The Official Handbook “How to Fleece For Fun & Profit”
In the tradition of “Amway and the Contemporary Church”
Comes the “Official Handbook of How to Fleece the Flock for Fun and Profit”
©2002 OAIM
Lionfish’s Hot Picks:
”If anyone challenges you as a prophet of God, remind them of the verse that says “touch not the anointed of God” and of the consequences of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
”Discourage the flock from reading the Bible for themselves. Remind them often of how the Holy Spirit spoke to you and this reduces the need for study of the Bible because you have knowledge that supercedes the Bible. Don’t forget to inject a verse here and there so they will be convinced that this is from God. Choose obscure verses so the flock doesn’t realize that they have nothing to do with what you are saying. …
If any of the flock attempts to read the bible on their own, make sure you direct them to your interpretation of the scriptures by showing them what it “really” means”.
”The most annoying people are those who keep insisting on sound doctrine and one must guard against this attack at all cost. Your income and reputation are at stake on this one. However, this can be easily overcome through the buzzwords of “Can’t we all just get along? We all love the same Jesus”. Convince the flock that doctrine is divisive and that to love the Lord is all that matters. This works well because they then are the ones labeled as divisive and it questions their spirituality. When this is accomplished, it makes it easy to dismiss what they are saying”.
”Emotionalism is essential for a flock-fleecing ministry. Mimic the most successful fleecers and practice this often until you have it down pat”.
”For a ministry to thrive, money must regularly be fleeced from the flock. Don’t take all of the money at once because it would drain the well dry, and you must be careful to spread it out over a very long time in order to raise your own income”.
“Remember that the corrupt nature of man is to seek after fame and fortune for themselves at the exclusion of others. You can be assured of a following as long as you continue to offer them the possibility of riches and power. Keeping this in mind, continue to appeal to the corrupt nature of man and spiritualize it by suggesting that the things they desire are the same things that God desires for them. Often repeat the phrases such as: “God desires for you to be rich, healthy and happy above everything else.” Avoid people who claim that spiritual maturity is more important in God’s eyes than financial success. Keep your flock from these types. They can be very devastating to your ministry”.
May 29th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
Turtleneck,
that’s how you live your life is it?
If you get ripped off by a dishonest business you just shop elsewhere?
You don’t warn your friends, complain to consumer affairs, attempt to get a refund…
If no one asks questions, then bad structures can continue unabated.
If no one complains then people believe they are the only ones with concerns and slide quietly out of the revolving door not letting the next batch of recruits know that there are any concerns.
May 29th, 2007 at 12:56 pm
ADHD… you read a lot into my post but essentially, yes, that is how I choose to live my life. If I see something I don’t want to be a part of then I remove myself from it. It’s not for me to say what’s right for others and their walk with God. But for me, that was the right thing to do. You have your path, I have mine. Far be it for you to assume any knowledge of me or my heart’s motives based on a few random sentences on an obscure blog. But the official sport of signposts seems to be jumping to conlcusions based on what I have read here so far so, let the accusations fly. I’m a big boy, I don’t mind.
May 29th, 2007 at 2:08 pm
Thanks everyone you prove the argument for healing beautifully. And if this isn’t blocked then we can safely (as previous attempts to log in were) assume that this website is truly interested in being fair and not unbiasded. I am not a CCC devotee and do not attend a megachurch but have been there and done that. Every Christian walk is different and develops overtime.
Have you ever climbed a mountain. At the outset the view to the top is spectacular, you set out with great enthusiasm and gusto, determined to conquer the mountain at all costs. The view is interesting but as you climb higher, it is harder to maintain momentum and you stall, slow, take breaks. The view has changed, perhaps cloud has obscured the peak, but still you push on. You look back where you have been and you notice things that you never had before. Perhaps that shape was not a rock but a log. Perhaps the distance was further than previously estimated. But you push on, one track leads to a dead end, so you backtrack and find a different route. Another track has been blocked by a landslide so you detour. eventually you reach the peak with great delight. You feel confident you have mastered the mountain. You look back at the valley and realise how far you have come. You gaze out to the sunset and you see that this mountain is only one peak and many peaks are waiting for you to conquer.
