Is the emerging church good?
Ogyle asks the question:
Hmm, .. the EC is good ?? Essentially, the EC is “change from within”, but the change is corrupt. It’s essentially Hinduism in Christian clothing. The “centering” is achieved by emptying the mind via chanting a “sacred word” over and over for about 20 minutes.
But there are many other facets of the EC, besides “chanting” that should send up warning signals. Quite a number of good articles on the Emerging Church here.
Especially the one on Biblical versus Postmodern Thinking
Warning, … danger … look out !!!
Some others have already provided their responses in the thread, but I thought I would open it up for all and sundry. How do you define the EC? What do you consider its strengths and weaknesses?
October 6th, 2006 at 12:47 pm
I did a Master Negotiators Course (essential, as part of my job) a couple of weeks ago. They brought in an Organisational/Occupational Psychologist whom was very highly skilled & usually tutors Lawyers.
His job was to find “gaps in our game” & find out what our “hot buttons” were through a series of High-pressure/confrontational style role-plays. His theory being that no matter how smooth you think you are, there is always someone who knows how to stick their fingers in your wounds & throw you off you’re game.
I had a private conversation with him as i found out that we had a similar background originally in social work / street ministry. He told me that when these people who know how to play you are encountered, & they throw you off, you should be delighted & interested because you have just been granted an opportunity to grow & know more about yourself in a way you never would have without the unexpected pressure.
This to me, is what a Prophet might be like.
Do you follow where i’m going with this?
October 6th, 2006 at 1:02 pm
And Greg, i agree, i do not think that Bono can be described as a Prophet, i think that this would be a pretenscious claim. This opinion would not be shared by a number of Emergent guys though, many of whom believe he is.
October 6th, 2006 at 2:34 pm
This is what the Mormons (Latter Day Saints) offer up as the “Profile Of a Prophet”
——————————————————————————–
*His message will be dignified, intelligent, earnest, and honest, but he will not necessarily he a learned person.
*There will he no spiritualistic claims of communion with the dead, no clairvoyance or legerdemain.
*Generally he will he a young man such as Samuel; a man having good parentage and associates.
*His message must he reasonable and scriptural.
*He will be fearless and positive, unmindful of current opinion and the creeds of the day.
*He will make no concessions to public opinion or the effect upon himself or his reputation or personal fortune.
*His message must be current, unusual, but historically consistent.
*He will simply but earnestly tell what he has seen and heard.
*His message, not himself, will be important to him.
*He will boldly declare, “Thus saith the Lord!”
*He will predict future events in the name of the Lord, events that he could not control, events that only God could bring to pass.
*His message will be important not only for his generation but for all time, such as the messages of Daniel, Ezekiel, and Jeremiah.
*He will have courage, fortitude, and faith enough to endure persecution and, if necessary, to give his life for his testimony, and be willing to seal his testimony with his blood as did Peter and Paul.
*He will denounce wickedness fearlessly and be rejected and ridiculed therefor.
*He will do superhuman things, things that only a man inspired of God could do.
*The consequence of his teachings will be convincing evidence of his prophetic calling: “By their fruits ye shall know them.”
*His word and message will live after him.
*All of his teachings will be scriptural. In fact, his words, writings, and message will become scripture. “For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” (2 Pet. 1:21.)
October 6th, 2006 at 3:14 pm
(AKA tbokar)
Reve, advance to Go, collect $200, for you are hitting this on the button. We tend to make the people we like, or who stand for what we think we believe, into our idea of prophets. That’s why people come up with rather silly examples such as Bono or Bill Gates. However, the true prophet (whether foretelling or forth telling) will generally make us feel uncomfortable by telling us something we’d rather not hear. Often, as a result, we will react badly, because we realise that we have been caught out.
Someone has dared to see us for who we truly are!
Somebody who presses your buttons probably knows you better than you know yourself. They deserve listening to, because it might just be God trying to get through.
October 6th, 2006 at 3:18 pm
Yeah, I like your thinking Reve.
October 6th, 2006 at 3:34 pm
Awesome, so we’re mostly in agreement about what a Prophet might be like in modern times, let’s have some stories….
When have you ben launched into greater spiritual understanding / self-knowledge / societal knowledge by someone that you “didn’t like”?
Maybe it was someone you even percieved as being an enemy?
This is good stuff.
October 6th, 2006 at 4:39 pm
Reve,
when I was having dinner with some blokes who lived on the streets one night, during the Sydney Olympics. I was crapping on about how outrageous the amount of money spent on the Opening Ceremony was, how it could be used for food, housing, blah blah blah. There was silence. Then someone looked at me and said “yeah, Bec…but we really enjoyed watching it on tv. And Jesus knew how to party, didn’t he?”
