The Official Handbook “How to Fleece For Fun & Profit”
In the tradition of “Amway and the Contemporary Church”
Comes the “Official Handbook of How to Fleece the Flock for Fun and Profit”
©2002 OAIM
Lionfish’s Hot Picks:
”If anyone challenges you as a prophet of God, remind them of the verse that says “touch not the anointed of God” and of the consequences of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
”Discourage the flock from reading the Bible for themselves. Remind them often of how the Holy Spirit spoke to you and this reduces the need for study of the Bible because you have knowledge that supercedes the Bible. Don’t forget to inject a verse here and there so they will be convinced that this is from God. Choose obscure verses so the flock doesn’t realize that they have nothing to do with what you are saying. …
If any of the flock attempts to read the bible on their own, make sure you direct them to your interpretation of the scriptures by showing them what it “really” means”.
”The most annoying people are those who keep insisting on sound doctrine and one must guard against this attack at all cost. Your income and reputation are at stake on this one. However, this can be easily overcome through the buzzwords of “Can’t we all just get along? We all love the same Jesus”. Convince the flock that doctrine is divisive and that to love the Lord is all that matters. This works well because they then are the ones labeled as divisive and it questions their spirituality. When this is accomplished, it makes it easy to dismiss what they are saying”.
”Emotionalism is essential for a flock-fleecing ministry. Mimic the most successful fleecers and practice this often until you have it down pat”.
”For a ministry to thrive, money must regularly be fleeced from the flock. Don’t take all of the money at once because it would drain the well dry, and you must be careful to spread it out over a very long time in order to raise your own income”.
“Remember that the corrupt nature of man is to seek after fame and fortune for themselves at the exclusion of others. You can be assured of a following as long as you continue to offer them the possibility of riches and power. Keeping this in mind, continue to appeal to the corrupt nature of man and spiritualize it by suggesting that the things they desire are the same things that God desires for them. Often repeat the phrases such as: “God desires for you to be rich, healthy and happy above everything else.” Avoid people who claim that spiritual maturity is more important in God’s eyes than financial success. Keep your flock from these types. They can be very devastating to your ministry”.
July 18th, 2007 at 6:21 pm
I am truely liking the sound of Chris Pringle. Does the women’s leadership follow her example? If so next time CCC send me an mail invitation to their women’s conference (which they have doing for years now), I think I’ll go. I almost went this year, but backed out at the last minute- decided it was too soon to venture back into Pentecost even a different ‘brand’. To be honest I was also fearful I would be disappointed in what I might observe. It would be refreshing indeed to witness a Chris Pringle in welcoming action.
July 18th, 2007 at 7:28 pm
Daisy, I am a bloke but I have worked sometimes as a volunteer at the women’s conferences. I have to say, it’s very scary to be in a room of 2000 women… it’s like the Oprah show but more so! Anyway, my point is, Chris Pringle has personally tended to some very deep hurts of my own. Her heart is as big as anyone I’ve ever known and she’s not afraid to let it show. One time, without knowledge, she said she was praying for me one night and God told her some things that he wanted to heal in me. When she prayed for me it was like a light went on in my soul and years of hurt just melted away. It wasn’t Chris Pringle that did it, it was God, but he used Chris. The fact that she was praying for me one night really touched me. I know for a fact that Phil & Chris actively pray for people in their congregation when they are at home, off the clock so to speak. I think you would love the women’s conference. There’s a bit of everything in there. I’m sure you’ll find something you like. Don’t listen to Lance’s out of context postings. You really have to be there, the web streams leave a lot out in terms of context and the feeling in the room at the time.
July 18th, 2007 at 8:05 pm
Hi guys… back from holidays.
I’ve heard Chris speak once at a women’s conference… and based on your posts Daisy I don’t think she’d be your kind of speaker. She is warm and bubbly and enthusiastic but… I think you’d probably want to hear from someone with a bit more theological depth. (as I said, I’ve only heard her once, so that might be harsh).
I don’t know how the women’s conferences work at CCC… I think she’d be a good MC / hostess… you’d have to look at who the other speakers were.
July 18th, 2007 at 10:57 pm
Thankyou both turtleneck and Janet.
A bit of light and shade never hurt anyone…I like theological depth, this is very true. I also like thought provoking and brain straining mensa scarey people. Sometimes warm and bubbly and enthusiastic (if geniune) can also be good for the soul.
Come to think of it, I just like geniune people.
