The Official Handbook “How to Fleece For Fun & Profit”
In the tradition of “Amway and the Contemporary Church”
Comes the “Official Handbook of How to Fleece the Flock for Fun and Profit”
©2002 OAIM
Lionfish’s Hot Picks:
”If anyone challenges you as a prophet of God, remind them of the verse that says “touch not the anointed of God” and of the consequences of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
”Discourage the flock from reading the Bible for themselves. Remind them often of how the Holy Spirit spoke to you and this reduces the need for study of the Bible because you have knowledge that supercedes the Bible. Don’t forget to inject a verse here and there so they will be convinced that this is from God. Choose obscure verses so the flock doesn’t realize that they have nothing to do with what you are saying. …
If any of the flock attempts to read the bible on their own, make sure you direct them to your interpretation of the scriptures by showing them what it “really” means”.
”The most annoying people are those who keep insisting on sound doctrine and one must guard against this attack at all cost. Your income and reputation are at stake on this one. However, this can be easily overcome through the buzzwords of “Can’t we all just get along? We all love the same Jesus”. Convince the flock that doctrine is divisive and that to love the Lord is all that matters. This works well because they then are the ones labeled as divisive and it questions their spirituality. When this is accomplished, it makes it easy to dismiss what they are saying”.
”Emotionalism is essential for a flock-fleecing ministry. Mimic the most successful fleecers and practice this often until you have it down pat”.
”For a ministry to thrive, money must regularly be fleeced from the flock. Don’t take all of the money at once because it would drain the well dry, and you must be careful to spread it out over a very long time in order to raise your own income”.
“Remember that the corrupt nature of man is to seek after fame and fortune for themselves at the exclusion of others. You can be assured of a following as long as you continue to offer them the possibility of riches and power. Keeping this in mind, continue to appeal to the corrupt nature of man and spiritualize it by suggesting that the things they desire are the same things that God desires for them. Often repeat the phrases such as: “God desires for you to be rich, healthy and happy above everything else.” Avoid people who claim that spiritual maturity is more important in God’s eyes than financial success. Keep your flock from these types. They can be very devastating to your ministry”.
July 19th, 2007 at 2:36 pm
Well Saint, if you actually lived in both close proximity and close relationship with a person you would hear what they said, and see what they do. I will point out that I did not have a problem with theology, but the use of theological qualifications being the defense for heresy, or the measure of preparedness for ministry. I advocated a more holistic approach that values a number of things, not just degrees. Perhaps you haven’t heard of Bishop Spong, he is very qualified academically, but teaches that we need to rid ourselves of our theism if we are to have a future. I believe that Jesus is very clear that fruit is what shows us proper qualifications, and by fruit I don’t mean number of converts or adherents, but the fruit of faithfulness, long suffering, christlikeness, wisdom and knowledge.
The backlash against the academic nature of many traditional churches is based on an idea that actually has some merit, there are many places that stress intelectual qualifications over things like the influence of the Spirit, obedience, and actually life discipleship. If you look into it, the early Pentecostal churches were very working class, but they were also very committed, and very active in their faith. There was an aliveness to what they were doing, it was “powerful” in some way. They were originally called the Pentecostal holiness movement, which was very legalistic in many ways, but actually attempted to do discipleship not just study it. There is little wonder that these people found the dead intelectualism of many of the mainline denominations to be very off putting.
But as I stated before, I am looking at things from a completely different grid, so I guess what you all do with your systems and structures doesn’t really matter to me.
rev
July 19th, 2007 at 2:39 pm
btw saint, what is your problem with me? You seem to pick a fight with me everytime I come on here, is there something in my theology that you find incorrect?
rev
July 19th, 2007 at 3:04 pm
Oh I know Spong Rev, and the problems in the ECUSA started well before Spong. As I have said before on this forum, the ECUSA is a morbid fascination of mine - intrigue, politics, apostasy, femino-nazi-lesbian ministers beating up on orthodox female ministers for daring to have children…you name it, it’s all there. A case study if I ever saw one (with the Canadian Anglicans not far behind). And on that it’s lack of proper education/education divorced from an ecclesial setting(hec you don’t want to ask the majority of the ECUSA about what church is), all polity no theology, all polity no discipline, activism instead of gospel, lack of spiritual formation, letting culture set the agenda etc etc. The Spongs of this world don’t arise overnight from nothing.
I don’t have a problem with you Rev (I believe I addressed the comment ‘Rev et al’ but don’t want to retype this to go back and check). I just note you have a few chips on your shoulder, like this:
Apart from what system or structure you think “we all” (me? everyone else on Signposts? everyone who disagrees with you on something?) are advocating, or whether we are talking “system or structure”.
