a phone call
Had an abusive phone call today.
An Hillsongs member rang me after reading some of the signposts discussion about Hillsongs.
With a tone that was incredibly aggressive I was told the following:
1. I am providing a space/forum for people to say lies about Hillsongs. People who have held hurts for 20 years and just need to get over it.
2. I must read a different Bible to his because the provision of signposts is unbiblical.
3. I should re-visit my oath as a minister as his Father was an executive minister and so he knows I am not doing what I should as a minister.
4. Hillsongs is attacked and called a cult but no where can see where my Church is attacked or questioned. He felt that I was saying that people should leave Hillsongs and go to my Church.
5. The forum of signposts does not convey the gospel of life but is only about death.
Why am I posting this?
Well frankly I was shocked by the aggression and bullying of this guy who was apparantly was part of the planting team of hillsongs. It is not the first time that Dan or I have received emails regarding the comments that are left on signposts. And to this stage we have not commented about the emails that we have received. But I would like to take this opportunity to say the following:
1/ I can understand how some of the things that are said on signposts would be upsetting to those who are close and/or supportive of the Hillsongs Church.
2/ This blog was not started with the intention of having a community of people who comment so regularly and vigourously about Hillsongs.
3/ I personally have a number of concerns about Hillsongs Church and I am sure (as the guy is going to do!) if Hillsongs members were to review some of my posts about what we do at Northern and my own personal theological discussions, they too will have concerns about me.
4/ I am not responsible (nor is Dan) for the comments on this blog. For us to take responsibility in my opinion, diminishes the very real people who make the comments. Some of these comments I agree with and others I disagree with.
5/ I would like to encourage those who disagree with what is being said about Hillsongs (or anything else for that matter) on signposts to comment and engage in the discussion.
My final comment is this:
The energy levels of Dan and I for signposts goes through cycles. Recently, we have been on annual leave and we have posted very little. But ringing or emailing me or Dan with the aim of pressuring us to stop signposts or to limit discussion only makes me more determined to provide a voice for the voiceless.
I disagree strongly with the assertion that providing a voice for those who are hurt, bitter, excluded, marginlised by anyone is counter to the biblical narrative. In fact I think this is exactly what Jesus is calling us to do.
<end of rant>
February 25th, 2007 at 11:09 pm
Ooops look here:
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~russkellyphd2/id31.html
February 25th, 2007 at 11:18 pm
Luther also taught infant baptism, consubstantiation. and other errors. Although a great reformer, he still had errors. I would prefer to stick with scriptural reasoning when discussing tithing.
Cheers!
Nick.
February 26th, 2007 at 9:39 am
Nick you say:
“Ministers are required to have a web blocker blocking porn, pop ups, and indecent language on the net.”
Surely this is a false morality? Your pastors can’t claim to be pure with respects to the Internet, they can only claim that they have a pornblocker. Doesn’t this defeat the purpose? I much prefer a pastor who can but doesn’t, not because they are blocked from doing it, but because they CHOOSE not to.
Having purity that comes from legalism is easy. Having purity that comes from being cocooned in a Christian bubble is easy. Having purity when it comes down to self-control and choices is a lot harder, but it’s genuine.
Get with the New Covenant. It was an expensive one to institute, it came at the price of Christ’s blood. Leave behind the Old Testament system with all its inadequacies and get into the new era. It’s harder but its better.
February 26th, 2007 at 10:21 am
Errors Nick!!!!
Yes, lets stick to the scriptural reasoning when discussing Tithing …
… next we will tackle infant Baptism FROM the scriptures.
(I used to beileve that infant Baptism was wrong until I studied this also!).
February 26th, 2007 at 2:02 pm
“Having purity that comes from legalism is easy. Having purity that comes from being cocooned in a Christian bubble is easy. Having purity when it comes down to self-control and choices is a lot harder, but it’s genuine.”
Well said …
February 26th, 2007 at 5:41 pm
Thanks for your responses Nick. It is not my intention to attack anyone personally, I think you are a sincere person… and I hope you can assure me that my concerns are unfounded.
Let me first discuss further the issue of “legalism” only relating to the Torah. You said:
“I wholeheartedly agree, but to a strictly legalistic one must be introducing the Old Testament laws into Christianity. Legalism is one of the most misquoted words today, especially in Christendom. People have defined legalism as anything that is a restriction or any rule endorsed by a church. The correct biblical interpretation is that legalism is a term solely dealing with the torah, and nothing whatsoever to do with following the bible strictly, nor is it an admonition or warning to those who quote the bible or its teachings as they stand…. I would be more inclined to say that people who add to the Gospel are basically just that, people who add to the gospel. They are not legalists unless they are trying to incorporate the law of Moses.”
