Tithing Debate Heating Up
Article published in “Challenge Weekly” Newspaper in New Zealand by Cultwatch Director and novelist Mark Vrankovich
Date: Week starting the 4th of September 2006
World wide the tithing debate is heating up, fueled by the increasing abuses of this suspect doctrine by money-centric pastors. I will detail those abuses later in this article. Indeed, we at Cultwatch are so concerned with the complaints we are receiving, complaints increasing in both number and intensity, that we have launched a new international web site www.TithingDebate.com
TithingDebate.com is a portal to the very best Biblical arguments against the idea that Christians are obliged to tithe, or comply with a mysterious “tithing principle”. Without a doubt the Malachi tithing regime taught in many churches today has been fabricated by greedy men, it bares no resemblance to any doctrine found in the Bible.
This debate has been brewing for a while. One of the first entries to this debate was the underground Christian book Eating Sacred Cows by New Zealand pastor Graeme Carlé. Eating Sacred Cows has been much hated by tithing-teachers because it immunises Christians from their guilt ridden rhetoric. Using clear Bible based reasoning Pastor Graeme’s book has set many Christians free from the bondage of this false doctrine. Honest Bible teachers have embraced his book, including the late Dr. Derek Prince who was so impressed with Eating Sacred Cows that he personally bought twenty copies to give to his international council. And, thanks to pastor Graeme’s generosity, Eating Sacred Cows is now available for the first time as a free download from TithingDebate.com - we are chuffed to have such a renown book to giveaway with TithingDebate.com’s launch.
In addition to Pastor Graeme’s book we have another free book for download, theologian Dr. Russell Earl Kelly’s book Should The Church Teach Tithing? Dr. Kelly earned his Ph. D. with a thesis on tithing and will debate any tithing-teacher prepared to step up to the plate – unsurprisingly, few accept his challenge. Pastor Graeme and Dr. Kelly have raised the tithing debate to a level where the tithing-teachers simply cannot compete.
Hence, the current strategy of the tithing-teachers is to keep silent, stonewall, and just hope this debate will go away. Well, it’s not going away. I believe our Lord has determined to expose this false doctrine for what it is. Other tithing-teachers are soft-stepping backwards; retreating quietly from what they now realize is an indefensible position. The tithing-teachers who are trapped are those who do not have enough faith to believe that God can provide for their ministries and therefore are desperate to hold onto this guilt and fear driven money-extraction-tool. These men and women are afraid that their ego enhancing glass-door monuments and supply of new cars, boats, houses, and holidays will dry up if their church members move to the Biblical model of Christian giving known as “New Testament Giving”.
New Testament Giving is where, in accordance with 2 Corinthians 9:7, Christians decide prayerfully in their own hearts what, where, and when to give. They decide cheerfully and not under compulsion. This model is Biblical and works. Think about it, God knows where He wants money to go, He directs Christians via the Holy Spirit and the money goes there. It’s elegant and simple, fully compliant with the grace we Christians live under. But it is an anathema to tithing-teachers; totally contrary to their control-freaky ways. Now instead of demanding the money they have to appeal for it. They have to enthuse Christians to give to their projects by underlining the spiritual benefits, how it will help the poor, save lost souls, and educate Christians. They have to trust God for provision. Imagine trying to appeal for a new Ford or Holden for the Pastor’s son on this basis. They want to keep their ability to command money from their church members, despite the fact that even the Apostle Paul stopped short of commanding people to give (2 Corinthians 8:8).
The following is a sample of the wealth of information you’ll find at TithingDebate.com:
You’ll discover that the tithing teachers are taking Malachi out of context. That Christians are not under the Mosaic law discussed in Malachi. That the term “storehouse” cannot equal the “local church”. That the pattern of the tithe being taught today (ten percent of your gross income per year) is not found anywhere in the New or Old Testament. That Abraham’s one off war-booty tithe did not establish an earlier law that somehow still applies to Christians today. Also, Jesus never instructed Christians to tithe, and the early church did not tithe, and apart from abstaining from blood and three other points the first council in Acts saw no other laws as required to burden the gentile church with (Acts 15:19-21), that’s right, tithing was not mentioned.