Praise God fellow conqueres that is the path we all walk. The higher you climb, the furhter you see and the less you realise you know.
May 29th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
(I was hoping for this to be post 666….but….)
“Get a life Lance, ya big fairy.”
Abby, you have been a great contributor to Signposts.
I would hate to see you pushed out of your Signposts seat by a dickhead like turtleneck.
Turtleneck is using the same ploy that the penty churches use to rob you of your voice.
They rehash the John Bevere ‘don’t take offense’ crap.
But if they had even the slightest understanding of recovery principles ..they would know that journalling your experiences, whether online or in private, is, for some people is a vital part of moving beyond their bad experiences..
It’s not ‘rehearsing old wounds’.
It’s verbalising them so as to regain the power over your feelings.
It may mean that you have to express the same set of wounds dozens or hundreds of times before they start to make sense to you and they eventually lose their power…and you no longer feel the need to verbalise them.
Some people like turtleneck are dickheads who have a ‘water off a duck’s back’ approach to life.
They have no empathy and compassion and refuse to emotionally invest themselves in anything.
They therefore have nothing to recover from when relationships go pear-shaped.
Some people though do emotionally invest themselves in relationships and life and the church.
And when their church experience goes wrong, then that’s a shock to the system.
Arsehole Christians will never understand why more emotionally-invested Christians take longer to recover from bad church experiences.
But for the emotionally-invested Christian..that’s part of the recovery and healing experience….knowing how arsehole Christians operate….and learning their power-plays..(such as using the John Bevere ‘offense’ crap to cover their own or other’s arses) so as to discover how they emotionally imprison people..rather than release them.
There’s a great line in the movie Thunderstruck which I’ll adapt.
” (turtleneck)….is a dickhead….has always been a dickhead and will always be a dickhead…so don’t get all worked up if he’s being a dickhead.”
There seems to be this amazing belief system in pentydom, that if something goes wrong all the time…then it’s ‘normal’.
Think about that for a minute.
Apply that sort of logic to Iraq, and then you’d have to say….’well, don’t take offense at what’s happening in Iraq because dozens of people being killed everyday in bomb attacks is normal. Just move on’.
I don’t know what organ penty Christians use to think, but it’s not their brain.
May 29th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
survey says….????
Wrong.
Once again, signposts gold medal jumper, Lance, does his schtick. For th record, I am not a “penty”. I am indeed a dickhead though. And proud. I’m probably the biggest dickhead I know.
Lance, you can’t do anything but surf the net and look for crap on people you don’t like. And for gods sake, you do it all on DIAL UP internet. It must take you hours to sort through it all. Which cements the idea that you have no life if this is how you spend your time.
May 29th, 2007 at 3:57 pm
“I am indeed a dickhead though. And proud. I’m probably the biggest dickhead I know.”
So why are we arguing?
“Lance, you can’t do anything but surf the net and look for crap on people you don’t like. And for gods sake, you do it all on DIAL UP internet.”
I had no idea I was engaged in internet class warfare (with a dickhead)
I am yet to find any content on the net that warrants me paying at least $20 extra a month.
“It must take you hours to sort through it all. Which cements the idea that you have no life if this is how you spend your time.”
Ever heard of the concept of doing 2 things at once?
May 29th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
Turtleneck - do like a turtle, pull your neck with head attached in.
onestrusted - trust other people to know themselves better than you do.
Abby- the majority of signposters I am sure understood the point you were attempting to make.
The terse, unempathetic responses you recieved sounded a little like …the spiritual butterfly, demon of pride, bitter spirit, unforgiving (insert notion of choice that blames the offended) total and utter crap I have heard in some church circles- I like to think of it as the total and utter lack of accountability doctrine.
‘Oh why can’t people forget the trauma they have suffered and just move on with their lives’ translated ‘It’s so much easier us jerks that abused them in the first place, when they do that’…..