July 19th, 2007 at 2:04 am
Chris Pringle is probably a nice, hospitable person and perhaps Phil is too - as are probably countless other people we know, Christian and non Christian (I notice that the about Phil and Chris page only mentions Phil these days).
But they are the heads of CCC International which claims to be a Christian church (although what they think church is is up for questioning, given they can’t even seem to recognize the importance of communion, as Teddy pointed out in another thread). They are the ants pants for many CCC ministers in their network. BUT they promulgate lots of false teaching. They make money and self-promote by selling self-published books they (mostly Phil) writes full of crap (to put it nicely). They open their pulpit and support lots of shysters. For the love of God, fake-doctor-Phil thinks Benny Hinn is genuine and has something to teach people.
Yeah they are probably both genuine: genuinely nice and genuinely misguided. Chris is probably a genuine airhead as well - like many others we know - cute.
The question you would have to ask yourself though is this: does CCC Oxford Falls or CCC as a “movement” have the genuine marks of a Christian church?
And here’s a follow up: why do you need to go to their church to maintain friendships with people who go there? Could that itself indicate another mark of a church which they fail?
July 19th, 2007 at 6:17 am
Well, I think it is quite humorous when Lance comes in and shines his tungsten light on the crux or near-crux of an issue after everyone else is going at the obvious. In CP’s case it’s the thing about sex with her hubby.
Once again we have the wife of a meghawattage church phastor, feeling that she has to inform the people about her sex life. To me these are the self appointed standard bearers of the ‘relevant leader’ group. It seems as if they play this role of ditsy, fake stammering uber cool youthie to garner notoriety as some kitten right at the cutting edge of male female relationships, ‘we’re so real’. You can hear the same common denominator bullshit in any youth meeting, or if you want to study the art of the fake stammer in order to gain attention and spotlight, just listen to any radio journo doing a spot and hogging the time for his or her own career embellishment. It’s really patronising in a church, i’ve always hated it, just talk normally pleeese, i have a brain and i am not interested in your sex life nor do i need a laugh or to feel some common bond with you.
As with everyone else here, I have met Chris P and been interviewe
July 19th, 2007 at 6:23 am
ooops,
..on their telly show, she’s ok, i like airheads, they’re fun, she even wrote a great song years ago. but hey, she’s just another leaders wife doing her thing.
maybe i’m an airhead too, so what, most musos are a bit loopy, i don’t care anymore cos i like myself now that i don’t have to listen to church bullshit anymore.
July 19th, 2007 at 10:13 am
I do think it’s far more important to God (and to me) that we are loving than we are smart or well educated… but in a Christian speaker I would like to hear something that will challenge, stimulate, edify, be based on a depth of understanding of the scriptures. As I’ve stated on this site before… I have a concern about the level of theological education of leadership within Pentecostalism… I remember 10 years ago or so Cheryl Catford (then lecturing at Tabor) stating her concern in a class that Pentecostalism would drift to heresy because of inadequate theological education. This coming from a Pentecostal, not an opponent of this movement, but a concerned participant. I think that drift has been demonstrated here.
Hey Daisy… I’m running a women in leadership conference on the 18th of August in Melbourne… there’ll be plenty of meat and plenty of inspiration and smart, theologically educated, terrific speakers. Like to come?
On second thoughts… it’s freezing in Melbourne at the moment. You’d better stay away…
July 19th, 2007 at 10:23 am
Janet, How can you say that theological training is what keeps people from heresy when some of the greatest heresies come from theological college teachers? There is no proof to me in history that the uneducated are more capable of falling into error than those educated. I would say that the admonition to study to show yourself approved, correctly handling the word of truth, is a very important one. But more often than not the people I see making all kinds of bullshit out of the scriptures are the highly educated geniuses like Spong and his ilk.
rev
July 19th, 2007 at 10:49 am
Of course theological literacy is not the only grid I use in evaluating who I want to learn from… but it is one of the grids.
I also value integrity, Christian walk (”walking the talk”), the ability to unpack the scriptures for today (which is not the same thing as knowing about them academically), good communication skills, a heart for mission, orthodox views of God and Christ, (and I don’t care how much academic learning they have done… it’s not good theological training in my book if their views are heretical) etc.
The context of this discussion is large gatherings of people… presumably to receive high quality teaching from the scriptures. I’ve only heard Chris speak once so this might be a harsh assessment… but although she has charisma and good upfront skills she appeared to have so little knowledge of the scriptures she said virtually nothing worth saying… I have no interest in hearing her again. (Apologies if that one off is an unfair representation of her knowledge of the bible and her ability to communicate God’s word).