The abuses perpetrated in the name of this false doctrine are spiraling out of control. Comments questioning tithing by readers on tithing-teacher owned web sites are quickly deleted. Christian leaders are removing members from their church for questioning if tithing is true. A Christian asks his pastor to read a book on the subject, and the pastor shows him the bin where he will throw it. Christians are told that God will only bless them if they do tithe and He’ll curse them if they don’t. Giving is monitored and church members are punished if they don’t tithe. Tithing is added to the list of criteria for church leadership or even membership, despite not appearing in any such Biblical list. A well known New Zealand pastor tells the poor that if they have to choose between eating and giving to their church, then they should give to their church. A new Christian stopped going to her church because she couldn’t afford it. This madness has to stop.Tithing or the “tithing principle” for Christians today is a fabrication. We would encourage all Christians to visit TithingDebate.com and find out what the tithing-teachers don’t want you to know.
October 4th, 2006 at 9:07 pm
[…] Tithing Debate Heating Up […]
October 4th, 2006 at 9:11 pm
[…] Tithing Debate Heating Up […]
October 4th, 2006 at 9:13 pm
[…] Tithing Debate Heating Up […]
October 6th, 2006 at 10:12 pm
I must confess to a touch of personal pathology… and say I find the tithing idea very comforting, compared to giving one’s all so there is equality. For where does giving stop? If there is still a child in the world going to bed crying with hunger… should I sell my house? my car? my computer? my clothes? cash my superannuation? empty my bank account? What about my own children? Where does giving end in the face of overwhelming human need?
Am I the only sicko who finds the law rather comforting… compared to the scary abandonment of giving up all to follow Jesus?
October 6th, 2006 at 10:44 pm
what are those things posing as comments up there?
October 7th, 2006 at 7:50 am
Janet, I understand your feelings.
rev
October 7th, 2006 at 8:27 am
Janet,
I concur with you. The comfort is all there for middle and upper class Christians to check one more box on the to-do list.
However, the tithe does hurt those whom it was supposed to benefit, and benefits those whom it was not supposed to.
I had a conversation with a young mum yesterday. Although a Xian, she fell pregnant out of wedlock. Her boyfriend (now husband) was you and unskilled. Now he is do the best he can, gone to tafe, doing an apprenticeship and have just bought their first (humble) home. He is not (yet) a Xian in the ‘believing’ sense of the term, and as you can imagine they have to be so careful with their finances. The woman said, “we cannot afford to tithe - but I feel guilty. Other people I know tithe”.
She was surprised and happy when I explained to her she does not have to tithe!
It’s this guilt thing that get’s me the most. Coupled where the funds flow to via the lucrative speaking circuit (in some Churches).
I find what Mark has written in his article most comforting “They decide cheerfully and not under compulsion. This model is Biblical and works. Think about it, God knows where He wants money to go, He directs Christians via the Holy Spirit and the money goes there. It’s elegant and simple, fully compliant with the grace we Christians live under…”
October 7th, 2006 at 8:50 am
Lionfish, I agree that teaching tithing as a legalism really sucks and hurts the poor…. it should be about freedom.
However… to raise the point that tithing has a long tradition in the church and perhaps should be considered in one’s stewardship has a couple of advantages, I think.
There are tender guilt-prone souls out there (God bless them) who would give and give and give and sell themselves short and never feel like it’s enough.
Then there are hard hearted souls who “need” a new car, a large wide screen plasma TV, a big house (etc. etc.)… it doesn’t matter how much they earn, they’d be lucky to find a gold coin or two to support the work of local ministry and overseas or local charity.
So I think the “soft” souls benefit from some guideline as to what they might legitimately keep, and the “hard” souls benefit from a tough challenge as to what they might give (a 10% guideline is a significant act of discipleship for them)
I’m being picky I know… but the problem with being led by the Spirit is He/She speaks in whispers much of the time… I might occasionally hear “give $x to y”… but not that often.
