The Official Handbook “How to Fleece For Fun & Profit”
In the tradition of “Amway and the Contemporary Church”
Comes the “Official Handbook of How to Fleece the Flock for Fun and Profit”
©2002 OAIM
Lionfish’s Hot Picks:
”If anyone challenges you as a prophet of God, remind them of the verse that says “touch not the anointed of God” and of the consequences of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
”Discourage the flock from reading the Bible for themselves. Remind them often of how the Holy Spirit spoke to you and this reduces the need for study of the Bible because you have knowledge that supercedes the Bible. Don’t forget to inject a verse here and there so they will be convinced that this is from God. Choose obscure verses so the flock doesn’t realize that they have nothing to do with what you are saying. …
If any of the flock attempts to read the bible on their own, make sure you direct them to your interpretation of the scriptures by showing them what it “really” means”.
”The most annoying people are those who keep insisting on sound doctrine and one must guard against this attack at all cost. Your income and reputation are at stake on this one. However, this can be easily overcome through the buzzwords of “Can’t we all just get along? We all love the same Jesus”. Convince the flock that doctrine is divisive and that to love the Lord is all that matters. This works well because they then are the ones labeled as divisive and it questions their spirituality. When this is accomplished, it makes it easy to dismiss what they are saying”.
”Emotionalism is essential for a flock-fleecing ministry. Mimic the most successful fleecers and practice this often until you have it down pat”.
”For a ministry to thrive, money must regularly be fleeced from the flock. Don’t take all of the money at once because it would drain the well dry, and you must be careful to spread it out over a very long time in order to raise your own income”.
“Remember that the corrupt nature of man is to seek after fame and fortune for themselves at the exclusion of others. You can be assured of a following as long as you continue to offer them the possibility of riches and power. Keeping this in mind, continue to appeal to the corrupt nature of man and spiritualize it by suggesting that the things they desire are the same things that God desires for them. Often repeat the phrases such as: “God desires for you to be rich, healthy and happy above everything else.” Avoid people who claim that spiritual maturity is more important in God’s eyes than financial success. Keep your flock from these types. They can be very devastating to your ministry”.
May 23rd, 2007 at 12:41 am
Lance, you may just want to post a short excerpt and a link to whatever you find…you don’t want to be pointing fingers at others’ ethics if you are breaching copyright.
As to Chaser, I’d be concerned if the Chaser boys disrupted a miracle rally - not because I think Hinn is anything less than a shyster - but because there are so many desparately sick people that go to those, usually shunted in the back in some wheel chair/severely disabled corner by their well meaning but totally misguided friends, and parody may not be the best way to entertain much less get through to them.
Definitely out for church services. I don’t think anyone should condone entering a church for mischief making and stunts. Hillsong or not. It’s a dangerous precedent.
But as this is “ministry training”…sort of like a conference…hmmm…move over Ruby, here comes real gold? Dunno…
May 23rd, 2007 at 3:51 pm
Johnny Lee Clary is a fascinating character.
It seems that if you’ve been the boss of the Ku Klux Klan..and sign up to be a born again Christian, then churches will give you the thumbs-up from then on in, no matter what you subsequently say or do.
Johnny’s position on gays is interesting.
One minute he’s saying….
http://www.johnnyleeclary.com/gay.htm
“Regardless of what modern promoters of “gay liberation” might wish to believe, sexual perversions are not inherited genetically but rather are learned behaviors and willful sins.”
And the next minute he’s saying it’s not learned behaviour ..but a ’spirit’..
“I say invite them in or compel them to come into the House of the Lord. Here they will get the word and we can pray for them and pray the spirits of lesbianism and homosexuality be bound.”
He also (like most preachers) salivates over what he perceives Romans 1 is saying about gays…without bothering to read Romans 2, which explicitly states that he (and all other moralisers) are just as sinful as the homosexual..and just as reliant on God’s undeserved grace for salvation.
Clary seems to enjoy hanging around the money men of the lucrative speaking circuit; Copeland, Pringle, etc…and no doubt was adequately compensated at Christian Shitty Church last weekend.
He’s also not that fond of a particular church in Perth which wasn’t big on money.
http://www.johnnyleeclary.com/seekerfriendly.htm
“My first experience with a “Seeker Friendly” church took place back in the year 2000 in Western Australia at a Church Of Christ in the Whitford area. I was booked in to speak on a Sunday night for this church that normally ran around a couple of hundred in attendance but this night they had around 5 or 6 hundred because they had advertised. I arrived with a couple of friends and as soon as I stepped through the door the pastor’s wife greeted me. Instead of asking me if I would like a drink of water or a coffee or something along those lines, she immediately began to lay down the rules and regulations I was to abide by that night.
