The Official Handbook “How to Fleece For Fun & Profit”
In the tradition of “Amway and the Contemporary Church”
Comes the “Official Handbook of How to Fleece the Flock for Fun and Profit”
©2002 OAIM
Lionfish’s Hot Picks:
”If anyone challenges you as a prophet of God, remind them of the verse that says “touch not the anointed of God” and of the consequences of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
”Discourage the flock from reading the Bible for themselves. Remind them often of how the Holy Spirit spoke to you and this reduces the need for study of the Bible because you have knowledge that supercedes the Bible. Don’t forget to inject a verse here and there so they will be convinced that this is from God. Choose obscure verses so the flock doesn’t realize that they have nothing to do with what you are saying. …
If any of the flock attempts to read the bible on their own, make sure you direct them to your interpretation of the scriptures by showing them what it “really” means”.
”The most annoying people are those who keep insisting on sound doctrine and one must guard against this attack at all cost. Your income and reputation are at stake on this one. However, this can be easily overcome through the buzzwords of “Can’t we all just get along? We all love the same Jesus”. Convince the flock that doctrine is divisive and that to love the Lord is all that matters. This works well because they then are the ones labeled as divisive and it questions their spirituality. When this is accomplished, it makes it easy to dismiss what they are saying”.
”Emotionalism is essential for a flock-fleecing ministry. Mimic the most successful fleecers and practice this often until you have it down pat”.
”For a ministry to thrive, money must regularly be fleeced from the flock. Don’t take all of the money at once because it would drain the well dry, and you must be careful to spread it out over a very long time in order to raise your own income”.
“Remember that the corrupt nature of man is to seek after fame and fortune for themselves at the exclusion of others. You can be assured of a following as long as you continue to offer them the possibility of riches and power. Keeping this in mind, continue to appeal to the corrupt nature of man and spiritualize it by suggesting that the things they desire are the same things that God desires for them. Often repeat the phrases such as: “God desires for you to be rich, healthy and happy above everything else.” Avoid people who claim that spiritual maturity is more important in God’s eyes than financial success. Keep your flock from these types. They can be very devastating to your ministry”.
July 21st, 2007 at 3:33 pm
and as for “iffy”
i think it is ‘iffy’ if you really want it to be.
to me on the logic of my argument i would contend that there is a direct correlation between the two examples that confirms my accusation beyond reasonable doubt.
in this instance you would not be held to be a reasonable person to make jusdgement as you have obvious emotional and otherwise investments in the outcome of the discussion.. your bias will sway your objective ability.
July 21st, 2007 at 5:07 pm
Well, anyone can dig out all the scriptures which refer to false teachers and apostles and aim them at people they disagree with. What kind of evidence is that? That’s been going on for centuries. I could aim the same verses at people who refuse to believe that God heals today, or that God wants us all to live in poverty to show our holiness.
Certainly the Galatians verses you threw at us Pentecostals en mass are actually directed at Judaisers, who crept into the Galatian church to attempt to turn them back to the Law and ceremonies of Moses, so now who’s getting scripture out of context? Shame on you, abtruth (just kidding, as I was with the ‘iffy’ thing)!
The Galatian church was in danger of being drawn back into the bondage of the law and away from the liberty of faith and the Spirit. Read it again. How did those miracles take place in their midst? Was it by the Law, or by the working of the Holy Spirit and by the preaching of faith? Context. Context.
You asked, ‘do the pentes establish a foundation that is firm and faithful.. do they proclaim the gospel of Christ??? what is the Gospel that they actually preach? Paul is talking about the true Gospel.’
How nasty, untrue and unkind is that? I put it to you that you don’t know much about Pentecostal foundational teaching. Your weakness is your biased opinion getting in the way of sound judgement and a just tongue. Your frustration is your inability to do as much about it as you want to. Have you ever wondered if it might be because you are so out of touch with what God is doing amongst many Pentecostal churches in areas you actually don’t know much about? You make assumptions based on one word: ‘Pentecostal’!
You don’t have a clue what we teach in our church, as foundational truths or as meat, or who our leadership is, yet you declare unwaveringly that we sit under false teachers and apostles simply because you have a bad attitude about Pentecostalism. You aim ‘false’ and ‘deceiver’ at us without evidence. then you have the effrontery to say you can’t give evidence because I’m too close to it emotionally and it wouldn’t do any good. How proud is that? Try me! I’m not as soft or as brain-washed or brain-dead as you obviously think. I invite discussion and you bandy insults.
