The Official Handbook “How to Fleece For Fun & Profit”
In the tradition of “Amway and the Contemporary Church”
Comes the “Official Handbook of How to Fleece the Flock for Fun and Profit”
©2002 OAIM
Lionfish’s Hot Picks:
”If anyone challenges you as a prophet of God, remind them of the verse that says “touch not the anointed of God” and of the consequences of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
”Discourage the flock from reading the Bible for themselves. Remind them often of how the Holy Spirit spoke to you and this reduces the need for study of the Bible because you have knowledge that supercedes the Bible. Don’t forget to inject a verse here and there so they will be convinced that this is from God. Choose obscure verses so the flock doesn’t realize that they have nothing to do with what you are saying. …
If any of the flock attempts to read the bible on their own, make sure you direct them to your interpretation of the scriptures by showing them what it “really” means”.
”The most annoying people are those who keep insisting on sound doctrine and one must guard against this attack at all cost. Your income and reputation are at stake on this one. However, this can be easily overcome through the buzzwords of “Can’t we all just get along? We all love the same Jesus”. Convince the flock that doctrine is divisive and that to love the Lord is all that matters. This works well because they then are the ones labeled as divisive and it questions their spirituality. When this is accomplished, it makes it easy to dismiss what they are saying”.
”Emotionalism is essential for a flock-fleecing ministry. Mimic the most successful fleecers and practice this often until you have it down pat”.
”For a ministry to thrive, money must regularly be fleeced from the flock. Don’t take all of the money at once because it would drain the well dry, and you must be careful to spread it out over a very long time in order to raise your own income”.
“Remember that the corrupt nature of man is to seek after fame and fortune for themselves at the exclusion of others. You can be assured of a following as long as you continue to offer them the possibility of riches and power. Keeping this in mind, continue to appeal to the corrupt nature of man and spiritualize it by suggesting that the things they desire are the same things that God desires for them. Often repeat the phrases such as: “God desires for you to be rich, healthy and happy above everything else.” Avoid people who claim that spiritual maturity is more important in God’s eyes than financial success. Keep your flock from these types. They can be very devastating to your ministry”.
June 10th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
“Mary Manin Morrissey, the woman who built up the Wilsonville-based Living Enrichment Center into a powerhouse church with 4,100-members only to see it collapse in 2004 amid charges of fraud and betrayal, is restarting her life as a roving inspirational speaker.
Morrissey is spending five or six days a week on the road traveling across the country to various engagements, generating a six-figure income.
The charismatic 58-year-old has been less successful in repaying the $10.7 million she borrowed from her former flock.
More than two years since she signed a consent agreement with state securities regulators, Morrissey has paid just $60,000 into a restitution fund. At that rate, it will take her more than 300 years to repay the debt in full.
She is technically in default of the consent agreement because she has not kept pace with the repayment schedule. Morrissey failed to pay $50,000 into the fund within 150 days of its formation, prompting a $100,000 civil fine from the state on top of the $10.7 million debt.
Morrissey has met the requirement that she pay into the fund 15 percent of her gross income. “From the information Morrissey provided, we do not see any gross violations,” said Simon Whang, enforcement officer for the Oregon Department of Corporate Finance and Securities.
But the organization of Morrissey’s new company, LifeSoulutions, has prompted questions from the state. As currently organized, Morrissey’s partner in the venture receives as much as 40 percent of the operation’s revenue, which means it is not subject to the requirement that a portion of it be diverted to the restitution fund.
State officials have asked Morrissey for documents detailing the corporate structure of LifeSoulutions. Morrissey told them that on the advice of an attorney, there are no such documents. Nothing was put in writing.
“We’re researching the law and considering our legal options,” Whang said. “But it is a very unusual situation.”
Morrissey’s ex-husband, Edward Morrissey, who also worked at Living Enrichment Center, has shouldered blame for the church spinning out of control. He pleaded guilty to a single count of money laundering in April 2005 and served 18 months in federal prison before his release Feb. 2.
