-35; 21:20-25; 2 Cor 3:10-18; Eph. 2:13-17; Col. 2:14; Heb. 7:12-19; etc. etc. etc.
Why are the Tithe teachers ALL so quiet … ? Why do they boldly speak in their Churches and conferences - yet never respond openly to questions regarding their doctrine?
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily (“secretly”) shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Truth can stand on it’s own merits, Is there any need to keep “Truth” secret or private?
Come on tithe teaching Leaders – step up to the plate and go head to head with Dr. Russell Kelly – he is waiting for an opportunity to dialogue with you!
I will again ask the question:
“How can we trust spiritual leaders to teach us with important eternal matters when we cannot trust them teach us with respect to temporal and matters such as money?”
August 16th, 2007 at 10:40 am
geronimo, you made a few good points in post 260.
Am talking about churches which are intentionally or unintentionally mimicking hypermalls in their attempt to be relevant to this generation.
Is it coincidence it always seems to be a pentecostal church that build these huge megachurches and car parks?
Please let me give a brief outline of my pentecostal experience.
When I left the UCA (Uniting Church of Australia) in Parkdale Melbourne back in 1993 because of the hierarchy’s acceptance of homosexual ministers , a friend invited me to his Pentecostal church in Dingley… right next to Moorabbin airport. He said it is very “alive” church and I was eager to see how alive, so I took up his invite. We arrived 20 mins early to be entertained by a male and female singer, 2 electric guitars, keyboard, and a guy on drums. The music was very loud but I enjoyed it along with the rest. There were even some young girls literally dancing in the isle to the beat. Really, the atmosphere was that of a disco. When the show got officially underway, there was some solo acts and some gospel that I did not know the words to, and later still…some Choruses which were familiar. There were some apologies and reports on weekend sports results which the church affiliate, and then it was into what I thought was a sermon preached on giving, to which was closely followed by the collection plate. Mesmerizing music played the whole time the collection took place. Then there was a short sermon on the word “grace” that went for 10 minutes followed by some more solo acts with the band. After that a guest speaker from another city had something to say on the healing of his son, and then another song from the band and then an alter call for converts. This alter call took up a large part of the service. Last of all the pastor thanked the guest speaker and the plate was again sent round to thank him in dollars also. Before leaving, all were reminded to stop by the tressels set up at the exit door to buy books written by the speaker, and much more memorabilia…bumper stickers and printed T-shirts. The building was mostly glass and steel…like something out of the Jetsons…very classy. What struck me most was the size of the carpark. I tell you it was at least 3 acres in the industrial estate. Must have cost a lot of $$$. Although I was not impressed at all by this new modern Christianity, I still came back the following week to see if my first experience was a one of, but that was the last time.
Two things I was put off by was … the amount of loud music played by the band ( in all fairness…there was some soft music also) … and the amount of time talking about money … collecting money … and spending money. Between the two, I would say more than half the service was taken up. Around 2 years later while I was in Tas working, I saw on TV where residences 1 km away were complaing at the sunday morning music. I dont remember what became of that.
Since then, I visited 4 more pentecostal churches looking for the real Jesus to no avail. One in particular was lead by the laughing pastor… who would get up on stage an just laugh. It was a joke, fair dinkum. He (and his cohorts) said the holy spirit took control of him and there was nothing he could do about it. Later I was told it happens every other week. God does not need clowns to attract converts.
There was another incident involving the healing of my broken leg at the Richmond Temple in Melbourne that went all wrong. Basically I was told to throw away my crutches and walk around the church stage and isles…which I did. Big mistake. After the bone was re-ex rayed and found to be 3mm out of alignment, it took 6 months to heal instead of the regulation 6 weeks. In hindsight though, I can only blame my stupid self for believing he had the power. I was later told I should have rested the leg more and taken it easy after the healing. Sheesh…was my leg healed or not?
Now I realize I don’t need a church or a minister, pastor or teacher…all I need is Jesus. My church is you guys. I get more teaching from people like yourselves who are genuine and give it freely.Since those cloudy days I have been healed twice and 3 miracles that I will testify here one day, that have happened simply by faith in Jesus…and no middle man. Just me and Him.
