The Official Handbook “How to Fleece For Fun & Profit”
In the tradition of “Amway and the Contemporary Church”
Comes the “Official Handbook of How to Fleece the Flock for Fun and Profit”
©2002 OAIM
Lionfish’s Hot Picks:
”If anyone challenges you as a prophet of God, remind them of the verse that says “touch not the anointed of God” and of the consequences of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
”Discourage the flock from reading the Bible for themselves. Remind them often of how the Holy Spirit spoke to you and this reduces the need for study of the Bible because you have knowledge that supercedes the Bible. Don’t forget to inject a verse here and there so they will be convinced that this is from God. Choose obscure verses so the flock doesn’t realize that they have nothing to do with what you are saying. …
If any of the flock attempts to read the bible on their own, make sure you direct them to your interpretation of the scriptures by showing them what it “really” means”.
”The most annoying people are those who keep insisting on sound doctrine and one must guard against this attack at all cost. Your income and reputation are at stake on this one. However, this can be easily overcome through the buzzwords of “Can’t we all just get along? We all love the same Jesus”. Convince the flock that doctrine is divisive and that to love the Lord is all that matters. This works well because they then are the ones labeled as divisive and it questions their spirituality. When this is accomplished, it makes it easy to dismiss what they are saying”.
”Emotionalism is essential for a flock-fleecing ministry. Mimic the most successful fleecers and practice this often until you have it down pat”.
”For a ministry to thrive, money must regularly be fleeced from the flock. Don’t take all of the money at once because it would drain the well dry, and you must be careful to spread it out over a very long time in order to raise your own income”.
“Remember that the corrupt nature of man is to seek after fame and fortune for themselves at the exclusion of others. You can be assured of a following as long as you continue to offer them the possibility of riches and power. Keeping this in mind, continue to appeal to the corrupt nature of man and spiritualize it by suggesting that the things they desire are the same things that God desires for them. Often repeat the phrases such as: “God desires for you to be rich, healthy and happy above everything else.” Avoid people who claim that spiritual maturity is more important in God’s eyes than financial success. Keep your flock from these types. They can be very devastating to your ministry”.
July 20th, 2007 at 2:02 am
Sorry Rev but I do believe you set yourself up as more virtuous by constantly referring to what YOU would do, for example:
Well good for you.
Leaving aside that even the poor need to be redeemed and reconciled with God, someone else might keep their house and help someone get a job, or upgrade their skills to get a better job or employ the person themselves. Or they might discern someone needs some help with doing a budget. Or give them a no interest loan to help start a small business. Or just a gift of something to meet an immediate need. Or help with transport. Or someone might even have a go at the sort of people who created the mindset and structural problems that result in poverty (what do you think the story about the widow’s mite is really about? Perhaps that the Pharisees had created such an oppressive system of tithing that even a widow, who should have been supported by her religious community, leaves herself destitute????) Hec someone might discern the real problem God is speaking to a person about may have something to do with family relations, wife beating, not disciplining a kid…who is to say that what YOU would do is better or indicates less attachment to material things much less what God wants to do here and now in someone’s life. And just because materialism is a problem in the west does not mean every one suffers from it to the same, greater or lesser degree. And just because it has been a real issue in your life doesn’t mean it is for everyone else. And if you were deadly serious about tackling poverty on a large scale, you would not be growing vegetables and riding bikes.
That should give you plenty of fodder.
July 20th, 2007 at 9:06 am
My husband and I definitely suffer from an attachment to things when it comes to anything bike-related.
I hope that anyone who’s growing vegies is doing so with heirloom seeds…
July 20th, 2007 at 11:12 am
Bec
I thought the problem for you a few weeks ago was your lack of attachment to your bike
Cheers
MN
July 20th, 2007 at 11:44 am
muhahahahahahhaa…
Well, I’m now back on it…and it’s amazing all the gear you suddenly NEED when the cold weather hits!
July 20th, 2007 at 3:03 pm
those are all wonderful ideas Saint, and I have actually done some of them, starting a couple of companies that provided employment for long term unempolyed people, giving people skills for getting jobs, helping to teach people the local language so they can pursue and education that will help them get meaningful employment ect. These are all great ideas. None of them say however that I should keep my money tied up in long term investment strategies for my own benefit. None of them Christianize consumerism, and its inherent idolatries.