He too must pay over a share of his income to repay borrowers. He has paid about $240 from his wages at Hot Seats Bar & Grill, a Tualatin sports bar, Whang said.”
From http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1181267788141050.xml&coll=7
June 10th, 2007 at 11:55 pm
“Morrissey’s ex-husband, Edward Morrissey, who also worked at Living Enrichment Center, has shouldered blame for the church spinning out of control. He pleaded guilty to a single count of money laundering…”
“How to fleece for fun and profit” - A Case in Point.
Where does the money of CCC / Hillsong / Revierview flow to - if Financials are not provided upon request?
June 11th, 2007 at 2:53 am
Pastor Michael Pitts, who preached at the Christian Shitty Church Oxford Falls 10am service on April 15 http://202.125.166.74/ramgen/ccc/15040710am.rm …is going to jail…Paris Hilton-style.
“A Toledo-area minister charged with drunk driving will spend more than a week in jail.
Pastor Michael Pitts entered a no-contest plea to drunk driving Tuesday morning in Maumee Municipal Court.
The case began in December 2006. According to the Ohio State Highway Patrol, Pitts was driving on US 20A in western Lucas County just east of the county line when he stopped for a routine vehicle inspection. The trooper said he smelled alcohol, and did a field sobriety test.
The results of that test caused the trooper to take Pitts into custody, and take him to the Highway Patrol Post on Airport Highway. Their breathalyzer machine there is broken, so troopers say Pitts provided a urine sample that was sent to Columbus for analysis. A urine test confirmed Pitts was legally drunk although he told the court he only drank two glasses of wine.
After Pitts’ plea, Judge Gary Byers found him guilty and sentenced him to 9 days in the Corrections Center of Northwest Ohio in Stryker. Pitts will begin serving his sentence June 14th. The judge also fined Pitts $300 and took away his driver’s license indefinitely. Pitts can petition state to get license back.
Pitts has been found guilty of driving under the influence once before. He also pleaded “no contest” in April of 1998 to two charges of criminal trespassing in a case where he was accused of exposing himself at Oak Openings Metropark. The deal threw out several charges of indecent exposure. The prosecution in his trial had rested its case, and the defense had begun calling witnesses when the plea deal was struck.
Similar indecent exposure charges in Wauseon and Toledo were thrown out.”
From http://www.ohionewsnow.com/?sec=news&story=sites/ONN/content/pool/200706/116176089.html
June 11th, 2007 at 3:08 am
As Benny Hinn prepares to ‘train for ministry’ at Christian Shitty Church Oxford Falls tonight and tomorrow……
“They came in their droves to feel the power of teflon televangelist Benny Hinn.
It’s Friday night and Benny’s in the house - the house of God - and in Benny’s house no kids are allowed in the aisles, no talking during the anointing and, apart from an occasional “amen” and “hallelujah”, no chatter permitted at all.
And that’s without exceptions, as one woman apparently suffering from Tourette’s syndrome discovered when she was rudely ushered out of Benny’s house, Auckland’s Vector Arena.
“Shut up. You cannot be speaking when I am preaching. Nobody can do that here. We cannot allow people to be speaking back to me when I am ministering the word,” Hinn yelled.
Pastor Hinn required conformity from an audience, which included many who were sick and had come to be healed.
“I have come to give you the word of the Lord,” Hinn proclaimed. And the Lord sure does move in mysterious ways.
According to surely one of his best-paid prophets, it’s estimated Hinn’s annual income is US$100-$200 million.
“This is the house of the Lord. Don’t let your children play in the aisles.”
To a second parent, Hinn insisted: “This is not your house and not a football stadium.”
Another churchgoer was also humiliated in front of the 7000-strong audience, this time a lone man, who was discovered wandering around the auditorium.