I respectfully disagree… one can be a legalist by adding other “rules” that are not based in the Torah… and are not based in the bible. Paul also opposed those who were attempting to add “harsh treatment of the body” (possibly a form of Stoicism? / Gnosticism?), the necessity to eat and drink… or not eat and drink… (compulsory teetotalism?) New Moon festivals, special knowledge, human traditions (etc. etc.), to the gospel of grace… this is not a legalism from the Torah, but it is still a legalism, and it still detracts from salvation by grace. Paul is stirred up about it enough about this to write a letter to the Colossian church to oppose this. This does not seem to be a letter only about legalisms from Judaism.
Colossians 2: 6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
8See to it that no one takes you captive through HOLLOW AND DECEPTIVE PHILOSOPHY, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[b] God made you[c] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[d]
16 THEREFORE DO NOT LET ANYONE JUDGE YOU BY WHAT YOU EAT OR DRINK, OR WITH REGARD TO A RELIGIOUS FESTIVAL, A NEW MOON CELEBRATION OR A SABBATH DAY. 17 THESE ARE A SHADOW OF THE THINGS THAT WERE TO COME; THE REALITY, HOWEVER, IS FOUND IN CHRIST. 18 DO NOT LET ANYONE WHO DELIGHTS IN FALSE HUMILITY AND THE WORSHIP OF ANGELS DISQUALIFY YOU FOR THE PRIZE. SUCH A PERSON GOES INTO GREAT DETAIL ABOUT WHAT HE HAS SEEN, AND HIS UNSPIRITUAL MIND PUFFS HIM UP WITH IDLE NOTIONS. 19 HE HAS LOST CONNECTION WITH THE HEAD, FROM WHOM THE WHOLE BODY, SUPPORTED AND HELD TOGETHER BY ITS LIGAMENTS AND SINEWS, GROWS AS GOD CAUSES IT TO GROW.
20 SINCE YOU DIED WITH CHRIST TO THE BASIC PRINCIPLES OF THIS WORLD, WHY, AS THOUGH YOU STILL BELONGED TO IT, DO YOU SUBMIT TO ITS RULES: 21 “DO NOT HANDLE! DO NOT TASTE! DO NOT TOUCH!”? 22 THESE ARE ALL DESTINED TO PERISH WITH USE, BECAUSE THEY ARE BASED ON HUMAN COMMANDS AND TEACHINGS. 23 SUCH REGULATIONS INDEED HAVE AN APPEARANCE OF WISDOM, WITH THEIR SELF-IMPOSED WORSHIP, THEIR FALSE HUMILITY AND THEIR HARSH TREATMENT OF THE BODY, BUT THEY LACK ANY VALUE IN RESTRAINING SENSUAL INDULGENCE
“Many seem to think that the New Testament is a book that only set us free from the law to serve under a “grace” that enables us to do whatever we like with Jesus’ approval. People don’t seem to grasp that God has very high standards both in the dispensation of the Law and under Grace. If you compare the 10 commandments with the Sermon on the Mount, you will see that under grace it is STRICTER! Under the law you actually had to kill someone, but under grace you if you just hate someone or have prejudice you are just as guilty! Which is stricter? Under the law you had to commit the very act of adultery but under grace you only have to want to do it! Which is stricter?”
Beware… we are set free from the Mosaic law not so we conform to a new stricter law, but so we live led by the Holy Spirit. This means of course the standards of the new covenant are higher… we are to be led by the Holy Spirit at all times, and to live out of a renewed heart which is filled with the love and goodness of God… our lives will become increasingly like Jesus. But if a church promotes “extra biblical” legalisms, rather than an individual learning to hear from God and obey the Spirit themselves, this can be a terrible stumbling block. I’ll bet everyone on Signposts have met “Christian legalists”… the most boring, stifling, judgmental, un-alive people on earth. They’ve learned all the rules to please God and missed out on knowing Him. It’s a really dangerous road to take… obey the “really godly” leaders who have heard from God, and follow the rules they impose if you want to be REALLY righteous. Paul opposes this as worthless.
Galatians 2: 1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, CHRIST WILL BE OF NO VALUE TO YOU AT ALL. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4YOU WHO ARE TRYING TO BE JUSTIFIED BY LAW HAVE BEEN ALIENATED FROM CHRIST; YOU HAVE FALLEN AWAY FROM GRACE. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. THE ONLY THING THAT COUNTS IS FAITH EXPRESSING ITSELF THROUGH LOVE.
7You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? 8That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9″A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” 10I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be. 11Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16So I say, LIVE BY THE SPIRIT, AND YOU WILL NOT GRATIFY THE DESIRES OF THE SINFUL NATURE. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18BUT IF YOU ARE LED BY THE SPIRIT, YOU ARE NOT UNDER LAW.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
As for excommunication, you quoted Matthew and the brother who refused reconciliation:
“Mt 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.”
Jesus WAS a friend of tax collectors, sinners, and heathens… someone who will not forgive an offence can be excommunicated from church meetings… that does not mean they cannot be associated with. In fact, Jesus did associate with such people… “heathens and publicans”
Excommunication should not mean that noone from the church will befriend someone who leaves… it means they cannot attend church meetings until they are reconciled. Such excommunication should be done very cautiously.