She informed me that I had about 30 minutes or so tops to speak and then I was to close in a prayer and that I was NOT to do an altar call or give any invitations to receive Jesus as Lord. I thought she was joking and replied, “What!” I was simply amazed when she repeated what I thought I had heard. “What do you mean by telling me I can not give an altar call?” I asked in astonishment. She replied, “We are a ‘Seeker Friendly’ church and we do not push people into responding to altar calls. We do not want to offend the people who never attend church by making them feel uncomfortable as they would if they see an evangelist putting them on the spot asking them to come to the altar and get saved. We just ask if anyone is interested in finding out more about the church to simply put up their hand and the ushers will give them a brochure on the church with a phone number attached. They will be told that there is no pressure whatsoever but if they would like to find out more about the church or have any questions on what it means to be a Christian or questions about Jesus Himself, then to call the number on the brochure. If we hear from them, we will do a follow-up and invite them to a friendly non-religious atmosphere where we explain all about salvation and what it means to be a Christian. This process usually takes a few weeks because we want them to be sure that they fully understand what it is to be saved and become a Christian before they make that commitment.”
She went on to tell me that studies have shown that when a guy like me gives an altar call where hundreds might respond, 99 percent do not come back to church and stick with it because the evangelist put them on the spot and played on their emotions and then when they get home and have time to sleep on it and think about it, they realize they were not ready and were forced into doing something they felt uncomfortable with and most do not return. She explained that if they are truly serious about Jesus Christ, then they will come back and they will not come back if they feel pressure to respond to an altar call. She also explained that they were trying to make the church as non-religious as possible, so that the non-Christians would want to come back.
I could not believe what I was hearing! I did not know where she got those statistics she was quoting but they were dead wrong. I also began to wonder exactly what did she think would happen if I obeyed her rules and didn’t give the people in attendance the opportunity to receive Christ as their Savoir, and they got killed in a car wreck sometime during the next few weeks while they were “seeking” or thinking about it. No, she didn’t seem to care which is typical of the “Seeker Friendly” church of today.
I didn’t even have to think about it. I am an evangelist and my job is to do what Jesus said to do in Mark 16:15: Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
(KJV)
Peter and the Apostles were told not to preach in the name of Jesus by those who were offended. Acts 5:27-29
27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,
28 Saying, Did not we strictly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man’s blood upon us.
29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
(KJV)
So did I give an altar call? You bet I did! When I gave the altar call about 200 hands went up from people who wanted to receive Jesus into their hearts!
The Pastor’s wife got up and closed the service. One of the agreements I make with churches is that I am happy to come speak but to please allow the people in attendance to be able to give into my ministry with a free will love offering. This does not place a burden on the church at all. This enables me to cover my expenses from traveling all over the world to preach the gospel and it gives the people a chance to be a part of what I am doing. God will bless them abundantly for this. I wish I didn’t have to do this as I wish I were independently wealthy to where I could just travel all over the world for free and give the good news of Jesus, but I am not that wealthy. I have bills to pay like anyone else and I depend on people who feel led to help this ministry to be a part of this ministry by helping me spread the gospel. That is why I operate with a FREE-WILL LOVE OFFERING basis when I accept an invitation to speak in a church. That way there is no pressure. People who want to help this ministry can feel free to do so, as the people who do not agree with this ministry do not have to give anything. Those who give though will be blessed of God according to Luke 6:38
38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
(KJV)
Seeker Friendly churches do not believe in taking up free will love offerings because in their words, it offends those in attendance who might be non-Christians and those who do not come to church on a regular basis. One of the people who accompanied me to that church asked the Pastor if they were going to receive a love offering for my ministry. The Pastor said no and said nobody told him he had to. He also asked if I had my own church in the United States and why did I need to come to Australia and ask Australians for money? This person told him that I travel on faith and all I ask is for a chance for people to be able to give freely to help me take the gospel all over the world. The pastor of the Seeker Friendly church then told my friend that maybe they could write me a small check from the church, which is exactly what they did; write a “small” check.