In some ways grace is more difficult than law (not that life was meant to be easy!)
October 7th, 2006 at 9:03 am
Good point Janet.
I am presently having trouble with wanting the wide-screen-tv thing too!
I believe if tithing is taught as a tradition, given without expectation of a blessing, or to avoid a curse, and given “not under compulsion” then, I have no problems with that.
October 7th, 2006 at 9:50 am
I believe scripture teaches what you are uncomfortable with Janet. I am sorry to say but it is hard. And I am also sorry to say that using the tithe as a way to avoid giving everything over to God is just as heretical as using it to procur God’s blessing and make oppresive pastors wealthy. The song is all to Jesus, not a tenth to Jesus. The fact is we, and especially the fundementalists, have simple spiritualized everything Jesus has to say about money. Of course Jesus means everything else literally, but when he says blessed are the poor, and woe to you rich, he didn’t really mean it. Of course Jesus didn’t really mean it when he said, give to those who ask of you. Of course Jesus didn’t really mean that riches are deceitful and choke out the word of God. He just meant it in a spiritual sense, as long as you don’t hold riches as more important than Jesus you can keep them all.
I am sorry, but Jesus does call us to be literally ready to give it all up. All of it!!!
And He does tell us not to store up treasures on earth.
rev
October 7th, 2006 at 10:00 am
Rev, I think you’re right…
I feel like some of the ranting against tithing that happens here is that it places a burden on people…
But giving up everything for Jesus is a much heavier yoke than giving up 10% for Jesus!
As stated… I know it’s pathological… but tithing seems a lighter yoke than abandoning all for Christ.
October 7th, 2006 at 11:07 am
[…] Apparently there’s a Tithing Debate Heating Up, with a new site out there, TithingDebate.com. […]
October 13th, 2006 at 3:51 pm
One problem I have with tithing is (especially if using the Old Testament for guidelines) is that I thought the tithe was to directly help the poor & the free-will gift or equivelent was for the priest/pastor. I also question a lot of the prosperity type financial teaching because of the many references about the Levites-how for instance,they were not to own any land. When you see so many Christians on TV especially, seeming to flaunt the trappings of wealth, it makes me really wonder.
October 13th, 2006 at 10:59 pm
You’ve nailed it in one Fathersgrace - tey want the best of both worlds -OT Law about tithing but not the law about not owning property. They actually would probably say they didn;t own it - their trusts and ministry charities own the propertyadn they live in them and drive thm and fly them for free!!!
October 16th, 2006 at 8:40 pm
I got my mail from Hillsong today. It makes me laugh. THey have told me if I give over $5000 I can belong to the Kingdom people with all these benefits (having breakfast with Brian and Bobbie once a month an annual retreat and a gift at each function from the resources) or if I give $2000- 5000 I can belong to the vision impacters and get all these benefits (having breakfast with Brian and Bobbie or equivalent once every 2 months and a special gift from the resources) or if I cant get off my arse and give this amount I can belong to the army of faithful believers. mmmmmm Whatever happened to the right hand giving without the left knowing. Is this not going back to the pharisees of old and placing those who give more in a special category with benefits. Shouldnt those who are poor be given more. Why do they have to bribe people to give. I suppose it goes back to human nature and that is people always want something for their money. Why should I want people to know how much I give. Isnt this gift worthless in God’s eyes if others know. Your reward will be given in full here on earth by mankind. I guess this is so by placing a title of Kingdom people or a vision impacter. Of course if the title doesnt lure you then maybe the tax deduction will.
October 16th, 2006 at 10:00 pm
John-
Can you please email me.
clan.mackenzie@bigpond.com
October 17th, 2006 at 11:48 am
AMWAY… RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!!