Actually Paul was telling the Corinthians that they need to be aware of those whose pride is so thick in their self-importance that they deny the foolish, and the base, and the despised, and then those false apostles deny Paul’s apostleship because he isn’t as good and orator or an expositor, or as hermeneutically sound as they claim to be, or hasn’t gone through so many hardships and had so many victories, as if holiness and faith were measured in intelligence, or credentials, or scars or credits and applause from men, or in knowledge or ability.
But the measure of a Christian is his or her love for the brethren, and is weighed against the power of the cross and the blood of Jesus, not in personal achievements. And, of course, God chooses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise. Context!
July 21st, 2007 at 6:17 pm
feel free to address my post.
rev
July 21st, 2007 at 7:54 pm
Hi Face Lift:
Re: “The Galatian church was in danger of being drawn back into the bondage of the law and away from the liberty of faith and the Spirit. Read it again”.
The Pentecostals try to bring people back into the law by their obligatory tithe teaching - thus killing the liberty of faith and Spirit.
July 21st, 2007 at 10:39 pm
not so lionfish - “the tithe teacihng” … Pentecostals try to bring people back into the law by their obligatory tithe teaching - thus killing the liberty of faith and Spirit.
not ALL pentecostals teach it.
July 21st, 2007 at 10:49 pm
Hi Lionfish:
Don’t you read what people write? We don’t teach tithing under law in our church and we’re Pentecostals. You know less than you think. Again you pander to the word ‘Pentecostal’, lob all Pentecostals into your bag of misinformation and bias, and miss the truth.
July 21st, 2007 at 10:51 pm
POST 864
This is an argument style Lance does so well, facelift. only he uses it to promote or defend what some call immoral sexual practices.
July 21st, 2007 at 10:54 pm
Okat I made a mistake.
I will extend my generalisation to include Baptists as well as Pentecostals.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:06 pm
And Seventh day Adventists…
July 21st, 2007 at 11:07 pm
You’re in danger of bending the truth to suit your aims, Lionfish. Going back to the Law of Moses included all the ceremonies and circumcision, blood sacrifices, cleansing ceremonies, etc., which were made unnecessary by Christ’s death and resurrection, and therefore engendered bondage, since the ceremonies and sacrifices were rendered worthless.
Top qualify what I’m about to ask, as I said we don’t teach tithing as Law, but giving as an act of Christian expedience, as instructed by the Lord, not of necessity, or grudgingly, but out of cheerful, willing heart, with the tenth as a good figure, and as a one example of how to give, albeit as a choice and of our own freewill, but, anyway, couple of questions:
Do you think that the tithe is no longer holy unto to the Lord, as revealed in Leviticus 27?
Ethically and hypothetically, if someone tithed believing it was the right thing to do according to law, do you think that would be considered a sin, or that God would condemn them for it, assuming their tithe was put to good use to help win souls?
July 21st, 2007 at 11:36 pm
I don’t believe it is beneficial at all to generalise about Pentecostal Christians as abtruth, LF and other have done.
I grew up in a small independent evangelical church where the gifts of the Spirit were not recognised, and in which the manifestations were written off as Satanic by some. I never accepted that simply because I can’t see any scriptural teaching or authority to back that position.
Equally the only time I ever became confused about my salvation was when I was cornered by half a dozen people from the Potter’s House who were on about me speaking in tongues to confirm my status as saved. That was a clear example of Jesus +, same thing as the Galations issue + referred to above, Jesus + circumcision, Jesus + tithing, Jesus + prosperity, Jesus+vow of poverty etc etc.
Anything Jesus + is off the planet.
Facelift I think you are genuine and yes I agree that there should be a much more even handed dialogue instead of slagging off at each from any distance at all.
However the Genesis reference I think is a bit of a long shot - gardening, subduing etc was pre-fall. And even though we now have the benefit of direct access to God again through Jesus until we die or He comes again we are post fall and remain under the curse of Adam:
Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree about which I commanded you, “You shall not eat of it”, cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return.’ Gen 3
Being saved or a Christian if you will does not void this in the slightest. The power of death may no longer have a permanent hold on us, but we still can’t avoid it - no matter which covenant you want to invoke.
I see no biblical case for virtue in either poverty or riches. The question is what is most likely to act as a stumbling block to relationship with God? I think the clear answer Scripture gives is wealth because in wealth it is easy to feel as though we can live independently of God and also our neighbour. But spiritual pride can come quite clearly come from someone who takes a vow of poverty trying to curry favour with God - reverse racism abounds.