My conclusion IMO:
Although there is no doubt there are some genuine pentecostal churches about, I have to say there are also some genuine money hungry thieving pentecostal churches also.
FaceLift…as I find you a humble and wise person, I can only assume your church has rubbed of onto you, therefore I would think your church is not of the greedy type.
geronimo …. I feel happy that you consider the church building, or any other instrument of God, holy enough as not to desecrate it in any way.
Good on you both.
August 21st, 2007 at 4:15 pm
For Lance: couldn’t post this at sp2, which must have moderated my comments, so I’ve stuck here for you:
OK. To review that comment:
I’m amazed at three things: One you don’t read what I say very much or you’d know that in essence I agree with you and Kelly on tithing in NT. Two, you have so little understanding of the Word and yet you blast away as if you do! Three, I think you continue the assault because I’m a pente and I actually blow away a few of your myths about us.
The word for tithe in both the Greek and Hebrew only ever mean ‘tenth’, or a tenth part’. It never has anything, in itself, to do with food. That’s where Kelly has led you down the garden path, because you have made him a personal expert, on the basis of one book. Check the languages for yourself:
Strongs:
Hebrew:
06237 rse `asar aw-sar’
a primitive root (ident. with 06238); TWOT - 1711c; v
KJV - tithe 4, take..tenth 2, give tenth 1, surly 1, truly 1; 9
1) to tithe, take the tenth part of, give a tithe, take a tithe
1a) (Qal) to tithe
1b) (Piel) to give a tithe
1c) (Hiphil) to take a tithe
Strongs:
Greek:
1176 deka deka dek’-ah
a primary number; TDNT - 2:36,143; n indecl
KJV - ten 24, eighteen + 2532 + 3638 3; 27
1) ten
Which gives us:
1182 dekatov dekatos dek’-at-os
ordinal from 1176;; adj
KJV - tenth 3; 3
1) the tenth
Which brings us to:
1181 dekath dekate dek-at’-ay
feminine of 1182;; adj
KJV - tithe 2, tenth part 1, tenth 1; 4
1) a tenth part of anything, a tithe
1a) the tenth party of booty taken from an enemy
1b) the tithes of fruits of the earth and of flocks, which by the law of Moses were presented to the Levites in the congregation of Israel
August 21st, 2007 at 10:23 pm
Yes Facelift- Tithe does mean Tenth. But that is a moot point.
The practice of Tithing used only agricultural product grown on Israelite soil, and only by wealthy land owners.
That’s why JC rebuked the Pharisees for tithing dill,mint and cumin …. why were they not tithing money. Money was around in Jesus time - fish even had coins in their mouths.
August 22nd, 2007 at 1:02 am
Um, well, I’m having a double discussion on this, so maybe you can take it up on SP2, where it is far more dvanced, and I cover this argument, although, Lance still doesn’t get it. It’s not a moot point. It has high significance.
In fact Hebrews 7:8-9 covers this well, but you have to be carefull not to be sidetracked, like Lance, into the usual anti-tithing arguments, and see that the writer clearly connects Abraham’s material, none agricultural or horticultural tithe of spoils with Levi’s receiving of agricultural, horticultural tithes, and makes the tithe a tenth of any increase, of the field of war, or of spoils.
Secondly, grain was used for more than food, since it is also seed, and produces harvests, and can be the cause of wealth for a nation through grain storage and exports. Joseph is the classic example of profitable enterprise through grain harvests.
He caused Egypt to be the most powerful nation on the earth at that time, completely sanctioned by God, through wise use of grain haqrvests, when God showed him the interpretation of Pharoah’s dream that there would be seven years of great Egyptian harvest and seven years of world famine. He was made PM and overseer over the grain harvests, and made Egypt and Pharoah great. Amazingly this was part of God’s plan and purpse for Joseph’s life.
August 22nd, 2007 at 1:04 am
That should read, ‘of the field, of war, or of the spoils’.
August 22nd, 2007 at 3:01 am
SignPosts is shutting down!
The
End
Is
Near….
(this is how Rob Bell would write it)