“Would you please find a seat? You must understand, distraction kills the anointing and I won’t allow no one to distract me, so sit down now. I am not going to change,” Hinn snapped.
The American-based preacher paid tribute to the several thousand people who were turned away from the “crusade” and applauded those who had lined up for 12 hours to secure a seat at the free event, many of which were pre-booked online.
The host of TV2’s early morning series, This is Your Day with Benny Hinn, is currently pleading on his website for donations. “$1.8 million is immediate and pressing, and it requires your most urgent attention. In fact, unless I raise a substantial amount of money in the next 72 hours, This Is Your Day with Benny Hinn could be taken off one of its airings,” reads the message.
The church-funding watchdog Ministry Watch, which reviews the financial transparency of religious organisations, recently criticised Hinn, saying his expenditure revealed the organisation had far more money than required to carry out its international operations. Ministry Watch urged members to “prayerfully consider withholding contributions to Benny Hinn”…….”
From http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10444619
June 11th, 2007 at 11:17 am
The discernment from these large churches is sadly lacking. Will there be any statements about Michael Pitts going to jail from the CCC pulpit.
This is where the mega church leaders need to be corrected and held accountable, there just doesn’t seem to be a system that allows this.
June 11th, 2007 at 11:29 am
Hey abdullah i’m interested in understanding something. My dad is still part of an aog semi-mega church (in numbers it’s not so huge but still has the mega-church mentality if you know what I mean) anyway he has a lot of problems with things there but genuinely believes that it’s going to turn around. It was hard for me to understand why he’s still there but I kind of get it now. Is that how you feel about pentacostalism? I know you said you were with a smaller penty church, do you think things are going to turn around in aog world?
June 11th, 2007 at 11:46 am
emma
I believe some aog/pente/mega type churches will turn around and there are many who now are questioning things from the pulpit. I do think some of these prosperity preachers will repent and start making a stance against greed.
I believe there are pastors who are so greedy for money that they will not change and will end up in hell - yes i believe in hell and the love of money by some leaders is a disgrace
I believe that there will even be splits in some of these churches because people will be fed up with the bad teachings. These splits will be good and get rid of the junk.
The problem is I dont know the future and how it will outwork in specific churches and leaders.
I would pray for your dad that God will show him to leave if things wont change but maybe God wants your dad there to be part of the changes and to minister to the hurting when it happens.
Its very hard to know totally thats why trusting in God is crucial.
I think where there is abuse occurring people must speak up.
My friend went to an aog church where the pastor was a control freak.
My friend was disgusted with what he saw and eventually left.
He now says it was the best experience for him because he knows that if he does the opposite of what that pastor did he is pleasing God.
Thats pretty cool, that PASTOR WOULDN’T LIKE TO HEAR THAT.
June 11th, 2007 at 11:54 am
yes. I think for me, I had to leave, for my own sake of mind and because I just couldn’t justify any longer what was going on. What you said, “but maybe God wants your dad there to be part of the changes and to minister to the hurting when it happens” is pretty much how he feels. I can understand and accept that, even if I don’t believe that the church is a healthy place to be right now.
June 11th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
St Paul tells us to ‘flee’ from these false teachers.
June 13th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
“Jesus wants you to drive a brand new Nissan Navara 4×4. He’d also like you to live in a classy house, use the latest cellphone and wear the snappiest designer clothes.
That was the message from a recent sermon at the new Soweto branch of Brazil’s huge Pentecostal-style Universal Church of the Kingdom of God.
The church is expanding fast in Africa and bills its gleaming new cathedral in Soweto - which seats 8,000 and has room for hundreds of plush cars in its vast underground garage - as the biggest church on the continent.
The church’s “prosperity gospel” message, which tells members to expect financial blessings from God as long as they give “sacrificially” when the collection plate comes around, is proving a hit in the world’s poorest continent.
And it holds special resonance for the faithful of Soweto - a sprawling township once gripped by violence and poverty and now home to a burgeoning black middle class.