I really have problems with people who re-victimise people who have suffered. Actually it gives me the shits.
May 29th, 2007 at 5:02 pm
Ahhhh…boys and their toys……I watch the same kind of cock strutting in the poultry pen daily only these ones have real feathers, spurs and beaks. I imagine you boys are more smooth, even if your words are not.
May 29th, 2007 at 5:11 pm
Daisy….by all means be offended, be hurt, why not we all have been at some point, some of us more than others. Forgetting something happened is not what I said, IN FACT acknowledge it, use it, empower yourself, be healed and be free.
But face God and ask what do i have to do here God?
Don’t let someone or something be your stumbling block or worse unmerry-go-round.
Bless you Abby, you are more precious than the wealth, words or wisdom of any church.
May 29th, 2007 at 5:23 pm
yeah daisy, good call. because we have to all agree with the majority here don’t we? What a joke.
May 29th, 2007 at 6:24 pm
Being accountable is fundamental to all christians, we are and will be accountable to God. We are and should be accountable for all our actions, as well as our inactions.
Empathy is not even a word known in the Bible, that is not to say we should not feel for the pain of others, we should and we should help. But no one should say just because “X” happened to them in a place, therefore it will happen to others, (and they did nothing about it when it did). Such warnings usually fall on deaf ears and if the hearer is damaged by our words then we have only further contributed to the problem. And it defeats the purpose.
If you have a problem with a church, talk to the church. Too many vote with their feet and don’t even raise a little dust with their heels before they go. All healing has to begin from within, within us, within our hearts, within our spirits, within our church and within its members.
Otherwise we are just repeating the same mistakes oblivious to our faults because there is no acountability.
But there is a godly way to deal with issues, and if having tried to do so and you remain unsatisfied, after seeking God in prayer, then the right thing to do is find somewhere that you can love God without the baggage that has been heaped on you.
I have heard plenty preached that I don’t agree with in plenty of churches. It is interesting though that it is only the issues that touch close to home that get our hackles up. Next thing you know we are offended, hurt or whatever.
My mother always said “people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones,” and “the apple never falls far from the tree”. In her way she was preparing me for these issues in life, but her pearl was always “do unto others as you would have them do unto you”.
That is unqualified - it doesn’t say “as they do to you”, “before they do to others” or “after they did to you”.
I sincerely pray for you all to be blessed and healed as I have had to pray for myself to be. You see I am not what Daisy assumed, -and I would not presume to know anything about Abby or the rest of you except for the few comments read here. Nor have I judged. My point is and remains we all walk our own walk, and we are accountable for the route we take.
May 29th, 2007 at 11:42 pm
Turtleneck, onetrusted. Points taken, my post was harsh. Apologies.
I am still concerned that Abby said that she was no longer going to post on Signposts, as she wasn’t up for critiques that obviously didn’t feel too “do unto others as you would have them do unto you”- for her. That text can be a bit subjective-what we may be able to handle “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” now I don’t mind heated debate (obviously);so I may assume that because I am ok with it, others may be also. However what is fine for me may be overwhelming or discouraging for my sister or brother in Christ.
“Prefer one another in love” or the Franciscan motto of “seek to understand rather than to be understood” may be as equally helpful.
May 30th, 2007 at 10:41 am
No problems Daisy. I see where you are coming from. But you kow, it applies equally to those who are pro-hillsong etc. If it’s good for the goose….
I’ve been reading back over the very early posts on this thread and a lot of people came and engaged in some good debate but it so quickly degenerated into personal insults etc, Lance being the chief. This is not a dig at you Lance, I just think signposts could be so much more than it currently is if we stuck to the subjects at hand instead of what we (mostly) all do now, and that is pay each other out.
May 31st, 2007 at 12:29 am
Abby is not playing fair…. go back and read her post 641 and 653, I don’t use name calling as a way of getting my point across. If I have made any point that cuts too close to the bone then that is the point, for any other tone I have already apologised….