July 19th, 2007 at 3:10 pm
BTW, whatever Pentes were 100 years go, holiness is not the word I would use to characterize their movement now in most parts of the world.
July 19th, 2007 at 3:10 pm
BTW, whatever Pentes were 100 years go, holiness is not the word I would use to characterize their movement now in most parts of the world. And that’s the sort of fruit by which I judge the movement.
July 19th, 2007 at 3:23 pm
I agree with you.
As to the comment on structures and systems, Janet and Bec both were speaking of hierarchical structures, which I do not practice. I am accepting that if you are going to have that kind of structure then the people would have to have a certain “qualification” in order to maintain that position. In a non hierarchical system, the issues of qualifications don’t matter so much.
As to the chips on my shoulder, if you mean I have certain things that I am very passionate about, yes that is true.
but if you mean this Meaning
Having a harboured grievance or sense of inferiority and being quick to take offence.
Origin
This is reported as originating with the nineteenth century U.S. practise of spoiling for a fight by carrying a chip of wood on one’s shoulder, daring others to knock it off. This has more than the whiff of folk-etymology about it, but in fact it is the actual derivation of this phrase. The two earliest printed citations that refer to chips on shoulders bear this out.
Firstly, in 1830 the New York newspaper The Long Island Telegraph printed this:
“When two churlish boys were determined to fight, a chip would be placed on the shoulder of one, and the other demanded to knock it off at his peril.”
The actual phrase ‘chip on his shoulder’ appears a little later, in the Weekly Oregonian 1855:
“Leland, in his last issue, struts out with a chip on his shoulder, and dares Bush to knock it off.”
Well, then I am not sure I agree. I do believe that we have neglected to practice Jesus’ teachings in many ways, particularly the sermon on the mount. I believe that Jesus came to set up an alternative to the ruling empires. I believe that we are called to be a community of faith, not just a gathering of saints for events. So I will state my beliefs, and defend them in the marketplace of ideas. But I have no insecurity about them, nor am I always spoiling for a fight. I do believe that I am right, I would be rather silly if I thought otherwise.
rev
July 19th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
John Piper on the prosperity gospel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukcV-xtU3hc
July 19th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
john piper is bad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhLCus0tsmw&mode=related&search=
rev
July 19th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
saint,
‘you will do anything, anything, to defend this lot’
As you will do anything to condemn them! As I said, I don’t mind a discussion around doctrine, but personal slurs about things which are not our business are reprehensible.
Do you, then, defend the gossip about where these people live, and whether it’s pertinent for them to have a spa? I notice that there are remarks made on this blog which go unmoderated, which probably suggests commenters moderate amongst themselves, which is OK. As I’ve said to you before, I’d be as defensive of you, as a brother, if someone said something I thought untrue or slanderous, and you weren’t available to answer for yourself. I like to think we’re on the same side, despite any differences we might have.
I also think, and have told you, that you are wrong about many aspects of both Pentecostalism and WoF. I agree there are massive imperfections, but there are those who are attempting to right wrongs from within. There are many who are doing a fantastic and effective job of spreading the gospel from within both camps. You are right about some things, but because of your antagonistic, no-rumour-too-iffy-to-be-used, bombastic approach you tend to disqualify yourself from being able to help bring about change, which is a pity since you are generally a thoughtful and genuine contributor worth listening to. As you recently condescendingly said of me, ‘your heart is right’.
July 19th, 2007 at 4:29 pm
Hi Janet,
It’s not a go this year but I would love to go to a women in leadership conference (don’t qualify for this, would have to sneak in) or one like it in Melbourne or elsewhere some time in this lifetime. I wouldn’t let weather put me off…..Let us know how it goes. All the best with it.
Daisy
July 19th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
facelift, if we are all part of the body, how is what we do with our money different from what we do with our genitals? If Pastor Phil was having an affair, that would be our business would it not? If Pastor Phil was growing marijuana at his home that would be our business wouldn’t it? So how is the style of living not part of our business also? In a world that is consumed with consumerism, in a completely idolatrous way, don’t you think part of the accountability we should extend to one another is actually a challenge to how we spend our money? Ours is a culture that spends enough money on bottled water each year, to instal water purifications systems or provide clean water for everyone on the planet, while millions die of waterborne bacteria and infectious disease. In a world that has such a warped view of riches, and needs shouldn’t we be accountable for our spending? In fact, if you were to judge by the ads, the billboards, the constant bombardment of the progress myth ect, it is quite apparent that the god of this age is mammon, or consumerism, wouldn’t we be right to be concerned with whether or not we are bowing to this false god in the way we live?