Ha. That put me back in my self-righteous little box. It reminded me that I can only be a voice for the voiceless if I shut up long enough to listen to them.
October 6th, 2006 at 4:44 pm
oh…AND when I had my coffee cup read by a friend of the partner I was doing vacation work for…the predictions were frighteningly spot on, and I was not only very unsettled by it but embarassed, since I’d been trying to convince this partner that I really *did* want to work in a highly corporate, commercial environment, and the predictions said anything but that…
For the record, I don’t think it’s smart to have your fortune told etc. This happened to me by accident, and while I wasn’t initially TOO phased by it, I very quickly got quite upset by it. Ever since I’ve stayed well-clear and don’t let myself get cajoled into things at parties.
October 6th, 2006 at 5:42 pm
I don’t think the prophetic looks like “just one thing”… sometimes it’s foretelling in that kinda “freaky” way… sometimes it’s the voice of God in unlikely places (the homeless)… sometimes its the prophetic preacher with a nose for how we’ve lost our way, calling us back to God’s mission… sometimes its the brilliant intuitive (maybe and intellectual or an artist who can “sniff the wind” and see what’s coming years before anyone else)… sometimes its a blogger like Lance!
One experience? I was talking with Al Hirsch years ago, who was reflecting that so much resource is poured into church revitalisation… more so than in launching new missional initiatives (many think it’s easier to birth a baby than it is to raise the dead!!!!)
He then of church revitalisation of churches on “death’s door”… “In my experience it hardly ever happens, and it takes exceptional leadership to pull it off.” He then said casually: “But you could probably do it.”
I just laughed. How ridiculous… me, an ordinary housewife from the suburbs.
The stupid phrase stuck with me, dammit. God kind of worked on it. I’m now training for the ministry.
Al can also be prophetic in that “smelling the wind and seeing the trends” sense… people looked at him strangely when he said his missional church stuff 10 years ago… it’s become pretty mainstream now.
October 6th, 2006 at 9:58 pm
Prophets…I have had people speak into my life and the most accurate have been with very few words.
I was working in Griffith as the manager (the management committee gave the job the fancy title of Director…but there was only me and my wife working there!) of an affioliiate centre of Teen Chalenge; The Griffith Gatehouse. It was started by Don Mckay’s wife along with a few other people.
I was about 28 and still hadn’t begun working on or even recognising the issues in my life..and yet I was in ministry and was seen as an “expert” on counselling and drug and alcohol issues in the church…sund familiar?
Two things happened that really through me. The first was that a guy called and asked if he could sleep in one of the rooms in the centre. ‘Bob’ shared a flat right near the Gatehouse with friends who all took drugs, mainly speed, so they’d all been up and still were partying back at his place. He was coming down and needed to sleep.
‘Bob’ called at about 7am and I’d had a restless night with our babies (or rather I had a restless night as I let my wife deal with our babies) and so was still half asleep.
I told him to come around at 9am…when we opened (we lived at the centre)…exactly as I’m sure Jesus wold have done.
He came around, explained his situation and I guess was expecting I would say yes. I didn’t. I told him it was his choice to live wher he did and do the things he did…if I let him sleep in the centre I’d just be supporting his drug addiction. I told him he should move into a flat on his own or get a room at the local salvo hostel, but that no, he could not sleep at the centre that day.
I can’t remember what he said then but I remember how I felt as he walked away; something was telling me I’d done the wrong thing…and so I did nothing. The doubt and shame I felt for sending him away ate at me and a few days, maybe weeks later I went up to his flat with some Chinese food the local restuarant proprietors, who were very suportive of the Gatehouse..we rented the house we used from them…had given us. I wanted to share the food and make amends.
As I aproached the door I felt nervous and as if i had no right to be there or to expect any sort of a positive reception. I was right. One of his flat mates opened the door and when Bob saw it was me he looked straight into my eyes and without blinking told his mate “Close that door”.
Those words bit straight into my heart and my soul and I can still hear Bob and those words to this day. God used those words and that situation. Bob would not have known it or even have believed it if he had been told, but those words were prophetic…within months I was out of that ministry, out of Griffith and felt as if i never wanted to hlop another person in my life ever again the door had indeed been closed.
That was 1993 and it has only been in recent years (since about 2001) that I have felt ready to come back into the vocation I believe God has called me to.
That was situation number one.
October 6th, 2006 at 10:03 pm
Wow… another homeless prophet.
What was situation two?
October 6th, 2006 at 10:41 pm
Situation two occured just as I was leaving Griffith, Teen Challenge and the Gatehouse. People on the comittee had started to complain that I wasn’t doing what I was there to do - be available just about 24/7. Working with that group was quite awful and was spiritual abuse in the sense that we were expected to be everything for everyone and with no pay…we got accomodation a $50 food allowance (which went up $5 per night per extra person staying with us) plus $65 per week pay stipend.