“God doesn’t want you to be poor and ashamed - he wants you to drive a new car,” the preacher at the new Soweto church yelled into a microphone, to delighted whoops from thousands.
A couple get on stage to explain how they gave a large chunk of their money to the church then watched their business grow. They were soon able to buy their own house and two cars - including the much-vaunted Nissan Navara.
“A brand new Nissan Navara, people,” shouted the preacher “God wants to show his power in your life, too.”
The church started in Rio de Janeiro in 1977 and has spread to more than 90 countries with 10 million members, according to its website.
Critics say the church is a cult that manipulates its members. The church insists it is part of the mainstream Pentecostal movement and notes members are not forced to donate money.”
From http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=9d089b76-6d24-4dd2-a5c5-0b5e76518484
June 13th, 2007 at 4:19 pm
“The aluminium dome is impressive. By night, fluorescent lights illuminate the words ‘Jesus Dome’ in bright blue. By day, the Durban Christian Centre (DCC) comes alive. Today, the 5500 capacity hall is two-thirds full – it’s a large crowd. So with due aplomb, Pastor John Torrens enters on the back of a growling Harley Davidson, a chariot that is slightly at odds with his slick designer suit.
Strange inspiration for a man of God to draw on, but the stunt, he announces when he ascends the stage, is to lure men to the upcoming men’s meeting. He invites the faithful to money management and property seminars the following week. And then it’s time for his sermon. Success, the pastor says, is what God wants for His people.
‘You’ve got no option,’ he says in his Americanised accent, whipping the worshippers into a fervour. ‘If you’re born again, you cannot but be successful – successful in your marriage, your job, the car that you drive.’
His voice fills the dome, competing with the ‘Amens’ and ‘Hallelujahs’ of the congregation. ‘I don’t care if you come from bad socio-economic circumstances: if you’re a child of the Lord? God will force success into your life. Say: “Come right on in, Success, I’m welcoming you right now”.’
After all, says Torrens, there’s nothing sinister or wicked about success – biblical figures like Joseph, Solomon and David were all wealthy. And anything good enough for them can surely not be bad for ordinary believers. Torrens and SAsathe DCC faithful – a cross-section of South African society, most of them young families, many with their arms wrapped around each other – end the service on a high, chanting the words to their own song: ‘I can have everything my eyes see by faith.’
Welcome to the prosperity gospel. Globally, this movement is branded in various ways – ‘word of faith’, ‘name it and claim it’, among others – but its central message is that God wants you to succeed, and the more you believe, the more you will achieve materially, as well as spiritually. In other words, God wants you to be rich. Rooted in 1960s American evangelism and spread through televangelism since the 1980s, this movement is currently experiencing phenomenal growth in South Africa, especially in the charismatic wing of the Christian Church.
Critics say the prosperity gospel is pure materialism packaged in a religious guise. Others say it’s merely a modern interpretation of religion that is true to our capitalistic times.
South African Council of Churches general secretary Eddie Makue is concerned about this ‘rising phenomenon’. He says there are opportunists ‘who are using the name of God for self-enrichment.
In the process, they are making poor people feel guilty because they can’t give like the rich. A priest driving a Bentley from money collected from poor people – that’s diabolical’. With this particular brand of Christianity, it’s hard to negate the profit motive – both among pastors and followers, who use the church as a supreme networking platform. ‘In some cases it’s just about the leader enriching him or herself,’ says Professor Fika Janse van Rensburg, director of Biblical Studies at the University of the NorthWest. ‘You can see this in the number of shams being uncovered.’
Prof Van Rensburg says this philosophy can be ‘detrimental for any believer. This gospel persuades people that what’s lacking is faith, that’s why they’re lacking prosperity.
? The biblical stance is that God wants to give [what’s] good for His children. This isn’t necessarily prosperity, but what’s best for them and their situation.’