I am not trying to be a jerk, I am just saying that I find your belief that its none of our business to be quite wrong, judgement starts in the house of God.
rev
July 19th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
Hey Daisy… it’s for anyone interested in leadership as well as those involved… there are different streams for those involved in different types of ministry… youth, children’s, elders and board members, ministers, women’s ministries, small groups, workplace and pastoral carers.
It may be the only one… because I haven’t run a “leaders only” conference like this before and it could be a cataclysmic flop! But if all goes well… maybe I’ll see you next year!!!!!
July 19th, 2007 at 5:47 pm
very much with you on 821 Rev
on the theology thingy though .. not wanting to pick a fight but for my 2cents worth….
i think you see the acedemics as the ones to be weary of but
the crap acedemics are going to be best countered by good acedemics methinks
and the anti intellectualism of the pente church is not a good thing, they have eschewed rigorus thinking and are now so out of touch with the absolute basics of Christianity they are happy to fall for the neo paganism of the Hillsong variety or CCC.
over intellectualising Christianity at the loss of someone’s acting in accordance with the ideal of being a true disciple of Christ would of course not be advantageous .. but this is not the Pente problem .. they have gone so far down the opposite direction its not funny anymore.
CS Lewis had a great illustration in the Screwtape letters
July 19th, 2007 at 5:52 pm
the rev,
‘how is what we do with our money different from what we do with our genitals?’
Just be careful about the way you use parking meters!
God forbid that I should ever be given the task of judging whether anyone is setting up house the right way or not. Judgement begins at the household of God. True, but who is the judge? And that’s the holuslehold of God, not a neighbours house. Isn;t it coming cllose to coventousness to judge someone for happening to be in an area which is increasing in value?
We scraped the money for a deposit, living in a caravan as caretakers in a scrap metal yard for a year to save, bought a flood damaged house in a, then, low income area, which we gradually did up, and made into a home. That area has since tripled in value and become fashionable. What does a person do? Oooh! Can’t live there anymore, people might think we’re prospering or something. Better sell up and live in a tent. Well we did sell up, but not because we were ashamed of being blessed, just to downsize, moving into a different area, which has since doubled in value. What do we do, oh wise one? Prosperity follows us! Was it easy. Nope, we worked and scrimped and saved and painted and cleaned and scrubbed away six inches of mud, and slowly improved the home. So judge us, as others, for being blessed! I grew up in a very poor family in a poor area, and we were contented then, and my family is contented now. I am blessed by the commitment of my parents for working to feed, clothe and shelter us. They are legends. All their children have been blessed. Isn’t that what they, you, we want for our children? An inheritance? I’m not talking about greed. I’m talking about basic life necessities and the way in which God is prepared to bless us when we flow with his ways and obey his word.
So, then, about those people who are struggling to find water, basic health needs met and other thjngs you mentioned? I agree we must help, and we do, because we are in a position to do so, because God blesses us, and we don’t have to sell our home to assist others. I won’t tell you what we do because it’s our business, and I won’t even mention things known by others around us, because people like saint have a habit of missing what you’re saying and coming down on people for telling others how we distribute our time and money, how we minister, how we let works demonstrate our faith.
And I have heard of some of the things ministers criticised in these threads are doing, which I’m not permitted to reveal because they are doing them pretty well in secret, and I’m only privy to this information because I’m close to some of the people who work ion missions outreaches funded and resourced by them, and they continue to bless the poor and the hurting and the broken, but without declaring it aloud. Some people would be ashamed of themselves if they knew, after what they have said about them. As you say, judgement begins at the household of God, including in what we say, based on what we contrive to know, or think we know about them. But who really knows but God?
Why wouldn’t the Pringles live reasonably near their church? Actually closer to the old Brookvale church isn’t it? So wherever they live in that area they’re doing better than the average slum-dweller in Jakarta or Manila, as are most Australians, no matter what our income strata. Australia is a blessed country.
So judge away, but remember that when you judge you are being judged for your judgement. In fact, Jesus advises us not to judge, because we will surely be judged!
July 19th, 2007 at 7:00 pm
abtruth,
‘the anti intellectualism of the pente church is not a good thing, they have eschewed rigorus thinking and are now so out of touch with the absolute basics of Christianity’
That is an unitellectual argument if I may say so. What makes for intellectualism, by the way? Academic ability? Intelligence? IQ? Isn’t it enough for the average intelligence Christian to read and study and apply the Word of God to his or her life to best of their ability, relative to their circumstances, and depending on a number of factors, including economy, geographical location, type and quality of ministry available in their immediate area, vocation, family situation and dependencies, etc, etc.