Is our objective more of whatever this world has to offer, indulging our senses and sense of importance or is it God through Jesus in whole dependence on Him for our wellbeing? To that end I don’t care what label is given to anyone. I guarantee I can go into any church, any fellowship and find something or someone to criticise or find fault with - but what does that say about me?. It is fair to say also that different denominations are more pre-disposed to certain sorts of doctrinal error, which to me includes unbiblical emphasis. The sorts of things I have seen include baptism - adult and/or infant, works thru giving, speaking in tongues as a marker of being a 1st class Christian, singing a capella Psalms only in church, Gnosticism, having losts of programs as an indicator of spiritual health and a source of attraction for non-believers, name it and claim it, etc etc - that is just in my neck of the woods. Not to mention a lack of love and care for the brethren in just about every church - as that is probably our most grievious and easily lapsed into sin.
At the end of the day we either love our neighbour in the name of Jesus or we don’t. And when we love our neighbour in the name of Jesus He is actually asking that we do that not only in His name, we actually do it ourselves - He is asking something of us - firstly from from our hearts, and only then probably our wallets - not that is ever anyone else’s business.
Take care! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; for one’s life does not consist in the abundance of possessions.’ Like 12
and a word of warning to all of us from I Cor 3:
According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building on it. Each builder must choose with care how to build on it. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid; that foundation is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. If the work is burned, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.
To finish: I have a lot of “stuff”. Some of it is quite valuable and some might look at it and think - gee MN’s doing well - not seeing the mountain of debt that supports the habit. All of it will be burnt up, and while it might useful and even beautiful now - it will be burnt up. The bigger question for me is what am I doing to add to the that which will not be burnt up and to add something to God’s glory - not that He needs my help. My “prosperity” or “poverty” for the most part will be burnt up except to the extent that I submit and use it for God’s greater glory, hopefully being part of and an expression of love for God and my neighbour - hope that makes sense.
Enough for now - losing the thread.
Cheers
MN
July 21st, 2007 at 11:53 pm
Facelift,
1) The Tithe was part of the Old Covenant - as was circumcision and many other things including the Jewish Holy Days and Sabbaths. The old (which inlcudes Tithing) has been done away with in Total by the New Testament of Grace.
2) The person whom you describe had better be bloody careful that they are not trying to justify themselves by obeying the Law through tithing or sabbath keeping or anything else = lest they will need to keep the whole Law) as St Paul warned in Galatians …
Howveer, if they do so as a matter of individual conscience, then, Tithing like keeping a particular day Holy, or abstaining from certain foods can fall into the Romans 14 Bucket.
The problem lies when people like some Pentecostals or SDA’s try to impose a practice like Tithing (or Sabbath keeping for that mtter) as an obligation for a NT Christian … then this is a compromise of the liberty of the Christian to choose the amount to give.
At the very least, Tithing should be recognised as a ‘non-essential’, and a matter of conscience that sits clearly within the Romans 14 ‘bucket’.
This is not the way it is presented by many memga churches as part of their fund raising strategies.
For further reading, This is the best website on Giving vs Tithing I have seen:
http://thetithe.org/index.php?pg=taxes.htm
It is clear, simple and accurate – I just love the page “have you ever Tithed a cow?”
With a great Bible study on Tithing here:
http://thetithe.org/index.php?pg=study.htm
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:00 am
Okay, I apologise for my generalisation guys.
It’s just that most of the more prominent Pentecostal leaders that I have met have had “hard line” and erroneous views on Tithing.
It’s great that some Pentecostals can see through the error.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:18 am
Great stuff LF.
This is not on topic but somehow I feel like it is relevant.
You know my oldest son (19) is going to church tomorrow for the first time for probably the best part of a year.
He stopped going because the things he did (which was quite a bit) weren’t appreciated and because he is a young person with differing views from the “hierarchy” didn’t feel like he could make an impression or truly serve God.
As I say, he’s going tomorrow - his decision entirely - I haven’t spoken about it for months or pushed him at all - neither has his mum.
My concern is that he will still feel as though there is an “us” and “them” and the frustration will get to be too much. But I thank God that he has thought things thru for himself and is going, and my prayer is that he will seek to serve God with and thru His people - inspite of the crap that we inflict on on another - and that he will continue to seek to honour God throughout his days.
Cheers
MN
July 22nd, 2007 at 4:48 am
If that is what Rev meant - and he said that’s what he meant, then railing on about consuming less (a la the current Gaia -religo-political-cult ) is not the answer.
July 22nd, 2007 at 8:48 am
why do you have such a distaste for the idea that we should consume less?
rev
July 22nd, 2007 at 10:37 am
MN, hoping things go well for your son.
I find it hard to be in church when you have a particular set of skills that are desirable, not only in the world but also in the church. Even more so when you have a few different skill sets as some people do. I always wrestle with that scripture that says to whom much is given much will be required. Thankfully I’m starting to rely more on the prompting of the holy spirit to know where and when to open the toolbox, so to speak, and invest time. It is hard though when you see a need and you know you can help.