May 31st, 2007 at 8:58 am
I dont quite see your point onetrusted (674).
Abby commented on CCC; the responses seemed to attempt to analyse why Abby felt the way she did in a personalised manner. If the response had been I disagree, to support this arguement, in relation to CCC I propose (insert arguement); however it read more like I think Abby’s problem is etc etc and she should get over it.
So I cannot support your agruement of “not playing fair”.
I really do not want to comment on Abby any further as she is no longer here to either defend herself nor clarify her comments.
May 31st, 2007 at 9:21 am
If someone sin against you go and tell them, if they don’t repent take someone with you, if they still do not repent then tell it to the whole church, and if they will not repent treat them as a non believer - Jesus
Just forget about it - turtleneck
rev
May 31st, 2007 at 9:26 am
firstly…. you’re assuming I am still in a church.
secondly… I already told you I was a dickhead.
thirdly…. who even cares?
May 31st, 2007 at 9:41 am
well I am sure you can just forget about it and be on with your life
rev
May 31st, 2007 at 9:47 am
Daisy….Who is doing the analysing????!!!!!…………My original post was an open statement in response to those before me, most responses to me were and are very curt in tone…but I haven’t cried foul…………. or should that be fowl… Oh and daisy in print abb, called people names as many fo these postings do….how schoolyard.
May 31st, 2007 at 9:51 am
The beauty of diverse perpectives, it makes life rich.
All the best onetrusted.
June 7th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
“Recently I had enquired about having a well known televangelist come to minister at our church.
Her office emailed us back a contact purposes. For her to come and speak, we must provide 2 first class airline tickets and 2 coach tickets for her ad jaunts. Two suites in a 5 star hotel. Also, her honorarium was $16, 000, plus she would raise the main offering and take half of that. Another televangelist asked for $25.000. Another asks for $50.000, but he took care of all of his travel & hotel expenses….”
From http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendID=75525437&MyToken=a51b13cd-1ef6-4be8-846d-1c00746ee3ebML
June 7th, 2007 at 2:52 pm
For anyone doing research on Riverview and the existience of the lucrative speaking circuit and the “unjustifiable amounts of money” that excahnge hands on this ‘con’ then refer here:
http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/09/09/the-official-handbook-how-to-fleece-for-fun-profit/#comment-165974
Now it is becoming abundantly clear as to why Phil Baker dodges the ‘hard questions’ and does not provide Financials to people upon request.
June 7th, 2007 at 3:10 pm
“I really like to see and hear from great men of God such as Jertzen, Hagee, T.D. Jakes and Rod parsley in our various conferences. If anyone ever thought about the amount of money they requesting? Friends, they all need over $50,000 in honorarium for 3 days. Now, you tell me, is that a good idea? If it is then, can you tell me how we can raise that money from the youths? I really like to see some young people come forward and say, I can be a mega or grand sponsor so let us bring it on.”
From http://www.pcnakyouth.net/dBoardContent.asp?selectedThreadId=392&selectedSubject=Speakers
June 7th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
Hi All,
Just looking at the CCC Oxford Falls web page
http://www.ccc.org.au/default.asp?page=risebuild
It is quite a worry to read the “Frequently Asked” part of the page.
God apparently has approved of the tax deductions given by CCC for Build for Life donations
But I did smile when I saw the following:
“How can payments be made to the Rise and Build program?
A. There are a few different ways to make payments to Rise and Build:
- By cash, cheque or credit card using the Rise and Build envelopes
- Through your employer (salary sacrificing)
- Through a financial institution by way of a direct debit
- Via internet banking
- Via online giving at our Donations page.”
I always knew that CCC meant cash, cheque or credit card!!!
One other point is that the only refernece to Dr Phil pringle’s thesis has now vanished from the following site.
http://www.ccc.org.au/sca/default.asp?section=staff&page=scaCore
Cheers for now DB
June 7th, 2007 at 4:36 pm
One point that should be made about Christian Shitty Church’s current ‘debt cancellation’ Rise And Bullshit program..(caused by cost over-runs on the refurbishment of the main auditorium) is that it PROVES that Pringle’s principles don’t work.