I’ve just returned from a support ministry trip to a desert region where a community is experiencing rapid church growth. The people leading this group have no formal training. They just love the Lord, read their Bible and share what they know. There was no church on the community so they were sent ministry DVD’s from our church which neighbours came to watch, and it took off from there. The people they are ministering to are tribes people mostly with very little education.
Amazingly miracles take place in this environment which bring tears to your eyes and a smile to your face. They are being supported and given on the job training, but what would you do? Take them out for two years and send them to seminary, then send them back to…what? Send in a theologically trained minister? Or let them grow in the Word as they minister, maintain constant contact, support systems and resources? The Church really has to be fluid, not rigid.
July 19th, 2007 at 7:05 pm
Listen, I thought I explained myself very well, and did not deserve the tone that you threw at me, I was explaining that is very well is our business to judge things. What I did not say was how to judge or what is appropriate. I was only reacting to your statement that it is none of our business.
Now, what could I do in a similiar circumstance? I could have sold the house and bought another crap house in a poorer suburb and used the excess to maybe buy another house and rent it out to poor people at a very low rate, to allow them to save up to buy a home, or use it to house long term unemployed people, or to set up a home for unwed mothers, or even used the money to fund an orphanage in a third world country. Now, why would I do this? Because this is what I believe Jesus would have us all do. And the fact is, if we all did this, if all of Gods children would do this we could go very far towards ending poverty, and truly being a light set on a hill.
Now, I do not blame you or judge you for your choices, but the minute you say these issues are none of the body of Christ business, you cut yourself off from the prophetic life of Gods family. And when you do not submit yourself to contrary and hard teachings you run the risk of being those that run after teachings that sooth your own flesh rather than wrestle with what it means to sacrificially follow Jesus.
rev
July 19th, 2007 at 7:12 pm
27but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise…
26-31Take a good look, friends, at who you were when you got called into this life. I don’t see many of “the brightest and the best” among you, not many influential, not many from high-society families. Isn’t it obvious that God deliberately chose men and women that the culture overlooks and exploits and abuses, chose these “nobodies” to expose the hollow pretensions of the “somebodies”? That makes it quite clear that none of you can get by with blowing your own horn before God. Everything that we have—right thinking and right living, a clean slate and a fresh start—comes from God by way of Jesus Christ.
July 19th, 2007 at 7:13 pm
if only the pente church would do that!
alas they do not… they are not without intelligence but refuse or even consider it unspiritual to take an intellectual approach to many aspects of their faith
July 19th, 2007 at 7:28 pm
abtruth,
I have to say that is not my experience. I find Pentecostals I know in the city I live in from all streams are very keen to know scripture and apply it, at least as much as evangelicals I mix with.
Respectfully, I wasn’t out out shout you, down rev. Sorry if the tone seemed stronger than I intended. I have said often, judge the doctrine, and the antics, but let people have a spa if they want to. If they are in open sin and not being cautioned by peers or oversight, then yes, warn them, and warn others if they refuse to repent.
By the way, it wouldn’t be financially viable or practical to do what you suggested about the house, since you’d have to maintain mortgage payments for each house, but I get your point and know people who are working towards this. I have to go somewhere, but I’d love top keep this conversation alive at a later date.
July 19th, 2007 at 7:30 pm
further facelift
there have been many sad cases of South American evangelical converts being given theological training by liberal theological colledges in the US then returning home to preach extreme left wing theological and sometimes political ideologies.
do they need another evangelist? no .. those who have been duped by bad theology need good theology (therefore theologians) capable of showing the lie for a lie and firming up the foundation of those who would otherwise fall for something that looks like the truth…
hence the pentes need some good thinkers/theologians/intellectuals
July 19th, 2007 at 7:36 pm
let me tell you facelift that is my experience 100 %
to the extent that if you are intellectually inclined or concerned about good theology you are sidlined betrayed and bagged out to your friends
July 19th, 2007 at 9:33 pm
“hence the pentes need some good thinkers/theologians/intellectuals”
With the courage to speak out to their peers!
July 19th, 2007 at 9:34 pm
I believe that I made a point about doctrine. You know how it goes, build your house on sand…
Also I think Rev is right to say our lives our our business and that judgment begins with the house of God. However unlike him I don’t begrudge someone having a spa or eating cheese or whether you’ve done well with capital gains in the assets market. I’ve met materially poor people who are more obsessive about mammon then materially rich people. To be rich in Christ has nothing to do with material riches, however one’s attitude to material riches can indicate one’s attitude to Christ. Judge each case on its merits.
