On Respect and Signposts
Recently there has been some discussion on the topic of respect (or lack there of) on Signposts.
Lance had written:
“First of all you don’t demand respect…you earn respect”.
Bec had replied:
”Lance, with respect - that’s bullshit. … That kind of respect is something that should be shown to everyone, irrespective of whether or not you like what they have to say. Nobody has to earn it. We respect others because it provides space for dialogue. We respect others because they too are made in the image of God. We respect others because they have inherent worth”.
I have been pondering these statements in my own mind over the last week - because in many ways both seem right.
Last weekend, I saw an excellent film, “Coach Carter” about an inspirational man who takes a position coaching a losing Basketball team in a tough high school through to enter the finals in the State Championships.
In his first coaching lesson, he had to deal with the issue of respect and made the following statement:
“Each of you has my respect ― until you abuse it!”
Some of the members of the team did abuse the situation and lost the Coach’s respect and their position on the team. Others did not, and as well as retaining the Coaches respect, they also grew in terms of their own ‘Self-respect’.
I thought that summed up the situation, pretty damn well, and consequently - I have changed my own thinking on Respect.
I now see Respect as a ‘Privilege’ and not a ‘Right’.
Deep down, I think we all inherently know this to be true.
People begin with respect, and make deposits or withdrawals to their own “Respect Bank Account”, because as Bec says “they have worth”.
It is written “A man will sow what he reaps”.
And as a consequence, I do think sometimes the lack of respect shown to Contemporary Church leaders on this site by people who once trusted them is entirely understandable.
Or am I wrong-headed?. Should the Concept of Grace always overwhelm this notion? What do you people think?.
October 7th, 2006 at 3:14 pm
It is written “A man will REAP what he SOWS”.
October 7th, 2006 at 4:33 pm
English is a clumsy language on this one. There’s respect (I honor and admire you) and treating others with basic respect (I refuse to deliberately hurt you back no matter what you do to me… I will treat you with some decency because I am a child of God and am called to be like Christ… I won’t be vindictive or embittered toward you because God will judge all in the end).
These are very different things, aren’t they? Respect… and respect. Need to be renamed, probably.
This issue is also complicated by the need to speak out the prophetic message at times, which can sound really harsh. (I think Jesus was passionate in doing so, but it didn’t ever emerge from his personal hangups, out of transference or vindictiveness).
I agree that some leaders written about on this blog have done enough to lose the “honor” bit of respect… I’ve more been concerned occasionally that hapless souls in their churches who try to defend them get clobbered with transference wrath. Maybe I’m wrong…
Mmm… I said I’d drop this topic. The things I do when trying to procrastinate writing a tutorial paper on the Triumphal Entry to Jerusalem. Yep, it’s that end of the semester. Sigh.
October 7th, 2006 at 4:48 pm
I don’t suppose anyone has any good resources on the triumphal entry to Jerusalem?
It’s pathetic, really. I hate trying to study on glorious Spring days. What a waste.
October 7th, 2006 at 5:09 pm
*giggle* It sounded funny the first time I wrote it, it’s funnier now. I hope you got the joke, Lance.
I like Janet’s point in post #2 - English is clumsy, and we need more words for “respect”. Sometimes I say “I really respect X”, and I mean “I hold X in incredibly high regard”. Other times I say “Y deserves respect” and I mean “Y deserves to be treated in a decent manner, even if he/she is a complete tool”…
October 7th, 2006 at 5:45 pm
Being like Jesus:
You are white washed tombs full of death
You are blind guides of the blind
you search the whole world for one convert and make him twice the son of hell as yourself
You are poisonous snakes
You are of your Father the devil
I guess there are times when being like Jesus means we stand up and condemn the pompous, selfrighteous, oppresive ruling class. I guess the trick is not becoming that yourself in the process.
rev
October 7th, 2006 at 6:24 pm
I agree Rev.
Jesus… and a few individuals in history like Martin Luther King Jnr, Nelson Mandela, Ghandi and others, have managed to fight oppression without becoming like the oppressors… not an easy road.
It’s possible to become like those you hate… nitpicky, smug, self righteous, bullying etc.
Yet there is a time for really hard words as the Rev has illustrated. It’s all complicated isn’t it?
October 7th, 2006 at 8:47 pm
Ouch!