I spoke at one of the largest Seeker Friendly Churches back in 2001, and was asked to sign a piece of paper in order to receive a gift the church was giving me for speaking. This church has several thousand who attend it every Sunday, and when I told the elder that the way I work is to let the people give freely, he explained to me that since the church is Seeker Friendly, that was out of the question. He told me that they had never allowed a speaker to receive an offering from the crowd and would not start now. He told me either I accept the gift or I would not be allowed to speak. I noticed though as in the case of both Seeker Friendly churches I am telling you about, neither one hesitated to take up the regular tithes and offerings for the church! Can we say the word hypocritical?
1 Tim 5:17-18
17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
(KJV)
Needless to say, I was not too happy with what I learned about Seeker Friendly churches thus far. The pastor’s wife of the Seeker Friendly church in Western Australia, who set down the rules and regulations wrote me an email the next day, telling me that she planned on sending letters to other churches in Australia telling them not to have me because I refused to submit to her rules of the house by disobeying her orders. She had plenty of other nasty things to say to me, that are not even worth repeating. I simply contacted a very well known powerful pastor and church leader in Australia from the AOG, and he told me that I was not to worry about a thing, as he would take care of the situation. He did. Later that same evening I received another email from the woman, this time apologizing to me and admitting she was out of line for sending me that email and making those threats and asked me for forgiveness. She did get her last digs in though, as she closed the letter she said, “After all, of the 200 people who responded to your alter call, two actually got saved, so I guess we should rejoice for those two souls shouldn’t we?” So now she decides to play God and judges who actually received salvation upon asking Jesus in to their hearts and who didn’t!”
I’m not a fan of Whitford Church, but I congratulate them for wanting to warn other churches about Clary..
And Johnny the reason why they laid down the rules to you was because they probably had some idea what a dickhead you are..who makes a living out of telling people that you’re not as much of a dickhead as you once were when you were a racist arsehole.
May 23rd, 2007 at 4:03 pm
Wow. That post was like watching a footy game between two teams you hate.
May 23rd, 2007 at 4:10 pm
LOL ROFL
May 23rd, 2007 at 4:41 pm
To further add to the analogy, I seriously hate footy games.
May 23rd, 2007 at 4:42 pm
To further add to the analogy, I really hate watching footy games.
May 28th, 2007 at 4:40 pm
CCC Members Urged To Bail ‘Prosperous’ Church Out Of Debt
Phil Pringle
Christian Shitty Church, Oxford Falls.
Rise And Build - Debt Cancellation
Sunday May 27, 2007
10am service
http://202.125.166.74/ramgen/ccc/27050710am.rm
“(Pringle)….When we step out into this coming Rise and Build month ..we want to extinguish the cost of these renovations which is around about $6 million…and have no debts.
We’ve basically attempted to live a debt-free life as a church..and so we managed to build those buildings out there debt-free.
But then we needed to expand and renovate this building almost immediately after that..and so we did that the year following..and needed to borrow some money to get through that renovation.
And they cost us about 2 million more than we anticipated.
The air conditioning was about a million and there was other bits and pieces that weren’t anticipated in doing the renovation ..so we ended up having to pay a little more….”
May 28th, 2007 at 4:54 pm
I guess enlarging your tents is a bit more work than it would appear.
May 28th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
I could have a fabulous time with 4 million for bit and pieces.
I would need to buy a new house just for my shoes……
May 28th, 2007 at 5:25 pm
4 million- is a lot of bits and pieces…….
May 28th, 2007 at 7:05 pm
….and just watch the CCC schmucks dig deep. Unless you want to hear a month of tithing and giving sermons its always best to avoid CCCOF during the month of June (Rise and Build Me a Bigger Church Month). Actually I can understand air conditioning costing a million - there is a hell of a lot of hot air being expelled into that auditorium.
May 28th, 2007 at 9:13 pm
Johnny lee clary is so full of himself it’s unbelievable. BUt he’s right about one thing…the churches he preaches in it’s probably better that newcomers aren’t given much of a chance to really think through their decisions before committing.
What really bugs me though is that “call to a powerful AOG leader”. so he can’t handle any criticism? well I know this beacuse i tried once and he got all hot and bothered. and he threatened me with similar tactics. but i’m so sad that the women backed down.
May 29th, 2007 at 3:09 am
What a wanker.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5F8CJTixwJY
May 29th, 2007 at 4:18 am
Interesting this fascination with CCC.
Fact - Christians are the reasons why people join a church and it grows
Christians are also the reason they leave
How many seats have you filled or emptied???