July 22nd, 2007 at 10:54 am
Rev, consumption, money and trade are the major ways that people interact with each other in this society. If you are always consuming less you are taking yourself out of society and living a more monastic life. Thats great, but it does take you away from the concerns of most people in our culture. With the culture the way it is, there are very few contact points between people except commercial ones.
July 22nd, 2007 at 11:12 am
The answer lies somewhere in the middle.
We in Western Society need to consume less selfishly, but produce and deliver real value more unselfishly.
On thing that bugs me is that everyone is making huge capital gains from property (no real value-add) at the expense of the poor and the next generation that cannot afford to purchase a property without becoming slaves to huge debt.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:31 pm
That is completely untrue in my life, because I am consuming less, I do not need to work as much, which gives me more time to actually be a part of peoples lives. When you are getting paid to be with people I don’t believe it is real community. So I have time to have coffees with people, to go for walks with people, to visit people in the hospital. What we need to understand is most of the people that are “marginalized” actually aren’t the ones shopping, and engaging in commerce. If we are not doing the same we can participate in life more with them. We practice community by going to the laundromat instead of buying our own machine, we practice community by working in a gardern with people instead of going to the groceries, we practice community be doing art instead of going to the theater.
rev
July 22nd, 2007 at 2:07 pm
I liked your post at 881 mn… and I hope and pray God will speak into the life of your son.
The effect of the fall and the work of Christ is interesting to me… in some senses Christ has “undone” the effects of the fall.
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.”
We can fellowship with God without the need for animal sacrifices and mediator priests… in that sense it’s a restoration of the relationship of Adam and Eve with God.
In a sense we belong to a present kingdom, yet to come in all its fullness. The fall is not yet “fully undone.” From Romans 8 again:
Romans 8:18 “I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.”
It seems to me that one error of the WOF teachers is “because of Christ you are now healed of every disease” (and worse… if you stay sick it’s your fault because of your lack of faith in God’s promise… now you’re not only sick but also displeasing to God!)
Is the kingdom of God concerned with this material world as well as the life to come? I believe so… I don’t think it’s God’s will that people be hungry or homeless or without clothes or without access to safe water… the “shalom” of God is about peace and justice in the here and now.
Is it God’s usual will for people to live a long and relatively healthy lifespan? I think it is God’s “usual will”, and we know how to achieve this for the majority of people… drinking plenty of water, eating nutritious foods, exercise, avoiding toxins (smoking, chemicals), having people to love and belong to, meaningful work to do, a balanced sort of lifestyle re. rest and socialisation and worship and play and sleep and work.
Does God heal people? All the time… usually via the immune system, sometimes with the aid of medicine, sometimes more “miraculaously.” But the fall has left a flaw in our genetic composition, in our environment, in our minds, in our hearts, in our moral and emotional makeup. Some people get sick and die young, and that’s just the way it is.
Anyway, bit of a ramble… comments from others are welcome!
July 22nd, 2007 at 2:09 pm
It sounds like you have a rich life in the things that matter, Rev. Good on you.
July 22nd, 2007 at 4:04 pm
Janet,
‘It seems to me that one error of the WOF teachers is “because of Christ you are now healed of every disease” (and worse… if you stay sick it’s your fault because of your lack of faith in God’s promise… now you’re not only sick but also displeasing to God!)’
It’s a pity you have it ‘’seem’ that way, but it’s a common argument against WoF teaching on healing, which is unfounded. In fact it is an assumption made y critics that this is the way WoF teachers think.
Jesus healed people who could not possibly have been Christians. He sent his disciples out to people who were not Christians and many were healed and delivered from demons. In fact some of his disciples were amazed that they had authority over demons. Jesus considered that insignificant compared to having their names written in heaven. After the resurrection, Jesus’ disciples healed non-Christians, some of whom subsequently converted to Christianity. Hence, healing is not reserved for Christians. Standard WoF teaching.
Every Christian doesn’t receive physical healing because they become a Christian, although, like all of us they have access to the healer, who is Christ. I don’t remember hearing WoF teachjng which claimed that we are all healed when we became Christians.
Jesus taught and demonstrated that faith is often important to a person’s healing or deliverance, or to the deliverance or healing of a loved one, however there are clearly times when he or his disciples healed people who had little faith, which placed the onus on His faith, and on the power of God to heal regardless of a person’s faith.