Anyhoo, I was getting more and more jaded, angry and disillusioned as each day went on. I heard about the complaints, which were really quite stupid..but symptomatic of deeper problems in my life and I went to talk to a guy who was the youth worker at the Uniting Chruch in Griffith at te time. I can’t remember his name but he was brilliant - his wife was a teacher as was he formerly. I digress.
I was an angry aggressive person and yet my deepest core desire was to be loved and accepted by people. It was a irony of sorts that te thing I desired most waws also the thing that scared me most and was the thing I unconciously drove away. That despite it people still recognised in me the call of God is nothing short of miraculous.
I wanted people to love me, yet I didn’t want them too close - I kept people at bay by being angry and aggressive…except I didn’t realise I was doing it - I would never have described myself as angry or aggressive and yet throughout my life I have heard people use those words to describe me and it has never failed to shock and dismay me.
I went to this guy at his invitation to talk through how I was feeling; he could see that things were eating me up. We sat and talked and I can remember nothing of the conversation except for this bit: I asked him why people couldn’t just come to me with their complaints about me - why they felt they had to go to other people? He suggested that they didn;t fel they could. I asked “What are they scared of me or something?” and instead of telling me anything he came straight back with a question - “Why, does that happen to you alot?
That little question floored me and was the point at which I started to realise that I scared people and that I didn’t want to. Although the road ahead was really not even the foggiest bit clear at that stage it was certainly one of the signposts pointing me in te right direction.
October 6th, 2006 at 11:12 pm
Fantastic stuff, guys. Thankyou. I love the honesty that goes on here, & the reality.
Here we have the real meat of real lives. The established church with its fears based around appropriateness has nothing on us.
Here our prophets do not wear the latest fashions, are not polished public speakers, are not property developers, lead singers of bands or motivational orators…..
They are the substance addicted, mentally unwell, homeless, broken & unrecognised as these stories show.
Jesus’s people.
October 7th, 2006 at 7:19 am
One thing I think must be pointed out is that some one can act in a prophetic way, or be prophetic to us in a certain situation, and it doesn’t make them a prophet. All of God’s gifts can function in people at times, and if you are willing to listen God’s spirit can talk to your through anyone and any circumstance. But someone who functions as a prophet in the church is one who consitently calls the church to growth, repentence and towards the future.
I think some of Bec’s concerns are valid because we have made the prophet into some superhuman ideal, and in the process elevated the vocation to a pedestel. The truth is apostolic and prophetic people are just gifted in a way that helps the church, but are no more “special” or “neccesary” than other parts of the body. We cause these problems when we esteem one gift above another.
rev
October 7th, 2006 at 7:19 am
Oh, and it was great to have you stay with our family Reve, glad you enjoyed your holiday.
rev
October 7th, 2006 at 7:52 am
That’s really true, Rev.
I think prophets often p*** us off - but I’ve also heard being prophetic as an “excuse” for people who tend to have little regard for others. Hence another reason for my concern about the label - I’ve seen it actually facilitate spiritual abuse.
The Rev points out that we create problems when we esteem one gift above another. I think church communities are really, really bad at identifying gifts and putting people in appropriate positions - how often do we see people who have prophetic gifts, or pastoral gifts, placed in administrative positions that they’re completely incapable of fulfilling?!
October 7th, 2006 at 8:36 am
That is also a good point Bec, just because you are a prophet doesn’t mean you can be an asshole, (except for me ofcourse). Jesus was the fulfilment of all of these gifts, and greater than the prophets, yet he was loving, and gentle, until it was time to be not so gentle. We cannot use our natural personality traits and giftings to justify being unloving or rude.
rev
October 7th, 2006 at 10:05 am
I’d also like to point out Reve, that as well as the homeless and drug addicted, there’s also been a story involving a Uniting Church minister and the National Director of Forge! I believe you have some prophetic gifting and you’re not out on the street. Let’s not limit God…
I’d be interested in other stories too!
October 7th, 2006 at 11:55 am
Well, I’ll throw one in… I’d almost forgotten this…
A couple of years ago Milton and Anne Oliver laid on hands and prayed for me… I experienced a compelling sense of God’s presence, and Anne said: “I believe God is releasing a prophetic gift in you”.
Nothing happened for a week or two. Then someone popped into my house fresh from shooting up (as she was wont to do). I felt something overcome me, and I stood up and said: “God is saying that He will no longer protect you from the consequences of your behaviour.”
She stormed off… leaving me awestruck going: “what just happened to me?” I was absolutely certain God spoke… the feeling was so compelling. (and I’m normally a very understanding wussy girl).