Preaching the prosperity gospel seems to be a break from the conventional Christian silence on the subject of money. Indeed, tradition- alists would say that it conflicts with the image of a poor Christ sacrificing money for spiritual wealth. It’s no wonder then that the mention of money and religion often makes people feel uncomfortable.
Pastor Torrens, a former stock-broker and pharmacist, is not so shy.
‘Nothing touches the heart of a person as much as [their] wallet,’ he says. ‘It reflects your behaviour and what you truly believe in.’
Torrens insists that God wants His people to prosper because successful Christians can use their influence to guide more people to the church, and use their money to help the downtrodden in society: ‘Jesus said the love of money is the root of all evil, not money itself. Money isn’t evil, money is neutral, and it’s neither good nor bad. It’s when it comes into the hand of an individual that determines whether it’s good or evil.’
Torrens’s wife, Joy, was raised in the DCC. Her father, the church’s founder, Dr Fred Roberts, insists that prosperity equips congregants for the pressures of the modern world. ‘Our philosophy is that every person in our church will have a job, food and [will] own their property,’ she says.
Like many prosperity churches, DCC has the resources to implement community changes. Feeding schemes, a social grant system and an HIV/Aids clinic are just some of the activities the church is involved in. ‘People who are coming through there, their lives are changing, they have hope,’ says Joy.
But Prof Kallie August of the University of Stellenbosch’s Theology department says this charity can also have a hidden agenda. Charity to the poor should aim to empower people and should be unconditional, he says. ‘There’s a problem if you do charity in order to make members for the church. Jesus preached the exact opposite – you should serve the world because you’re convinced Jesus loves people. You do it because of God’s love, not to institutionalise everything.’ Althea Skei (34) fiddles with the ring on her finger: a square- cut sapphire the size of a large pea glints in its setting of white gold. A year and a half ago, Pastor Raymond LeFleur of the World of Hope Ministries church in Lansdowne ‘revealed the Lord’s plan’ for her husband’s life.
As a gesture of thanks, Althea gave the pastor her wedding band. ‘At the time I didn’t have any money [to give to the church], so I “sowed” my wedding band,’ she says. The band, a diamond set in nine-carat gold, has now been replaced by the sapphire. Ten years ago Althea’s husband, Marshall, was unemployed. They were living ‘hand-to-mouth’ in quarters on someone else’s property. But then they became ‘200% dedicated to the Kingdom’s message’. Today they own property in Kuilsriver’s Zevenzicht Estate – where a 3-bedroom home costs more than R1 million. Marshall’s real estate business is booming.
Althea, who drives a zippy Smart roadster, has a weakness for shoe shopping and even nipped off once to China to indulge it. ‘There’s nothing wrong with [liking beautiful things],’ she says. ‘God gave us this ability to love beautiful things ? all of us want to live more comfortably.’
Althea studied educare and pre-primary education, but then managed a fast-food restaurant while Marshall started his business. ‘We started searching; we really wanted to improve our situation. We were then introduced to the teachings of Creflo Dollar and Kenneth Copeland. We started titheing ? But we reached a point where we wanted someone home-based, someone who spoke the same language as Creflo Dollar. The minute we stepped into this church, something happened in the spirit.’
Althea’s eyes shine. ‘Prosperity touches every facet of our being. Your existence changes when you start to listen,’ she says. Currently they tithe 30% of their gross income. ‘We are end-time kingdom financiers – we are here to finance the gospel,’ says Althea. ‘Whatever the pastor needs, we finance that. We contribute to the budget of the church.’
Central to Althea’s faith is respecting her mentors – the pastoral couple at the church. She explains the need to have ‘faith like a child’ – to be obedient and open to the gospel. ‘If the pastor tells us to do something, we do it. There are no long hours of debate around should we, could we, must we – we just do it.’