May 29th, 2007 at 8:37 am
Onetrusted… I’ve filled a fair amount of seats… and I’ve emptied one… my own.
May 29th, 2007 at 9:27 am
emanresu………Christians and others seldom know the damage they do to others for the simple reason that the damagee is the victim of someone elses baggage. Someone who is damaged won’t pick up your baggage and sort it for you. They simple hobble away struggling with the debree you left behind without you even realising you have dropped it.
May 29th, 2007 at 9:30 am
And Lance wonders why these people won’t answer his questions or give him time of day. “What a Wanker” indeed. If you don’t like it, just leave. I did, but you don’t see me harping on about it every single goddam day. Get a life Lance, ya big fairy.
May 29th, 2007 at 9:37 am
“We are a culture of sticky up hair, sunglasses and wildly gestulating hand movements”
May 29th, 2007 at 10:04 am
Hey onetrusted,
I have brought many, many people to CCC over the years. Some of whom I suspect were scared off church for life thanks to the likes of Phil Pringle, Pat Mesiti, Rodney Howard Browne et al.
I have also paid for many of the chairs with my tithes over the years.
Memorably I was emptied from a chair in the 3rd row one night because it was supposedly reserved for “VIPs”. I had been invited to the event and was told to sit there. As I wasn’t one of the in-crowd, a deacon mistook me for a “nobody” and told me to move. See if you can find a scriptural reference to the word “VIP” anywhere on Bible Gateway - in reference to how we should be treating each other – most particularly in church.
May 29th, 2007 at 10:19 am
I rather think we can find in Scripture about asking VIP people to sit in the best seats of the house!!!
James 2
The Royal Rule of Love
1-4My dear friends, don’t let public opinion influence how you live out our glorious, Christ-originated faith. If a man enters your church wearing an expensive suit, and a street person wearing rags comes in right after him, and you say to the man in the suit, “Sit here, sir; this is the best seat in the house!” and either ignore the street person or say, “Better sit here in the back row,” haven’t you segregated God’s children and proved that you are judges who can’t be trusted?
5-7Listen, dear friends. Isn’t it clear by now that God operates quite differently? He chose the world’s down-and-out as the kingdom’s first citizens, with full rights and privileges. This kingdom is promised to anyone who loves God. And here you are abusing these same citizens! Isn’t it the high and mighty who exploit you, who use the courts to rob you blind? Aren’t they the ones who scorn the new name—”Christian”—used in your baptisms? (The Message)
I am sure that means we should NOT do this!!!
Janet McKinney
May 29th, 2007 at 10:21 am
James Chapter One.
Anyone who sets himself up as “religious” by talking a good game is self-deceived. This kind of religion is hot air and only hot air. Real religion, the kind that passes muster before God the Father, is this:
Reach out to the homeless and loveless in their plight, and guard against corruption from the godless world.
James Chapter Two - The Royal Rule of Love
My dear, friends, don’t let public opinion influence how you live out our glorious, Christ-originated faith. If a man enters your church wearing an expensive suit, and a street person wearing rags comes in right after him, and you say to the man in the suit, “Sit here, sir; this is the best seat in the house!” and either ignore the street person or say “Better sit here in the back row,” haven’t you segregated God’s children and PROVED (emphasis mine) that you are judges who can’t be trusted.
In my experience, this happens often in Penty circles. People are given preference in many areas according to wealth, power & public profile. It is very common.
May 29th, 2007 at 10:27 am
I think we are on the same page- literally- on this one Janet Mc!
May 29th, 2007 at 10:29 am
“Anyone who sets himself up as “religious” by talking a good game is self-deceived. This kind of religion is hot air and only hot air.”
…hence the million dollars on air conditioning (re post 637)
May 29th, 2007 at 10:43 am
abby… you prove the case brilliantly, that deacon has no idea of the damage he did to you by simply asking you to move,…. the scar is deep, so much so that you had to trot it out here for all to see. I agree that the experience of being relocated is traumatic. I would wonder if you had asked the question at the time, Was the person who originally seated you in authority to place you there? All churches have structure and authority whether it be a twenty seat or two thousand seat church. I have been asked to move many times in many different churches, never was a problem. In fact many mainstream churches have an unwritten seating plan and heaven forbid that someone should “sit in my seat!!!” As for paying for a seat with your tithes, actually CCC had a well known “seat purchase plan” as part of its original building fund late 1980s-early 90s, so I don’t think you have paid for any with your tihes. In fact I can’t find a single scripture that says that is what tithes are for.