She came back about 1/2 an hour later to say: “God’s been saying that to me too”.
Now I think about it…. she has entered a season of reaping some of what she’s sown. I can only hope it’s redemptive pain.
October 7th, 2006 at 5:14 pm
This is becoming a realllly interesting thread, but I do think we should be very careful about what we write, not because I think anyone’s written anything inappropriate here, but because we need to be careful about how it’s perceived - I know many Christian bloggers who’ve posted things that they thought were very anonymous, only for it to blow up in their face (and they didn’t write anything inappropriate - some people are just excruciatingly sensitive and will get incredibly upset if they think they’re being “talked” about).
October 7th, 2006 at 5:22 pm
Rev,
I couldn’t agree more re: #197. I often think that our greatest talent/strength is also our greatest flaw/weakness.
On Signposts some time ago, there was a discussion about entrepreneurialism, traditional structures and how they stifle it etc. I’ll try and find it and link it here, because I think it’s quite relevant to this discussion. In that discussion, I made the point to Al Hirsch that “entrepreneurs”/”visionaries”/”prophets” go head to head with those who are good at the detail, the bureaucrats. Many of us in the EC movement have been frustrated with traditional churches because we struggle with their bureaucracy, rules etc aren’t *inherently* bad - it’s just the degree to which they’re taken…some red tape is good (for accountability, financial management etc), too much red tape is a very bad thing (because it stifles creativity, experimentation). Entrepreneurs get frustrated with bureaucrats and vice versa, and we end up with escalating conflict, with both “types” digging their heels in further. My tendency - and I suspect the tendency of many in the EC movement, ie the Rev (??) is to feel like the bureaucrats are stifling the Spirit, stifling creativity…but as I’ve witnessed this type of conflict more and more often, I realise that it’s a clash of personalities and ways of operating, and that if we understand our personal makeup, and that of others, we can not only avoid such bad confrontations, but can also harness the strengths in each.
I’m jabbering on…am I making sense?
October 7th, 2006 at 7:03 pm
I think I know exactly what you mean Bec, and I think you’re spot on. I’ve really learned to value the “voice of the bureaucrat” as precisely what I need!
October 8th, 2006 at 8:59 am
We are about to go iknto our Diocesan Synod next weekend an in the lead up to it there are a series of what are called pre synod meetings. At these meetings synod reps go through the synod papers and ask any questins they need to in order for them to have clarity with regards to the issues in the papers.
At the one I attended last Wednesday night our Diocesan buisiness manager made a very good point. He told us that his job was often seen as the wet blanket when really his job was to remind synod and the Bishop of the facts…mostly financial. Although he is a facts man I think he is also a man of mission and vision…a rare but beautiful combination in any individual in his job.
October 8th, 2006 at 12:50 pm
http://www.entertheworshipcircle.com/freestuff.php check out this worship music - brilliant - I’m listening to one now called I cannot hide my love -
I CANNOT HIDE MY LOVE
Ben Kennedy
HOLY SPIRIT, I NEED YOUR TOUCH
MORE THAN EVER BEFORE
OH JESUS, I NEED YOUR LOVE
AND I’M DESPERATE FOR MORE (2X)
WHEN I FEEL YOUR PRESENCE ALL AROUND ME
WHEN I FEEL YOUR ARMS AS THEY SURROUND ME
I CAN NOT HIDE MY LOVE, I CAN NOT HIDE MY LOVE
MY FEET WILL HAVE TO DANCE
I CAN NOT HIDE MY LOVE, I CAN NOT HIDE MY LOVE
MY HEART WILL HAVE TO SING
October 9th, 2006 at 8:56 pm
Hey Emegerino’s,
I will be taking another trip, this time to NZ (sth Is mostly) in Dec/Jan - can anyone recommend any experimental / emergent churces to visit whilst there? Anyone i should get along to hear speak? Anything you think i’d find intersting?
Looking for suggestions. Will be there for NYE as well & looking for ppl to spend it with or at least an event to attend else i’ll be alone ;o(
October 9th, 2006 at 8:58 pm
That was supposed to be EmeRgerino’s but, that’s cheesy anyway, so…..
October 9th, 2006 at 9:24 pm
EmerRgerino’s?…cheesy?…NZ? Is that some kind of sheep that’s your friend in the fridge?
October 9th, 2006 at 9:38 pm
Cityside and Graceway both sound interesting.
October 9th, 2006 at 9:56 pm
Hmmm…..just reading about both on LivingRoom, thing is, i think i’ll be spending my time in the South Sland & they’re North.
October 10th, 2006 at 9:12 am
Excuse me…but didn’t either of you notice my very funny refernce to merino’s New Zealanders and Mainland Colby (your friend in the fridge?) I don’t like to be ignored…I’m very sensitive that way.