July 19th, 2007 at 10:00 pm
I can recount many stories that demonstrate the ‘anti-intellectual’ streak in pente circles - from a woman being told by a pastor she did not belong in the AOG because she was too intellectual to a young man being scorned, belittled and told ‘what do you think you are, a theologian’ by a CCC pastor when he wanted to discuss a few questions he had about what was being taught from the pulpit vis-a-vis some other stuff he had read.
Heh, on the other hand one can do as one Baptist has done. Not.
July 19th, 2007 at 11:14 pm
I guess, saint and abtruth, it would be a good idea to qualify what you mean by theology and intellectualism. A person is either highly intelligent, average or simple. I don’t see that God differentiates between them, except to reveal a tendency for intellectuals to be proud and hard of heart if not careful. However, you can’t change how bright you are, but you can always gain knowledge through reading, study and application.
I think it behoves every believer to gain as much Biblical and theological insight as possible, and that we could all spend more time developing doctrinally, even using a number of study aids from different viewpoints. I don’t think I’m a rarity in this as a Pentecostal.
There are study aids which deny some aspects of what I believe to be true, in which case the onus is on me, then, to either accept that I have it wrong and change, or demonstrate that the person challenging my belief is either wrong or misinformed. The bottom line has always to be that it complies with the Word of God. I am clear on the point that our spiritual life is a constant journey which involves adjustments, including the understanding of scripture and the application. Hence the need for sound foundations, but an openness to the admonition of others.
When we think we’ve got it all sussed and there’s nothing more we can learn from others we are positioning ourselves for a fall. I enjoy fellowship with people from other denominations and streams because they often refresh and sometimes challenge the movement I’m most familiar with. I don’t feel threatened by this. I’d like to get it right as much as you would.
There are always ministries and ministers who are inflexible and unteachable, and worse, with it, in error, and they come from every stream. I’m sorry, abtruth that your intellect was frowned upon. It demonstrates a degree of insecurity on behalf of your, then, leadership. We have people in our church who are bright thinkers and intellectually large, and sometimes see things differently to the leadership team. Like everyone, they need to have a voice and to be able to politely challenge the leadership without fear of reprisal or censure, although, like all things, it should be done quietly, with respect and decently and in order.
Having intellectuals on board should be an enhancement to a ministry, not a threat. If there is a possibility of a split or a schism then things need to be handled with wisdom, but as long as all parties have a part to contribute I don’t see a problem with different approaches and ideas amongst brethren. Diversity in union can and should be a strength to a church.
July 19th, 2007 at 11:32 pm
I don’t think it is about who is being more intellectual or intelligent or theologent (TM) (there I invented another word Saint and yes before you ask it is trademarked) it is more to do with how much discernment is employed and you don’t need to be a mental giant to do that.
http://nakedpastor.com/archives/1203
http://nakedpastor.com/archives/1199
July 19th, 2007 at 11:38 pm
Oh, awright then Veritas. I’ll leave that one just for you
(cracked up at the July 5 cartoon)
July 20th, 2007 at 12:00 am
Talking about intellectuals or theologents here is a definition of intellectual by James Sire - stole it from Tom on a very sad and sombre post at his site at http://christianmind.blogspot.com/2007/07/take-care-bud.html.
“An intellectual is one who loves ideas, is dedicated to clarifying them, developing them, criticizing them, turning them over and over, seeing their implications, stacking them atop one another, arranging them, sitting silent while new ideas pop up and old ones seem to rearrange themselves, playing with them, punning with their terminology, laughing at them, watching them clash, picking up the pieces, starting over, judging them, withholding judgment about them, changing them, bringing them into contact with their counterparts in other systems of thought, inviting them to dine and have a ball but also suiting them for service in workaday life.
A Christian intellectual is all of the above to the glory of God (27-28).” Habits of the Mind: Intellectual Life as a Christian Calling,
July 20th, 2007 at 12:14 am
Great quote. And a profound and moving post at A Christian Mind. That group of men sounds like a true band of brothers. Rest in peace, Peter Phillips.
July 20th, 2007 at 1:03 am
Saint, I do not believe that just being poor means you are virtuous or free from materialism. But I do not believe that you can have all your stuff, and still be free from it in your heart, in a world that is besought with poverty. Please do not take me as such a simpleton, I am well aware of the overwhelming lure of consumerism to those of every tax bracket. But if you have enough money to spend without really considering it, is that less of a sin? Is not what we have to be submitted to Christ’s lordship as well as what we think? Not in a legalistic fashion, as I enjoy a steak now and then, as well as a good cigar once a year or so, but as a general way of life. Not a hard and fast rule but a general downwardly mobile direction, with the goal of submitting all that we are and have to Christ.
rev