I believe the fundamental purpose of all of the body of Christ is to extend Gods kingdom, which absolutely includes the making of disciples and the calling others to relationship with Christ. Poor and rich alike must bow their knee to Christ, but their discipleship journeys will be different as their starting points are different. For many of my friends the starting point was breaking free from the bondage of drugs or alcohol, but for some of our more fortunate friends it might be learning to be generous outside of their own families.
As to your comment on bikes and growing veggies, I hardly see how living in a less consumptive, and more sustainable and healthy way of life is in any way stopping any of these other things from happening. Perhaps you can explain how me riding my bike to the Cave which takes about 15 minutes, is somehow keeping me from doing more important things? How is the saving 5 minutes, remaining stationary, contributing to green house gasses, and spending my money on petrol, any more beneficial for the poor?
Again, it just seems like you want to disagree just to be disagreeable.
rev
July 20th, 2007 at 3:59 pm
Oh and Saint I am not poor, I am living simply but far from poor, I am on a downward track however, as I realize that what the world tells me I need, is far from the truth.
rev
July 20th, 2007 at 8:32 pm
Good for you Rev. I am not sure how long term investment strategies got in there but I am sure your delightful children will help out when you are older. And last time I looked, you can’t “Christianize” and “ism”
July 20th, 2007 at 8:37 pm
..an “ism”.
July 20th, 2007 at 9:17 pm
abtruth,
‘there have been many sad cases of South American evangelical converts being given theological training by liberal theological colledges in the US then returning home to preach extreme left wing theological and sometimes political ideologies.’
Do you think God might be calling you to these places to help these poor untaught people find the truth?
‘the pentes need some good thinkers/theologians/intellectuals’
I think there are some good thinkers/theologians/intellectuals amongst Pentecostal ranks, but supposing you’re in any way right, maybe some of the evangelical thinkers/theologians/intellectuals might actually take the time to understand in more depth some of the things Pentecostals are engaged in which evangelical thinkers/theologians/intellectuals are not, trough decent dialogue and discussion, then we could have a rip-roaring time winning souls and making disciples together instead of tearing one another apart over doctrine.
July 20th, 2007 at 9:19 pm
Oh yes you can
rev
July 20th, 2007 at 10:02 pm
FaceLift, you said:
“I think there are some good thinkers/theologians/intellectuals amongst Pentecostal ranks, but supposing you’re in any way right, maybe some of the evangelical thinkers/theologians/intellectuals might actually take the time to understand in more depth some of the things Pentecostals are engaged in which evangelical thinkers/theologians/intellectuals are not, trough decent dialogue and discussion, then we could have a rip-roaring time winning souls and making disciples together instead of tearing one another apart over doctrine.”
I don’t see pentacostals actually having a decent go at a doctinal debate.
The usual responses are:
“So you think God wants us to be poor?” : when defending prosperity teaching
“So you believe that spiritual gifts ended with the apostles?” : when defending Benny Hinn et al.
That’s pretty much it. Of course, evangelicals aren’t saying those things, but pentes accuse us of saying these things and build up this straw man argument.
You also seem to be saying that doctrine isn’t important. Do you think that doctrine is important FaceLift?
I have, in the past, compared Benny Hinn to Simon the Sorcerer … or Paul Daniels (the British illusionist) … I think that may be an unjust comparison, only because Benny might actually have convinced himself that he is semi-divine.
I am starting to rant now. This is not good. Think I’ll go and get another coffee and get more agitated.
July 20th, 2007 at 10:37 pm
#850 Good for you again Rev. Have fun trying.
July 20th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
#850 Good for you again Rev. Have fun trying.
Could you maybe start with Marxism because it sure ain’t dead…er…Christianized yet. Might as well throw in Maoism while you’re at it. That hasn’t had a good track record with poverty or freedom either. While you’re at it, Islamism need some urgent attention…there’s a killer bee out there which should be an easy first project for Christianizing. And then could we try post-modernism and perhaps even ecumenism - just personal bug-bears of mine but am sure you would be happy to oblige me. Thanks.