October 8th, 2006 at 7:58 am
On the other hand… an important role of Signposts is a forum for those who have been through spiritual abuse, and are legitimately hopping mad. Expression of anger is therapeutic, and working through screwed up ideas in a forum is also extremely helpful. So although I harp on about it from time to time, I prefer the current Signposts (which sometimes has visitors pounced upon too quickly and too harshly for my tastes) to a sanitised, censored, politically correct Signposts.
October 8th, 2006 at 9:11 am
Well may it have been said that a man reaps what he sows but if he gets violent a man will sew what he rips.
I agree with rev and Janet….and lance…and lionfish…and bec…and reve..and luke…and Niel…and blest pickle…and homer?…and Dan…and Phil…and me. If I’ve missed anyone out please don’t feel disrespected - I love you and your work.
We do need on this blog to recognise the difference between the people we rale against (PP
October 8th, 2006 at 10:01 am
Did something eat Greg, mid sentence?
October 8th, 2006 at 10:10 am
half my post went missing - and I can’t remmebr everyting I said - but by crikey it was god!
Stu about respecting the poor hapless individuals who are really being manipulated by people like pringle and houston and not blowing them out fo the water when we are relly wanting to get at pringle et al
October 8th, 2006 at 1:15 pm
Speaking of respect… last week in pennsylvania a deranged and wounded soul went into an Amish school house and killed 5 little girls.. and the families and the communities forgave him.. and even went to mourn him at his funeral. That is an unusual respect to show someone. We have a lot of Amish in our area, they are good people to have around.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061008/ap_on_re_us/amish_school_shooting
October 8th, 2006 at 1:20 pm
well not to sully their obviously beautiful love, it is a lot easier to forgive someone that is dead, than someone who is not only alive, but unrepentent and continueing to abuse others.
rev
October 8th, 2006 at 1:39 pm
You are right Rev. Though I would not underestimate the hurt of the Amish and the courage and strength that it took to defend the offender.
October 8th, 2006 at 1:41 pm
that is absolutley true mate, it is an amazing display of the love of God that they can do this. If they were my children, I am not so sure I could, though I hope I could.
Like I pointed out above though, it is not the same.
rev
October 8th, 2006 at 9:16 pm
It is not easier to forgive someone who is dead. It is easier to live in bitterness when someone is dead. Once someone dies all hope of repentance is dead also, so you are stuck where you were with that person because you cannot confront and reconcile. The memeory of where you were at with them can actully eat at you. How many people today are Stuck in unforgiveness by what their abusive father did to them 50 years ago… 70 years ago.
October 8th, 2006 at 9:26 pm
Ilike the Amish Kevin. they are a good witness to the faith. Albiet a little quaint.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:33 pm
… a little?
October 8th, 2006 at 10:53 pm
I disagree Kevin
rev
October 8th, 2006 at 11:12 pm
BTW I didn’t say that it was easier to forgive a dead man than a live man, I said it was easier to forgive someone who is dead than someone who is alive and unrepentent, and still abusing you and others. Once someone is dead they can’t continue to abuse you or others, and though they cannot say they are sorry, that is no better than someone refusing to say they are sorry.
rev
October 8th, 2006 at 11:15 pm
Shut up guys before I kill you both … and then ask your forgiveness.
October 9th, 2006 at 7:37 am
it is easier to forgive as a dead man, than a live man, atleast if you are in heaven…
rev
October 9th, 2006 at 8:30 am
If we are dead, you can ask all you want Lionfish, but I for one WON”T forgive you. I am not Amish and I don’t have too… and YOU can’t make me. Rev is part Amish i think, so he has to forgive you. Now, I am off to milk the goats.
October 9th, 2006 at 1:41 pm
by their actions the Amish have shown they understand God’s word whilst Westboro baptist have shown no understanding at all.
I would pray we would all have the faith of the Amish.
October 9th, 2006 at 4:37 pm
and the dress sense…I really want to wear grey clothes and bonnets (I’m allowed…) and a beard sans moustache
October 9th, 2006 at 5:29 pm
those guys can’t fight, I could take a whole gang of em by myself.
rev
October 9th, 2006 at 8:22 pm
And after you beat them up…. they would dress your wounded knuckles and forgive you.
October 9th, 2006 at 8:31 pm
there is no bad side to that!!!
rev
October 9th, 2006 at 9:21 pm
They’ll also build you a barn in a single afternoon
October 9th, 2006 at 10:58 pm
before long, you’ll repent, change your name to Levi and start a new EC Amish Ordnund, You’ll be on the Amish speaking circuit, preaching in the largest barns Across the country.