October 17th, 2006 at 5:06 pm
“I got my mail from Hillsong today. It makes me laugh. THey have told me if I give over $5000 I can belong to the Kingdom people with all these benefits (having breakfast with Brian and Bobbie once a month an annual retreat and a gift at each function from the resources) or if I give $2000- 5000 I can belong to the vision impacters and get all these benefits (having breakfast with Brian and Bobbie or equivalent once every 2 months and a special gift from the resources) or if I cant get off my arse and give this amount I can belong to the army of faithful believers.”
Paying to get access to your own pastor?
Hill$ong has sunk to a new low.
October 18th, 2006 at 6:54 am
“I got my mail from Hillsong today. It makes me laugh. THey have told me if I give over $5000 I can belong to the Kingdom people with all these benefits …”
That reminds me of a couple of hilarious spoof articles I read at Lark News:
Nurseries offer first-class option
“On Sunday mornings, six-year-old Adrian Teller goes to Sunday school through a VIP entrance, avoiding the “cattle class” at the front desk.
“It’s worth the $15 per week,” says mother Sandy Teller who has embraced Abilene Baptist Church’s “First Class Kids” option.
The church is one of a handful to experiment with premium nurseries and Sunday school classes. Children in the First Class Kids program enjoy premium snacks, private bathrooms and personalized lessons. They are separated by a curtain from other children, to avoid causing jealousy.
“People want choices of service,” says pastor Ron Jacobs. “If we can offer 9 a.m. and 11 a.m. worship times, why not first class and economy class Sunday school?”
[source: http://www.larknews.com/august_2006/secondary_deaf.php?page=1 ]
Or this one:
Skyboxes, club cards woo ‘church customers’
“Calvary is believed to be the first church in America to use membership cards to dole out privileges to certain members. First-time visitors are offered the best seats — plush recliners in the orchestra section — while non-tithing attendees carry orange membership cards and are forced to sit in hard, stadium-style seats on the mezzanine.
“We give honor to whom honor is due,” says pastor Jerald Dennis. “If you tithe or volunteer in some way, you deserve a special thank you.”
Churches like his are drawing wealthier “church consumers” by promoting luxury and social stratification inside the sanctuary. As rich people attend, the theory goes, tithe revenues increase and the church better promotes the gospel.”
[Source: http://www.larknews.com/february_2005/secondary_deaf.php?page=4 ]
October 19th, 2006 at 9:58 am
ive said it a million times and i’ll keep saying it till i die
money is a strange thing.. we werent meant to have money - it is a human construction designed to deal with our relationships with each other separate from God.
God designed us to share his creation but in our rebellion we want to own his creation and be master of it ourselves and money helps us do that.
Money is not a neutral thing… it is more powerful than sex,power, material things, position, fame etc because money offers them all… good things can be done with money of course but as humans we are (in our natural state of rebellion) unable to do the right thing with it separate from God’s grace… it is only ever through Gods grace that i will ever do any good with what i have.
October 22nd, 2006 at 1:41 pm
“We weren’t meant to have money”.
You mean…. not at all?
I know it’s socialisation… but I can’t really imagine living in a world like that.
October 23rd, 2006 at 10:16 am
Hi Janet
what i mean is that we were created to live in the ‘garden of eden’ so to speak… it is a result of the fall that we now have ownership etc that i don’t think would have been an issue pre fall… just as i don’t think that we were meant to have doctors or counsellors but we need them now to cope with the situation we find ourselves in……
October 28th, 2006 at 6:47 pm
Can anyone help me understand why the knot about tithing,but say nothing about “interest” http://www.sydneyanglicans.net/indepth/bible_ban_on_charging_interest/
October 29th, 2006 at 9:44 pm
Hi Allan … never really thought about it - and thanks for the link.
October 30th, 2006 at 3:31 pm
This is a hole in theology that is big enough for the devil to drive a truck through…….and he has!!!
We have the weapons to stop the assault and bring the church to its proper stability in liberty.