July 20th, 2007 at 10:44 pm
Well apparently you just want to fight, you know exactly what I mean
have a good night
rev
July 20th, 2007 at 10:49 pm
“I think there are some good thinkers/theologians/intellectuals amongst Pentecostal ranks”
Just for fun I had a bit of a search on Google and came up with several zillion hits… yes, it looks like there are some Pentecostal theologians out there doing good stuff overseas… small sample…
http://religion.leeuniversity.edu/faculty/cross.asp
http://www.templeton.org/humble_approach_initiative/Pneumatology/participants/index.html
http://www.regent.edu/acad/schdiv/academics/phd/faculty.shtml
I think Australia’s a long way behind however… seems a bit of a lingering “you don’t need good theology, you just need the Holy Spirit” around here.
Call me old fashioned… I actually believe having both is the ideal!!!
In my web searching, I stumbled across the Sydney College of Divinity website. Call me naughty, but I couldn’t help but think the staff of there could do with a makeover… or at least a better photographer.
http://www.scd.edu.au/WebPages/AboutUs/scd_office.htm
July 20th, 2007 at 11:27 pm
Bull, I don’t think theology is about defending Benny Hinn in particular! There’s a difference between speaking to someone who can answer from scripture and someone who is defensive of their position. I could give you a far better reason for teaching prosperity than that, and I’m no intellectual. From the same Bible I could defend poverty doctrine also. Everything’s relative to a student’s viewpoint. Surely good theology is neither defensive or aggressive, but open minded and willing to apply truth’s learned. A mere study of prosperity and blessing in the Book of Genesis would be very beneficial to you. Then work your way through the Old Testament into the New. You’ll be surprised at what you discover.
I wouldn’t have to cite Benny Hinn or any other TV evangelist to give reasons for the gifts and graces of the Holy Spirit today. Most commentaries claim that the gifts have ended, but have no substantial Biblical evidence for this. I consider this week theology. I don’t think Benny, bless his heart, qualifies for what people here would consider a renowned theologian, nor does he claim to be, but, as Janet has aptly illustrated, there are good Pentecostal thinkers around.
There seems to be a lack of knowledge of even existing, standard Pentecostal thinking by those who are opposed here..
July 21st, 2007 at 12:05 am
Actually Rev I stand by what I said. I really would like to know how you Christianise an ‘ism’.
July 21st, 2007 at 12:06 am
What about Christianizing atheism?
July 21st, 2007 at 9:06 am
Well Saint, it appears that Spong is doing just that isn’t he? Putting Christian language to non theism.
Or the putting of Christian symbols, and products to create a Christian version of consumerism.
By the use of Christian language, symbol, product, ect. we try to prop up some “ism” as being a Christian thing. And the language is used all the time, Christian activism, Christian conservatism, Christian being a word that has become bereft of true meaning, becomes just a style that can be attributed to anything.
Now if you arguement is that this actually doesn’t make a thing “Christian” then I agree completely, but that is not what I was talking about, and you know it. In fact if you read my posts for what they are, instead of trying to fight with me, you would see that I used the word Christianize, in a negative way, to describe how people are trying to make a completely unCHristian thing seem CHristian.
rev
July 21st, 2007 at 9:29 am
“Most commentaries claim that the gifts have ended”
Some do some don’t… I’m not sure this view is as common as you make out… I’ve never heard it promoted where I study.
In overview… my understanding is the Old Testament is mostly a description of the covenant of the Lord with Israel… the people of Israel were to be obedient to God’s Law, and they would experience agricultural abundance and success in war. If they were disobedient the rain would not come, the crops would fail, and they would be conquered in war. Read Deuteronomy… it was a “time and place” kind of covenant.
The New Testament is a new covenant… we are promised spiritual riches in Christ Jesus, reward in heaven, and basic provision of necessities “Give us this day our daily bread.” Confusing these two covenants (e.g. quoting a verse from a Psalm and claiming this is one of “God’s Promises to Christians”) is a pretty glaring theological error… it confuses the two covenants… I see no promise in the New Testament that your crops will not fail if you follow Jesus. (”My Kingdom is not of this world”)
The new covenant sets us free from the Law. Legalistic teaching on giving (”if you don’t tithe your gross income your finances are under a curse, if you do and give even more you’ll become rich in this life”) is another glaring misinterpretation of the gospel of grace… there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. Reputable theologians have debunked this idea in a way that noone has seriously answered.