The other context is the subject that often dominates Signposts… Pentecostalism in particular is becoming heavily infected with prosperity doctrine and a distorted view of Christian leadership authority and other areas of concern… and it appears many of the pastors of the movement lack the theological tools to critique this.
I know it’s not the only thing that matters, and of course the heart, and the way we live day to day, matter more… but I am not anti intellectual or anti-education either. In fact… there are elements of anti-intellectualism in Pentecostalism that I think might bite it as a movement.
July 19th, 2007 at 10:52 am
Saint, I don’t really have a quibble with discussion over doctrine or church practice, but my main point was really over the dopey attack on people for actually living somewhere, having a spa, and generally about things which are not our business. Let God deal with leaders about how they live and where. Maybe gossip columnists can point out what colour curtains Mrs Pringle may have, and whether they clash with the carpet, but who gives a rip about their personal life, and my other point is that it was taken off a less than two minute grab, which was clearly a testimony about how they Pringles relate to their parents and to each other, and done in a light hearted manner. Do you know what the rest of the message covered?
Our message has as much to do with how we conduct ourselves publicly as it does with any kind of theologically ’sound’ ‘pulpit’ performance. I, and several others, have testified that Chris Pringle walks the walk when it comes to being a caring, warm, open-hearted Christian woman. And, yes, being a ‘nice, ‘pleasant’ person is a Christian virtue which preaches as loudly as any evangelistic sermon.
Let your light so shine…
Look closer. Chris has her own page! And what makes you so smart and so got-it-all-together that you can call someone else an ‘airhead’? It takes more than airheadedness to be a caring, hospitable person. It takes preparation, a welcoming disposition, and an ability to look beyond the faults of others.
July 19th, 2007 at 10:58 am
But your comments continue the idea that there are certain people that are properly educated, and properly trained to therefore do for us what we cannot do for ourselves. That people that have the money and status that allows them certain kinds of training are more able to “lead” than others. Once again confirming the western caste system (though I understand in the western system you can move between castes it is still a system that puts certain people above others.
Why this matters so much to me, is that it seems very apparent to me that this was not the way of Jesus. Infact Jesus did not receive the special training that a rabbi was expected to get, and then he chose working class uneducated men to carry on his tradition. I know they were called to study the word, and reflect on Jesus teachings, and infact became learned. But this is not the same thing.
When it comes to any kind of gathering what I care about is integrity, do people faithfully live out what Jesus teaches. Ofcourse this requires us to learn about Jesus, but I would suggest that we learn more about Jesus from actually living his teachings than studying them.
rev
July 19th, 2007 at 11:14 am
“your comments continue the idea that there are certain people that are properly educated, and properly trained to therefore do for us what we cannot do for ourselves.”
That is not what I intended to convey at all… proper theology leads us to an egalitarian view of Christian community… we understand that we are all priests, we are all part of the body of Christ, that leadership is servanthood, etc.
And you’re right… formal qualifications aren’t the issue… but competence is.
I should note most of the authors you recommend are theologically trained people… there are so many wonderful books out there written by theologically trained people… for the few Spongs out there, there are many other wonderful servants of God who happen to have done theological study… and who have benefited from it, and who help us to understand what the scriptures really mean (as opposed to what we think they say).
And YOU are theologically trained… which actually (I think) probably gave you tools that help you in lifelong learning… and it probably helps you to articulate your views and values on ministry.
GOOD theology is not the enemy, Rev… academic pontificating doesn’t help the cause of Christ, but good theology does it no harm… provided it is a means to better action and reflection, not an end in itself.
Cheryl Catford is an insider in the Pentecostal world, and I highly respect her and her views… I think they are worth considering.
What might you propose as an antidote to creeping heresies and superficiality within Pentecostalism, as a matter of interest?
July 19th, 2007 at 11:24 am
I have to agree with the rev here. Jesus didn’t train theologians. He trained disciples to make disciples. He commanded them to make and train disciples to perpetuate all the things he trained them in and for.
It’s rather a dilemma for theologically driven people that the ones who seem to attract converts and grow successful churches and even movements are apparently less educationally equipped than they consider appropriate. Even Paul considered is great qualifications as dung compared to the pursuit of the resurrection life in Christ.
Besides, I think if people were more honest they would look and see that there is sound and learned theology to be found amongst Pentecostal streams, who are actually quite diverse, and not at all a single ‘movement’. The loud but microscopic doctrinal contribution of TV evangelists isn’t reflective of the whole Pentecostal theological library, which, I believe will grow in the coming years. I wouldn’t take the thoughts of a Tabor teacher, Pentecostal or no, as an absolute.