October 30th, 2006 at 4:04 pm
Related to the issue of interest,Lionfish is the issue of taxation.Those who spend their sermons demanding tithing as a biblical principle,seem to me to be the ones who are working their buts off in creative taxation.Its suggested that some clergy in apostolic/pentecostal circles are not only taking their whole “salary” in package form,but are claimimg social security benefits!
When the church fiddles with its cash sooner or later the devil catches up with them; if not the devil then the local council.My local council is in the midst of demanding that churches pay local govt rates and taxes!
November 1st, 2006 at 1:00 am
The Signposts Tapes.
It’s become evident that I haven’t been ‘notorious’ enough lately.
So here is a recording of a pastor, describing how he would deny assistance to someone in need, if they weren’t tithing.
The pastor is Rich Witmer of Generations Church in Yuma, Arizona.
The audio was recorded by a local Marines Sergeant in Yuma, who was investigating why one of his Marines, a Generations Church member, was in financial trouble.
This is the audio.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_8Np5U5iPX8
And here is a transcript of the conversation between Pastor Rich, a man I presume to be the Marines Sergeant, and someone named ‘Joe’.
—
“(pastor Rich Witmer)…..”but also another thing too….is a guy like this ….if he called up and said … ‘now we’re in a jam..we can’t make our house payment…you know…we’re really having a problem right now’……the first thing I’d do.. is I’d have her….talk to the administrative girl…… find out if they’re tithing. And the way that she’d do it…is just to look and see if there was a regular amount coming in.
You know…because we don’t ..(inaudible)….and if they were… we’d write ‘em a cheque ….you know what I mean? But if they don’t …”
(unidentified man) ..”so….if they tithe….then you help them out …if they don’t then ….”
(pastor) “well….this is the funny thing….this might really …really mess with your head, but if it’s a person who doesn’t go to the church at all…doesn’t go to any church…..if they don’t ..then we’ll help them……but if they come to the church…….”
(unidentified man) “You can have ..a member …a church member… who isn’t tithing…or isn’t tithing regularly …they all of a sudden need help….they’re S-O-L …we’ll tell ‘em (inaudible)…”
(unidentified man) “wow”
(pastor) “And let me tell you why……let’s say you’re tithing. And let’s say this guy sitting right here, Joe, he doesn’t tithe. Should I take your money and give it to him?”
(unidentified man) “I have a question about your philosophy …the ethics of your philosophy….”
(another unidentified man) “that’s awesome… I like that..”
(unidentified man) “No I’m serious because …it doesn’t seem like you should….if you have…a group of people following you ….or using….your house….your house of worship … and for whatever reason..one of them isn’t tithing…and they need help… then…you’re not gonna help them…that’s no…that’s very surprising to me…”
(pastor) “We’re gonna teach ‘em about tithing.”
—
There are more secret recordings of the pastor on the Marines Sergeant’s blog here…talking about the church controlling politics, and some interesting comments about Hindus and burglars.
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendID=16067776&MyToken=19317551-0ede-4a5f-bcef-e7f6cff81683ML
And here is some background of the Marines Sergeant ..doing the secret recordings.
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=16067776
“Background regarding my blogs:
I am a Marine gunnery sergeant stationed in Yuma, Ariz. When I arrived here in March of 2006, I took over as a supervisor for an office of about 10 Marines. Almost immediately upon my arrival, one of the Marines who worked for me started aggressively suggesting I go with him to Generations Church. I didn’t want to, and I told him so. Although I made my feelings about being recruited clear, it didn’t stop him from using his aggressive recruiting tactics on other Marines who arrived for duty in my office.
At first, I didn’t think much of it; I figured that if a Marine wants to go to this church, then he/she could. However, within a couple of months other Marines in my office approached me because they were beginning to feel “harassed” and “pressured” into attending Generations Church. I immediately put a stop to all church recruitment activity within the office space.
The Marine who was bent on recruiting members for his church eventually did get a newly arrived PFC to join Generations.
This Marine began to have financial difficulties that caused me some concern. Although the Marine maintained that he would be ok and that he would be taken care of, his finances were suffering. I made arrangements for the Marine to get professional budget and financial counseling, which he attended and later indicated was beneficial.