Althea feels her life is beyond what she’d ever dreamed possible. Her involvement with the church has given her a new education in money management. She learnt about titheing, offering (giving above and beyond your tithe), giving the first fruit (giving your first pay cheque to the church) and the Passover offering.
On top of all these offerings, there is also a special day of honour for the Pastor.
‘A homeless man, if he’s hungry, you can’t just say “God bless you” – that’s not going to fill his stomach. God’s not here, but we’re here. We’re His representatives on earth. One day the church wants to be able to send truckloads of food and feed people in the community, give better education and give people houses.
‘We need to speak about money because the church has been silent about it for years and years. Especially in our communities, we need to be uplifted. And who better to uplift us than God?’….”
From http://www.women24.com/Fairlady/Display/FLYArticleTease/0,,806_14494,00.html
June 16th, 2007 at 5:50 pm
An update on Christian Shitty Church visiting speaker Pastor Michael Pitts, who is now in jail.
“A popular area pastor is behind bars this morning. Pastor Michael Pitts of Maumee Cornerstone Church will spend nine days in jail for driving impaired.
In December a urine test showed Pitts had alcohol in his system during a traffic stop.
Last week … Pitts pleaded “no contest” to the o-v-i charge … and was found guilty.
Pitts also has to pay a 300- dollar fine … plus other costs. ”
From http://abclocal.go.com/wtvg/story?section=local&id=5396745
June 17th, 2007 at 1:19 am
“Australia is the world’s smallest continent, but it is also the sixth largest country. Most of the nation’s 20 million people live along the eastern and southeastern coasts. Sydney, capital of the state of New South Wales, is the country’s oldest and largest city with an urban area population of more than 4 million.
Sydney, Australia’s Emerald City, is considered to be one of the most beautiful and livable cities in the world, as well as a global and domestic tourist destination. Admired for its distinctive harbor, beautiful coastline, warm climate, and cosmopolitan culture, Sydney and its surrounding suburbs have significantly raised their global profile in recent years, especially as host of the 2000 Olympics.
Located in Oxford Falls a suburb of the Northern Beaches of sunny Sydney, Christian City Church was the site for the much anticipated June conference.
Opening Service
An enthusiastic audience welcomed Pastor Benny Hinn to Australia on Monday evening, and he opened the conference with a powerful teaching that contrasted God’s presence and power.
Quoting from Acts 1:8—“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth”—Pastor Benny shared, “The result of God’s power on your life and my life is service.The Spirit of God comes upon you and me for a reason and a season. God’s presence is what fills your heart when you are saved. The power of God does not change the heart of man. The presence of God changes the heart, and it is the presence of the Lord that nourishes your life as a Christian and brings you true joy. The power of God demands that an individual become so surrendered that he must become pliable in God’s hands. And when the presence of God comes upon you, you begin to live the Christian life in fullness.”
As Pastor Benny brought his teaching to a close, an anointing for miracles descended in the service, and many people came forward to testify of God’s healing touch.
Session Two
During the Tuesday morning service, Pastor Benny continued his teaching on God’s presence and God’s power.
“God’s presence is for Christian living,” he proclaimed. “It enables me to live in Christ.
God’s power is for service. It enables me to do for Christ. The presence of the Lord does not increase. It is constant. God’s power multiplies and increases, from addition to multiplication to greater multiplication.”
Pastor Benny shared some tangible signs of God’s anointing, which include:
Hunger for God
Unity
Desire for worship
Prayer
Association with other believers
A trembling and shaking (sometimes)
A rejoicing heart
Using several scriptural examples, including Acts 19:12 and Mark 6:56, Pastor Benny shared how the anointing can be transferred to others.
Final Service
In the Tuesday evening session, Pastor Benny presented a powerful teaching on demonology and deliverance, “The power of God drives away demonic powers.”
He addressed the topic of demonic powers briefly and took time to share the five divisions of angels and the five levels of the underworld. He also pointed out that we have power over all of these evil forces—“The blood of Jesus is your protection, but the blood of Jesus must be revealed to the hearts of man before the anointing can operate.”