As the rev hints, it is the theological inadequacies of some seminaries which have led to the development of Pentecostal and WoF colleges. What pastor would send their people to a theological seminary which says miracles and healing, along with the gifts of the Spirit, have ended, speaking in tongues is either not important, not New Testament current, or of the devil, and all prosperity is totally bad, and a host of other silly errors! What kind of theology is that!
July 19th, 2007 at 11:36 am
As Janet points out, formal qualifications aren’t the issue… but competence is.
Facelift, I don’t see how discipleship can exclude theological training - this might occur in a theological college, in a pub, or over the dinner table, but it’s theological education nevertheless. Jesus didn’t provide people with a theological education? Seems to me that we have just as much evidence of what he SAID as what he DID in the New Testament, and I’m not sure what the sermon on the mount was if it wasn’t a form of theological education.
July 19th, 2007 at 11:46 am
I agree that theological training does not harm, and in fact it will often do much good, but it is not the measure of what enables one to be a leader, nor do ministry. I have found that many people who have very limited theological training, and no formal training are among the most Christlike people I have ever met. I would suggest that it is the whole hearted follower of Christ that is most equipped to say, as Paul did, “follow me as I follow CHrist” and often the most educated are prideful and not practioners of the theology they espouse. What I would like to see is not the demeaning of theological reflection, but rather a greater respect for a holistic discipleship that includes walking in community, the fruits of the Spirit, faithfulness, experience, theology and the centeredness on Christ’s mission and life.
And I am not defending clever speakers with big churches, I think big churches are like big SUV’s often just an attempt to show everyone how important I am.
rev
July 19th, 2007 at 11:46 am
I agree that some theological training is required for leadership. I don’t understand, though, why it isn’t being acknowledged here that most Pentecostal movements, and many churches have theological training colleges which cater for this. In fact, I believe Tabor is one of the campuses which provides assistance, information, curriclum and covering for some colleges in Australia, which is why I think that is an odd comment from the teacher quoted.
July 19th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
It’s not good theology… and I’d be the first to say you should pick a college carefully… and one that indoctrinates with particular viewpoints (eg speaking in tongues is of the devil) should be avoided! But I am concerned about what some of the Pentecostal colleges are leaving out of their courses (particularly ministerial formation stuff and pastoral care with an emphasis on “vision and leadership”… and some basic theological tools)
Please hear me… I’m not trying to elevate theological study above discipleship… but understanding what the scriptures really say and having skills and tools to interpret it for today… are important skills for those with a call to Christian ministry and leadership, however they are gained. Empty academic pursuit is useless… but there is great value in digging deep into the scriptures… the anti-intellectual “the Spirit gives life, the letter kills” mantra can be an excuse for shallow thinking… Jesus really studied and knew the scriptures… and Jesus listened to the voice of the Father… and both things matter.
I’m not a qualifications snob either… if a person with no qualifications is gifted in evangelism and growing a church God bless them… but they or their team need to have a degree of scriptural savvy to grow “fruit that remains”… growth is not always a sign of “fruit that remains”
July 19th, 2007 at 12:07 pm
Rev…yes, on all counts. I totally agree with your post, and I agree that formal training can be over-estimated. However I think in some circles it’s often basically completely ignored…in non-hierarchical communities I don’t think formal training matters so much, because there’s a greater philosophy of walking/learning/journeying together…no one person is held up as an “expert”, and there is more likely to be greater dialogue, so that it’s socially acceptable to question/challenge leaders.
I do, however, have a problem with this scenario: highly hierarchical, institutionalised churches, where people are stuck up on stages or behind pulpits, and stuck on metaphorical pedestals, but do not have the knowledge or qualifications to back it up. I have listened to so many appalling sermons given by 25 year olds to congregations dominated by 16 year olds. If someone is going to work for the church full-time, and is going to regularly preach, and regularly counsel people, then they should have the training to enable them to do that…and I don’t care whether it happens in a theological college or what, but it has to be demanding and rigourous. I am often amazed by how people will go and do, say, a Bachelor of Arts with a major in sociology, or a Bachelor of Science with a major in botany (or whatever)…and then go to the church, but never, ever, even take some basic training in hermeneutics and pastoral care. If you’re going to work in a highly institutionalised, hierarchical subculture, and take advantage of being held out as an “expert”, then you should have some kind of training to back that up. The issue again is one of competence, not formal training…too often people are assumed to be competent simply because they’ve grown up in a church, they’ve been on various committees, they’ve been in the worship team, and they’re related to someone. Those things might equip you in some ways, but they can never replace vigorous bible study.