May 29th, 2007 at 10:58 am
Thanks onetrusted. I did “trot” my experience out here - nice tone btw - i order to illustrate the type of issues that cause people to become disillusioned and hurt in churches such as CCC. This incident was one of many - not all about where i sat. The deacon in question embarassed me and when an onlooker pulled him up about his manner towards me his response was “don’t let the devil steal your joy, enjoy your evening”. I have no problem whatsoever sitting anywhere - usually I sat towards the back anyway. You have missed the point completely.
One thing you are right about is the tithing issue. Since CCC books are essentially closed I don’t really know where my tithes went. I contributed to Rise and Build, Mission Offerings, Love Offerings along with my tithes. One thing I do know is that there is an enormous expensive church building on Wakehurst Pky and the senior pastor drives a very expensive Audi.
May 29th, 2007 at 11:29 am
abby… sorry if that read as a jab at you, I apologise, my point is simply that we all get hurt and it is up to us to seek the saving grace of God to heal and move on. “Each person works out their own salavtion before the Lord, with fear and trembling,”… I know that without God’s grace none of us can stand.
As for expensive buildings and the trappings of worldly success - CCC is not the first nor will it be the last. There is plenty of scripture and historical evidence to demonstrate that, and God does not have a problem with prosperity. But he does have an issue with heart attitudes. While I operate differently to the leadership at CCC, I also know that they are tested as much as you or I and struggle with the same issues. Unfortunately the price of leadership is that you are judged more harshly than others, for everything you do, and you are always found lacking by someone.
Judge not lest ye be judged apparently doesn’t apply.
May 29th, 2007 at 11:35 am
If you dont like it Abby, that’s ok. Really it is, and I mean that sincerely. Just find a church that is a better fit for you. I went to CCC for a few years and got tired of it and have now found a church that is more suited to me. I dont understand why more people don’t just vote with their feet instead of constantly re-living old hurts. I did it for a year or so and I realised it was really doing my head in to hang on to it. Oh well, each to their own I suppose.
May 29th, 2007 at 12:08 pm
Thanks turtleneck..many do vote with their feet and many stay, the choice is freely made. The question is where has it left you???… like many trundling around scarred? (- no personal inference intended)
In fact many have not reached that stage of healing yet, many are still bleeding and keep the wounds open, the wound is infected and toxic.
No healing because they not dealing with the true issue of what is in their own hearts. (Often inadvertently dumped by some well meaning person from church.)
I guess it is easier to blame someone else and not be accountable. Pointing the finger comes easier than bareing the soul. Usually these wounded souls spend time wandering looking for the perfect fit, the right church.
Everyone needs to find a church where they can openly and honestly fellowship, worship and serve God. There is no ‘right church’, there are seasons of growth in every walk, when what we once knew comfortably and well no longer fits. Sometimes it never did fit and we try to pry it on because someone else is doing it, it seems good at the time, but then the chaffing begins and the blisters appear.
And as you point out each to their own, but we are all meant to be the one body of christ and little is achieved in damaging others in the body of Christ even if they have an Audi.
There are now and always will be people who are hurt by those who are already hurt and wandering, not yet healed. Healing comes when there is no more “proud flesh”
that has risen up and overgrown the wound. That proud flesh needs to be pared away to let the true healing happen. Then there is no more need to tend the wound it is forgotten and “forgiven”.
Be real, deal and heal.
May 29th, 2007 at 12:21 pm
that’s ok onetrusted. I don’t mind. I didn;t leave because I was bitter. I just left becaus I decided it wasn’t for me. I saw Phil’s Audi and I didn;t care. He’s spent 25 years or so of his life working at that place, the least he deserves is a leased audi for 25 years service.
but as for being real, deal and heal… I’d rather smoke, joke and do coke.
May 29th, 2007 at 12:21 pm
I voted with my feet about 2 years ago. I now attend a wonderful church. I am not constantly re-living past hurts either. I am contributing to a discussion about some disturbing issues within churches today - most especially megachurches such as CCC and Hillsong. I have had personal experiences which I think will help illustrate the issues and possibly help others who have had the same stuff happen to them. Many who have been hurt by these churches are told that the problem lies with them. That is is the general response when the leadership is criticised or questioned. There are are number of contributors here who can elaborate more on that side of things.
As much as I have found Signposts interesting and informative and entertaining (thanks esp Lance) I think this will be my last post. I am not up to the cut and thrust to be honest. Bye all.