Pastor Benny shared from Scripture how the blood of Jesus Christ:
Covers
Gives favor
Breaks the curse
Fulfills promises
Imparts the promises
Brings you out of slavery
Brings God’s presence
Reconciles
Cleanses
As Pastor Benny began to bring his teaching to a close, a mighty anointing of the Holy Spirit intensified. He called all pastors and ministers to the front and began to anoint them with oil and lay hands upon them, asking God to anoint their lives for ministry. He also took time to minister to the youth and to lay hands on many of the young people who attended the conference.
A Request for Prayer
Pastor Benny urges, “What a wonderful time. I had been looking forward to returning to Australia since our last crusade here—which was so memorable and amazing. I believe that God is doing something even more powerful in the hearts and lives of people through what happened at the Training for Ministry Conference at Christian City Church. During these prophetic days, our wonderful Lord is calling believers to a higher level of faith and understanding, and so many believers responded to this challenge during the service there. I ask partners and ministry friends everywhere to pray for the people who attended our conference, that God would continue to build up an army of effective witnesses and ministers throughout Australia during the coming days!”
Donate Now”
From http://www.bennyhinn.org/articles/articledesc.cfm?id=273
June 18th, 2007 at 10:59 am
Hmm I am sure the last time I endured 10 mintues of Benny Hinn on TV he said something about not laying hands on anyone except in a church service and then by a minister or something. And why too does he carry on about God’s presence in his rallies? And don’t let me start about “the anointing.”
What a snake. And what an idiot is Pringle to align himself with such a snake.
June 18th, 2007 at 12:24 pm
“What a snake. And what an idiot is Pringle to align himself with such a snake”.
It’s not an alignment - its a “brood”.
June 18th, 2007 at 12:54 pm
Heh.
And toxic to the extreme.
Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups.
June 18th, 2007 at 1:33 pm
Interesting thing that I just remembered recently. I remember during an offering message, Ps. Phil was telling the congregation about how he was asking God what to do about tithes and offerings when CCC was just starting. God said to him to “don’t steal from my people.” I wonder if this somehow got misinterpreted?
June 22nd, 2007 at 3:35 pm
There’s this question that’s been buzzing around my head the last couple of days…so I may as well put it out here.
If in Christian Shitty Churchland…they’ve essentially deemed holy all the things that the world has to offer…an abundance of finances….strong marriages…nice cars…nice houses…. nice clothes… good health….a good career… then what’s the point of Christian Shitty Church.
You can have all these things without going to CCC and all CCC is offering is the same thing plus a faith in God..(which I don’t have to go to CCC to have)
So…what’s the point of Christian Shitty Church’s religion again…..because….isn’t it just the same as what everybody is already living out in the suburbs?
Or is the whole idea of CCC to put the rubber stamp of God’s approval on the life you’re already living?
It’s like if I walked into a clothes shop…and said…’can I have some clothes please’…and the shop assistant says …’you’re already got the clothes you’re wearing’..and then I go…’hey yeah right…I’ve already got some clothes….duh…..thanks….I don’t realise that’.
I mean….I don’t get what CCC is meant to be offering…because people have already got what they’re offering.
And I would have thought people who’ve left CCC would be saying to themselves…’nothing actually changed in my life at CCC except I gave a lot of money to Phil Pringle.’
June 22nd, 2007 at 3:46 pm
I mean CCC has a rock band…..my local pub has a rock band.
CCC has a children’s ministry…there are child care centres dotted around the suburbs.
CCC has bullshitting wankers…. we have FM music radio….
Most people who are already leading the CCC life out in the suburbs already have their own faith in (some kind of) God….so what’s the point of difference between existing Australian suburban life and CCC meant to be?