July 19th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
Ooops… my starting line related to post 794.
Tabor does provide theological training. I think Cheryl’s concern was related to some smaller colleges that seem to be in the business of pumping out church planters / workers in a hurry… she felt these places weren’t actually covering important theological bases. Do the graduates really have the tools to lead and teach over the long haul? Are they able to critique ideas that circulate… some of which are plain wrong?
It appears we’re all on the same page that good theology (or biblical teaching if you don’t like the term “theology”) is important… and that faithful living out of the teaching of Christ is more important.
July 19th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
well bec, you highlighted to me how completely stuck in my own context I am. I just cannot stand, nor have any interest any longer in hierarchical structures that continue the time honoured tradition of pedigreed experts, and structural authority.
rev
July 19th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
“…..my main point was really over the dopey attack on people for actually living somewhere, having a spa, and generally about things which are not our business.”
In Western Australia now, authorities can seize houses, boats, motorbikes …anything considered to be the proceeds of organised crime.
And the onus is on the suspect to prove that they acquired their wealth legitimately.
Hmmm.
July 19th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
I agree with you Bec… I know the Rev would probably say the antidote to heresy is accountable community and an authentic desire to follow Christ, but I’m of the view the institutional church will be around for a while yet… and if it is around and influencing people then it ought to be the best it can be!!!
July 19th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
* Gets mental picture of Pastors having sex in a spa *
OMG, The Goggles !!! They do Nothing !!!!!
July 19th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
Rev,
I’m not a fan of pedigreed experts either. I judge someone by their actions, not by their formal qualifications. I apply this to all areas of my life - not just the church.
Case in point: there’s an email circulating today by an academic in a particular area of study. Their email is patronising and simplistic in the extreme. Their signature lists their qualifications - which are many. That doesn’t mean the email isn’t stupid (and that’s exactly why it’s flying around the web!)
July 19th, 2007 at 12:30 pm
Janet - at 803 - yes. I guess my view is this: if you want to take advantage of a particular structure, or set of norms/rules, then you also have to play by them. Too often I see people in the church “playing” by one set of rules at one point in time, and then playing by another set when it suits them to do so.
So, we have churches which employ the rhetoric of “community” to encourage greater participation in church services, mission etc…the paid church staff end up working a 40 hour week and people who have jobs outside the church end up working an 60+ hour week because they’re working one FT, paid job, and one PT, voluntary job. Or, we have churches which are very formalised, institutionalised etc, but those who preach have no formal, institutional qualifications. Or you have churches where pastors are only given the minimum leave/pay required by law (”because that’s all the law requires of us”), but the law isn’t followed in other regards (”we don’t have to follow privacy laws, or food laws, because they’re stupid…and we’re a community, not an institution”). This kind of hypocrisy drives me insane.
July 19th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
Yes… if you are an institution, be an ethical one!
July 19th, 2007 at 12:40 pm
* Gets mental picture of Pastors having sex in a spa *
You see..it’s one thing to be old and wrinkly and have sex….but to actually deliberately get in a spa so you become MORE wrinkly…and then have sex….is just obscene.
Anyway…I’m sure the youth of the church…who’ve been told to ‘wait’ by the Christian Fun Police are thrilled by Chris’ tales of geriatric erotica.
‘This is how we do it kids…but you wait your turn.’
Good pastoring.
July 19th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
Lance, I think you are underestimating these brilliant disciplers. If there is one thing that would have made me not want to have sex ever again, it would have been imagining my pastor and his wife going at it in a jacuzzi. Which is why my wife and I mention sex occasionally around my kids, I mean if your uncool, old, churchy parents are doing it, it can’t be worth doing right?
rev
July 19th, 2007 at 1:40 pm
FaceLift you will do anything, anything, to defend this lot. Do you think people would get sucked in to such heresies as those espoused by the Pringles if they didn’t do it with a smile on their face?
Rev et al. How would you recognize someone who walked the talk if you didn’t know what the talk was in the first place. Just a little bit more of experiential based theology. Oh I can just FEEL that they are? Bit gnostic almost don’t you think?
Yes I do believe that there is an anti-intellectual, anti-authority streak in pente circles (note: authority is not the same as authoritarianism, although there is plenty of that around in pente circles). It is the constant refrain of many ex-pentes. I recall even one item by Olsen on the Azusa St anniversary which was a subject of discussion here.