The only reason that the CCC’ers currently aren’t a bunch of sad sacks …grieving the financial collapse of the cult, is because they got a loan from a SECULAR institution to cover the shortfall.
God did not provide (unless they count the loan provider as being part of God’s abundant provision….and if they do…then their theology is more of a joke than we previously thought…and John ‘at Aussie - we’ll save you’ Symonds is a Man of God).
So now that Pringle has had to go cap-in-hand to the bank and his own congregation to bail him out ….if a CCC’er doesn’t put 2 and 2 together..and figure out that Pringle’s prosperity doctrine is a self-serving sham….then frankly they deserve to keep getting ripped off as punishment for being so stupid.
June 7th, 2007 at 6:35 pm
The thing that bothers me is the empire building mentality the Penty’s have all dressed up in building God’s kingdom emperors clothing.
The Penty culture across most of Penty land is very competitive.
Pastors building their empires, so they can be the fairest guest speaker in the land. Sickening.
June 7th, 2007 at 6:36 pm
I agree its pathetic the abuse of money by these leaders
and paying anyone $50000 is disgusting, expose the lot of them for their GREED.
How can they justify this ??? Love of money
June 7th, 2007 at 7:40 pm
daisy please dont label all pentes the majority are decent normal christians
there are many non-pentes full of greed
June 7th, 2007 at 9:46 pm
Fair enough Abdullah, I was one for a long time. I suppose there is nothing worse than a reformed Penty.
June 10th, 2007 at 1:20 pm
“A couple who leads one of Brazil’s biggest evangelical churches pleaded guilty on Friday to smuggling tens of thousands of dollars into the U.S. in luggage, a backpack and a Bible.
Estevam Hernandes Filho, 53, and Sonia Haddad Moraes Hernandes, 48, are also charged in Brazil with stealing millions of dollars from parishioners for luxuries such as mansions and horse farms. They will likely be deported home after their U.S. case is resolved.
The couple - known as Apostle Estevam and Bishop Sonia to their thousands of Christian faithful - admitted evading U.S. currency requirements and conspiracy.
“Yes, guilty,” Hernandes and his wife each said in Portuguese to U.S. District Judge Federico Moreno, according to a court translator.
Hernandes then tightly hugged his wife, who fought back tears. Both declined comment, as did their lawyers. Their church said in a statement issued Friday that the couple did not expect to go to prison and awaited their sentencing “with enduring calm and confidence in their acts.”
The couple founded Brazil’s Reborn in Christ Church in 1986, and it now claims hundreds of thousands of followers and about 1,200 temples in the country with the world’s largest Roman Catholic population. The church has temples in Orlando, Deerfield Beach and Boston, and their empire also includes newspapers, TV and radio stations, a recording company and a Brazilian patent on the English word “gospel.”
Brazilian authorities say the couple stole parishioners’ donations for their own use, including mansions and horse farms in Brazil and the United States. Brazil is seeking the couple’s extradition from the United States on charges of fraud, larceny, tax evasion and money laundering.
Church officials in Brazil have said the charges result from religious persecution, and followers have continued to express support.
The U.S. charges were brought after the couple arrived at Miami International Airport in January on a flight from Sao Paulo, Brazil, with $56,467 cash stashed in luggage, her purse, a son’s backpack and a Bible.
Prosecutors say they failed to declare on a customs form that they were carrying more than $10,000.
Trial had been scheduled to start next week.
Under a plea agreement, the couple will forfeit the cash.
The charges carry a maximum of 10 years in prison, though the couple would probably get far less under sentencing guidelines. The judge could also impose fines of up to $500,000 each.
Sentencing was set for Aug. 17. Until then, the couple will remain under house arrest at a home they own in a gated neighborhood in Boca Raton, the judge said.”
From http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation/AP/story/133163.html