June 24th, 2007 at 1:21 am
Phil Pringle sacrificially ministering in a remote Queensland community.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q_-SkzAu-Pw
June 24th, 2007 at 11:28 am
To all those current CCC Oxford Falls members who are lurking here at Signposts trying to find out more about what is being said about your church (not to mention those who are smart and spiritual attuned enough to see for themselves that there is something very wrong going on there) I URGE you, start asking some questions of the leadership. Robb Thompson, Michael Pitts, Benny Hinn. It’s about the money guys. It’s all about the love offerings and the merchandise and appearance fees and the first class travel and the trips to Tahiti and Haymen Island.
June 25th, 2007 at 5:36 pm
Dan Korocz from CCC has written a book on worship. There is a review here…
http://your.sydneyanglicans.net/mission/resources/worship_the_revolution_is_here/
June 25th, 2007 at 8:58 pm
Is this possum man Dan?
June 25th, 2007 at 10:05 pm
Read the article about Dan Korocz’s book on worship.
If the article is a fair reflection of worship in similar churches - to quote Charlie Brown - gooooooood grief!
Seems to me the boat has been well and truly missed.
June 25th, 2007 at 11:33 pm
“Dan makes a number of bold assertions which are simple errors of fact, such as his statement that “the Bible talks about faith being the only thing that pleases God…”
He is like his mentors. Fruit never falls far from the tree.
June 26th, 2007 at 11:04 am
Shit, that’s really really sad. It’s particularly sad because I’m quite fond of Dan… but then again, he’s only 22, and I’m only 23, and a truckload of things can change in a year. 2 years ago I might’ve agreed with everything he said. Hopefull he’ll have his own turnaround.
June 26th, 2007 at 11:12 am
I have closed my eyes and I have visualised Hayman Island……hmmm it feels a bit new age to do this, but what the hey…..
Visualising, visualising, visualising…..
Nope I am still here sitting in front of my computer, wondering why I am struggling with my belief in Christ after 23 years in Pentecost…..oops that isn’t very ‘pose it vatee’.
Visualising visualising…….
June 26th, 2007 at 11:40 am
Do these kids have mentors? Honestly, I know so many kids in their early 20s - and I use the word “kids” deliberately, because that’s really what they are (and I’m not out of my 20s yet, so it’s not as if I’m that much older than them!!) - and so many of them are given huge “stages” - whether it’s a podium, or a book, or an airing on prime-time TV, and they just DON’T have the wisdom to deal with it. They talk ignorant sh*t and there seem to be more people in awe of them than there are people who are applauding their enthusiasm but also gently bringing them back to earth. We’re giving these young people so much responsibility - we’re entrusting them with spiritual leadership! - and yet we lack the structures to provide safety nets for that…
sorry for the inarticulate rant. I haven’t read the book but that review of it was enough to push my buttons…
June 26th, 2007 at 12:02 pm
While the die is cast to an extent, God does not give as easily as we.
He will keep calling people to himself.
I am mindful of some of the means that God can use.
The reviewer mentioned Job, although God is often much gentler than that. (And Job hadn’t really gone anywhere else at that point either.
I remember what I was like at that age, and what I have learnt by the grace of God since (and still learning).
Cheers
MN
June 26th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
Do these kids have mentors? Does anyone ask that about the Emerging church leaders too?
From : http://mattstone.blogs.com/journeysinbetween/2007/06/i.html
“Now I want to introduce some other stuff I have learned from engaging with other religions. The fastest growing religions in Australia, Wicca and Buddhism, reserve many of there deepest mysteries and rites for initiates. They do not water their rites and practices down to make them accessible for casual visitors, yet these movements are growing far faster than even Pentecostal Christianity. Is that not sufficient demonstration that welcoming services may not be as universally expedient as we have been led to believe?”
Wow, so now we are going to introduce Occult-like initiations into Christianity. These guys are either on to something really revolutionary, or they will create another system which will end up causing as much hurt and abuse as the previous ones.