I have never heard a WoF teacher say a person without faith was at ‘fault’ for having no faith, or because the faith they had didn’t seem to work, as if they were in sin for being sick or retaining sickness despite coaching. I think critics imply this without foundation, and have made a pseudo-doctrine out of it to prove their own argument, although there may have been some preachers who have slipped into this error, but none I’ve heard or read. It’s not standard WoF teaching, which actually seeks, yes, to build faith and prepare a person to receive healing, but not to condemn them for not having ‘enough’ faith to be healed.
July 22nd, 2007 at 4:48 pm
I accept it if you say it is not standard practice… but I used to work with someone whose relative committed suicide because his church taught that if he had enough faith he would be healed. He hoped and hoped and prayed and psyched himself to be rid of his disability (wheelchair)… and finally despaired, believing himself to be a bad Christian.
Another woman I know (I was in her cell group for a while) testified at a women’s camp that her husband only died of cancer because “they lost their faith he’d be healed”… and stated he would still be alive if only they had been able to keep believing. What a terrible burden!
I remember reading a book by a Christian couple whose young daughter died of a diabetic coma because they were told that “if they had faith” she would be healed, and if they gave her medication it would show they doubted God’s power to heal. This was taught by her church. This smacks to me of twisting God’s arm… and it had tragic consequences.
I have also heard of schitzophrenics who have suicided because they have been told that taking their medication demonstrated a lack of faith that God would heal them… plunging them into profound mental illness.
This idea IS out there… if you can assure me these are exceptional cases I’m pleased to hear it… I’m pleased to hear your own church is moderate on these issues. I hope you can hear me that I’m not against praying for the sick and asking God for healing… I’m against the excesses of the kind of false teaching shown in these examples.
July 22nd, 2007 at 6:58 pm
Janet/Facelift
This preview documents the WOF issues that you are talking about.
http://sufferthechildren.com/preview.html
July 22nd, 2007 at 7:16 pm
Face Lift
I make this statement up front - I believe that God heals people - but He doesn’t always choose to do so - for His reasons.
Did Paul have no faith - God chose not to heal him.
You say healing is a matter of faith. In part you are right, but also in part you are wrong.
It is a matter of what God has in store for you, and also still suffering the consequences of the fall till He comes again.
Did Paul, Timothy, Jairus, Jesus, and Job lack faith? Look what happened to them!!
Your language does not take into account that God chooses a different path for a lot of people. Having access to Jesus the healer in no way means you will get healing.
What is the difference between a fatal car crash and cancer? None - the effects are exactly the same. God allows suffering that we may grow in faith ( I make the same statement as before - there is no virtue in suffering in and of itself).
I agree that healing is sometimes something that God grants individuals, and may be there should be a lot more of it, but in my mind the real test of faith in God and and our trust in Him is when there is no healing, and we have nothing but faith and His grace to sustain us through the hard times - which for some people last their whole lives. Equally it is just dumb to refuse healing if that is what God would have for that individual.
It is the leap that I have seen and heard from many others in charismatic circles that in Janet’s words lead in someway to a position where we can either twist God’s arm through “our faith”, or in some way not being healed is the fault of the believer via their “lack of faith”. This is just straight out works and heresy, putting people right back into the straight jacket that Christ died to deliver them from. My freedom in Christ is simply not dependent on whether He heals me of an affliction.
If your fellowship has a good grip on these things then great, but my experience is this is often not the case.
Cheers
MN
July 22nd, 2007 at 8:30 pm
Turtleneck
thanks - your comments are spot on about issues re “opening the toolbox”, and listening to the Holy Spirit. The scripture that comes to mind for me in the same vein is the parable of the talents.
Cheers
MN
July 22nd, 2007 at 8:32 pm
I don’t wanna be the guy that buries his one talent and gets blasted on the Masters return. But then how not to get sucked in to things just for the sake of it or because it “seems like a good idea”.
Cheers
MN
July 22nd, 2007 at 9:14 pm
LF
just had a look at some of that link you posted - gives me the creeps.
MN
July 22nd, 2007 at 9:43 pm
Have too much to say at the moment - going back to work tomorrow so you’re all safe.
With respect to Warren’s comments at #888 (sufficiently distant from 666) it strikes me that you need both types of involvement and engagement from people.
If I quit my job and took a path like Rev, who would talk to my mate at work about God things like I have been able to do for the last 5 years or so(still working on that one)?
If Rev didn’t do what he does then would do that? Saint - did I hear you volunteering?
Need all types in all sorts of walks of life. Let’s see in the Bible we have tax collectors (hey that’s me), prostitutes, regal advisors, housewives, teenagers, kings, old folks, carpenters, fisherman, bureuacrats (up the bureacrats), prophets, labourers, generals, maid servants, farmers, vignerons (up the vignerons) etc etc
Cheers
MN