This is one of the reasons why I affirm that in the traditional model of pastor-teacher centred church, some theological expertise matters! They are in an authority position where they can lead a lot of people astray.
There are well accepted methods of biblical interpretation… these do not permit us to defend almost anything… prosperity theology or poverty theology (whatever that is) or whatever pet interpretations of scripture we have.
“tearing one another apart over doctrine.”
That is truly not my intent at all. I love my Pentecostal friends, and think the charismatic movement is a wonderful gift to the wider church. Prosperity doctrine is a relatively new idea in Pentecostalism (which as the Rev has stated, began as a holiness movement)… I think this doctrine diverts from the main game deserves to be challenged constructively.
July 21st, 2007 at 10:40 am
Interesting assessment, Janet, which is why I advised Bull to read through Genesis first on prosperity and blessing, because it predates the Law of Moses, on which much of what you raised is based. In fact, Genesis gives God’s original intentions for people, to multiply, to have dominion over the earth to subdue it and replenish it, ie produce crops, farm, nurture, cultivate, harvest; and gives us the Promise made to Abraham, which certainly includes blessing, in that all the families/nations of the earth would be blessed in him, and more significantly in his Seed, who is Christ, which brings us into the present.
Israel, of course, comes after Abraham. The NT tells us that those who are of faith are the children of the promise made to Abraham, and, that multiplying, God would multiply, and blessing He would bless, again, bringing it all into our era.
When you limit prosperity and blessing to the spirit alone you miss the fact that God is interested in the whole person, spirit, soul and body, and he is interested in our time spent in the earth. He says that participation in the divine nature includes all things which pertain to life and godliness, which indicates more than spiritual blessing, since our life consists of more than the spirit, but includes the soul, and the body, and partnership with the divine nature gives access to exceedingly great and precious promises aforementioned.
I have already said on another thread that our church doesn’t teach that tithing is of the Law or compulsory, since the Mosaic Law is superseded, but we do teach purposed giving that is of faith, and that tithing and firstfruits offerings would be a precedent set which gives direction for sound practice in honouring God, not out of compulsion, nor of necessity, but with a cheerful attitude. I think there’s room for dialogue by both camps here.
July 21st, 2007 at 10:41 am
Stepping in to the Rev / Saint debate (which mostly seems to be about semantics) I think that syncretism is nothing new… I’ve been to the Philippines where in some places it appears there’s been a veneer of Roman Catholicism overlaying folk religion… it’s like Jesus and Mary are one more of the spirits influencing life who need to be worshipped and appeased. (That’s not true everywhere… more of a rural phenomenon in my understanding). Efforts in evangelism in India have sometimes been blighted with the same phenomenon… people may appear to “accept Jesus”… but what they may really be doing is accepting one more god among the thousands of gods… not renouncing all other gods to follow Jesus as Lord. The Rev might call it “Christianizing Hinduism” and Saint might call it something else… but whatever it’s called, it’s not biblical Christianity.
I think what the Rev is trying to say is when the deepest value of a group is safety, and material comfort, and things, and the importance of a “successful career”, and money… and a layer of Christianity is applied over the top of this without challenging the core values… it’s just another form of syncretism… the “sophisticated” Western form, not the “unsophisticated” animist form.
Because the gospel is about freedom to live by the Spirit I think we need to be careful about judging others, while being discerning that when Jesus said “you cannot serve two masters… you cannot serve both God and money” he meant it…
I think an uneasy blend of trusting in money and trusting in God is a strong force in the Western church (dang it, a strong force in me too) and it does need to be challenged. Prosperity doctrine takes it even a step further… it can baptise consumerism and calls it proof of godliness and God’s blessing.
Is that what you mean Rev?
July 21st, 2007 at 10:52 am
that decent dialogue and discussion though is over issues of core doctrine which are fundamentaly irreconcilable between orthodoxy and the pente’s latter foray into neo paganism with Christian language.