Eventually, my discussions with the Marine turned to his tithing behaviors and his feelings toward giving money to God. When I inquired how much he “tithed,” the Marine explained that he tithed 10 percent of his gross income. I then asked him how much that came out to be, and he said that he gave somewhere between $250-$300. When I pointed out that a PFC only makes $1,427 a month (10 percent of which is equal to $140), he explained that he was supposed to tithe everything that the government gave him … before taxes.
This is what the government gave him:
-$1,427 for base pay — this is the actual monthly salary taxable by the IRS.
-$850 (approx.) for housing — but the government immediately deducted this money because the Marine lived in base housing, so he never even gets this money.
-$250 (approx.) for food — not taxable.
The Marine was basing his “tithe” on the sum of these payments, even though the Marine was never even seeing the $850 for housing in his paycheck. After all taxes and deductions, the Marine took home barely over $800 per month. To me, a “tithe” of over $250 of a take-home pay of $800 seemed excessive — it was almost 35 percent of his net pay! Yet, the Marine explained, this is what his church taught him.
I told the Marine that I thought he was paying too much for his tithes, and I asked him if I could speak to his pastor about it. The Marine enthusiastically permitted me to speak to the pastor on his behalf, and I made an appointment to do so.
I made an appointment to speak with Rich at Generations Church on Aug. 24, 2006. We spoke for almost two hours, and I became increasingly suspicious of the pastor’s motives. My concern about my Marine’s finances and tithing behavior grew into a concern for everyone who attended Generations.
My blogs are the result of my quest to expose what I believe is a cult that preys on young Marines and civilians in the Yuma community.
Since I’ve started posting blogs regarding my feelings about Generations, the head pastor himself has publicly berated me, called me names, and made threats against my Marine Corps career. His actions and words (and those of many members of the cult) are not only immature, but they are also very unchristian. Examples of what they have said are located throughout my blogs. Somehow, they’re proud of them.
My goal is simple: I aim to increase awareness of the cult-like behavior of Generations Church.
I am more than happy to answer your questions. However, I will not entertain silly and rude comments containing nonsensical and lengthy Bible quotations from cult members.
Sincerely,
John”
November 1st, 2006 at 7:55 am
Alan,
You are correct … each week you hear 8 minutes on tithing which there is no mandate for Christians in the Scriptures. But have you ever heard a sermon from these Pastors on St Pauls two clear mandates:
1 Rom 13:6 “That’s also why you pay taxes—so that an orderly way of life can be maintained. Fulfill your obligations as a citizen. Pay your taxes, pay your bills, respect your leaders”.
1 Tim 5:8 “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.”
Matthew: “Give unto Caesar what is Caesars”
This is why these Churches do not have AGM’s where questions can be asked.
This is beacuse the wolves in sheeps clothing want your cash, and don’t pay their share of taxes like every one else.
Allan, the tax-fiddling is more complex than you think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR1fbRMZGzw
BTW great find Lance.
November 1st, 2006 at 2:42 pm
This is my favourite piece of ‘wisdom’ from Pastor Rich Witmer.
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=16067776&blogID=187044923&Mytoken=0EB199EB-6034-4B13-970E4558DE2E0A2820965573
“Listen, if you’re a Hindu, first I’m gonna make fun of you, automatic.
That is a dumb religion. If you’re a Hindu, and you have the little red dot on your forehead…..did you know that everyone who breaks into my house is a Hindu?
And then I convert ‘em. Don’t shoot. Everyone who breaks into my house is a Hindu.
Because they have a little red dot moving right ’round here on their forehead.
That’s called a laser sight…and then I replace it with a smoking hole.”
November 1st, 2006 at 6:32 pm
Thanks Lionfish.Check out
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2006/04/28/1146198351877.html/
for the extent of the rorting of tax protecion provided to clergy and churches.its suggested that some clergy have so arranged their salaries that they are able to also collect social service payments.