Postmodern language games turning Christianity into something opposed to its original message is rife and dangerous.
Taking one aspect of Gods nature and emphasising it is at the detriment to a true understanding of who God is and who WE are under him, and leads to a distorted view of Christianity which eventually becomes non-Christianity…
Janet
well said
July 21st, 2007 at 11:06 am
Which orthodoxy would that be, abtruth? Roman Catholic, Greek, Anglican? Constantine’s council? And which paganist practices are you referring to? Human sacrifice, orgies, drunkenness? Haven’t seen those at a Pentecostal church!
I think you’re being an obstructionist.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:13 am
Facelift.
Definitely Lutheran. weare the True Church.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:18 am
well i would say the orthodoxy we find in the major confessions. including the westminster catechism. being careful to discern between non essentials (ie toungues) and essentials (ie God’s soverignty)
as for pagan rituals… (remember i said neopagan)
you mention human sacrifice… get away from the actual murder of someone and look at the core doctrine of such a belief..
if we do this…….. then God will do this……..
if we do this .. sacrifice a virgin.. then God will bless our crops
if we do this .. tithe/speak out in faith/name it a claim it/show our reciept to God (ala Joyce Meyer) then God will bless us with health/prosperity/our own desires..
in other words .. we have the power to move Gods hand and thus trampling the idea of God’s soverignty
so there ya go FL
neo paganism in the so called “Christian” church
July 21st, 2007 at 11:28 am
That’s a bit iffy, abtruth.
Try Colossians 1:23. Have to go out. Will continue later.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:29 am
Facelift, what I think you are missing is that the current blight of consumerism does not give us happiness, or health. You cannot read Genesis, and put modern ideas of wealth and prosperity onto them. What our lust for wealth in this lifetime does is it prevents others from having wealth, and props up a system that is unsustainable, and a destructive force in the world. So what I propose is not a poverty mentality, but rather a mentality that says I will only be truly happy and healthy and prosperous when I can be that with all of the world, which is my neighbor. My health and wealth is tied up with the health and wealth of others. So far from thinking poverty is a good thing, I believe that when we all begin to live in a reasonable and sustainable fashion, and adopt a politic of non violence that includes economic and ecological peace, as well as military peace, we will all be “blessed”. What prosperity teaching does, is it preaches a gospel that is actually not good news for most people. A teaching that further victimizes the oppressed, as now they are not just poor, and sick, but they are poor and sick because of some lack in their own faith or righteousness. The teaching of prosperity gospel is that if you have enough faith, and are a good enough Christian you will have lots of money, and possessions. This encourages those with money to spend it on themselves, and victimizes others as not being good enough Christians and therefore deserving their poverty, which in turn allows us to feel good about not caring for them. Of course this is not stated this plainly, and the reason it is not stated so plainly, is that we can see quite clearly that it is a lie.
rev
July 21st, 2007 at 11:30 am
Oh, and yes Janet, that is a good summation of my point of view.
Apparently I was not as clear as I perceived myself to be.
rev
July 21st, 2007 at 2:57 pm
23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
hmmmmmm
do the pentes establish a foundation that is firm and faithful.. do they proclaim the gospel of Christ??? what is the Gospel that they actually preach? Paul is talking about the true Gospel
my contention is that this Gospel is not being preached… it is a false Gospel more akin to neo paganism
remember
2 Timothy 3:6
6They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires,
2 Peter 2:18
18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error.
2 Peter 2:3
3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
lets not leave out 2 Corinthions 11
2I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those “super-apostles.” 6I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way. …….12And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
and of course lets not leave out Galations… any talk of false gospel is not complete without someone being told to castrate themselves
6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Galations 2
14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
you see one of the problems with even the apostle Peter was that he was going back to Judaistic practices … so can the Christian church today abandon the gospel and become Neo pagan.. of course
but lets continue
galations 4
8Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.
yes the true church can lose its way
galations 5
7You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? 8That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9″A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” 10I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be.
and of course the warning to those teachers who preach mammon.. the words of Christ
Luke 17
1Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. 2It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. 3So watch yourselves.