As for “not eating” with false teachers… if you look at the context of most of the other passages you have used, it is talking about teachers of heresy. To house such itinerant teachers would mean in the ancient context that you were financially supporting a heretical teaching ministry.
I do not believe this means you cannot have meals with family members because they do not attend Potters House and have concerns about some of the teachings there… if this occurs, Potters House would be behaving in a cultic fashion.
I’m happy to be reassured the leadership of your church would never promote such unchristian behaviour.
Lastly in relation to television…
I am not concerned about people being weird because they don’t have one… I’m only concerned about legalism. The problem with church communities is that a requirement of leaders comes to be seen as the way all “good” Christians must behave… a strong social pressure to conform can develop.
I have a television. I hardly ever watch it. My kids watch some shows on ABC kids, and they watch selected DVD’s… they never watch commercial TV. They like to play Nintendo games on it. My husband works really long hours… he likes to watch a video once a week on the weekend to relax, and sometimes watches a show in the evenings (like Lateline on the ABC). Nothing about my TV is against my conscience… but by the standards of Potters House I would be disqualified from ministry.
I am all for freedom. I actually believe as people are encouraged to get closer to God they are well able to make good choices without others telling them what their choices must be. Actually, I see this at work all the time… people doing the right thing because God lights them up inside and they’ve learned to listen to the Spirit, not because someone else has told them what to do. People make mistakes… big deal, they learn from them, they grow up into maturity, God still loves them.
I do believe in your sincerity, but I think it’s worth testing all these things and asking God from the heart whether one’s attitudes and beliefs are truly in line with the gospel of grace… or if a sincere desire to please God has turned Pharisaical in emphasis, rather than loving and liberating in emphasis.
February 26th, 2007 at 8:26 pm
Janet, I just gotta say, I pretty much love all your posts. You present your case well, without being condescending or judgemental. Every time I read one I’m truly inspired, because of such a healthy view you seem to take on things that get most people riled up.
In regards to your last 2 paragraphs, I remember reading that the O.T. was training for God’s followers, and that the N.T. is for the new, mature follower. I sort of imagine it as us (humanity) were like little children, and needed very strict rules in order to know what was right and wrong. But along the way, the rules disappeared, and it became an issue of the heart and our own personal morality that helped us choose the right way. I loved my parents very much when I was very little, but I didn’t have much freedom. Now that I am older and do have that freedom, I can relate to my parents a whole lot more. I may have stuffed up several times during my teens, and hell, I still stuff up now, but as with God, I can go to my parents, and they’ll treat me as an adult. They’ll guide me in the right way, but let me make my own choices.
And this is the ultimate freedom, and also the ultimate act of love. My parents love me enough to guide me, but also to not hold me back from understanding life all on my own. I believe it’s the same with God. We could go back to the old laws, which would keep us in spiritual childhood, or we can act through the hearts, minds, souls, and most importantly, free will that God has given us.
However, we can’t have both. It’s one or the other. If I was allowed to do everything by my own decision, but was still told to go to bed at 8:30 like when I was little, then the whole point of me being mature and independent would cancel out. And vice versa. If I was little and did everything my parents told me in order to be in right standing with them, then stayed up past my bedtime, that would still make me a naughty little boy and cancel out the works of good.
This is much harder to explain in analogies than I thought.. .so I might just drop it. Does anyone see my point?
February 27th, 2007 at 6:59 am
Thanks Nick.
Yes… you use a biblical image, actually… Paul uses the image of the young child who is “like a slave” (under law)… but now we have entered a time where we are like fully grown heirs of God, who have entered a new covenant through God’s Spirit. It’s an entirely new relationship based on being led by the Spirit instead of by attempting to please God by works.
Galatians 3: 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[h] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
4: 1What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. 2He is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3So also, WHEN WE WERE CHILDREN, we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world. 4BUT WHEN THE TIME HAD FULLY COME, GOD SENT HIS SON, BORN OF A WOMAN, BORN UNDER LAW, 5TO REDEEM THOSE UNDER LAW, THAT WE MIGHT RECEIVE THE FULL RIGHTS OF SONS. 6BECAUSE YOU ARE SONS, GOD SENT THE SPIRIT OF HIS SON INTO OUR HEARTS, THE SPIRIT WHO CALLS OUT, “ABBA, FATHER.” 7So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.
8Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—HOW IS IT THAT YOU ARE TURNING BACK TO THOSE WEAK AND MISERABLE PRINCIPLES? DO YOU WISH TO BE ENSLAVED BY THEM ALL OVER AGAIN? 10YOU ARE OBSERVING SPECIAL DAYS AND MONTHS AND SEASONS AND YEARS! 11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.
12I plead with you, brothers, become like me, for I became like you. You have done me no wrong. 13As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you. 14Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. 15What has happened to all your joy? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. 16Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?
17Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us, so that you may be zealous for them. 18It is fine to be zealous, provided the purpose is good, and to be so always and not just when I am with you. 19My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, 20how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you!
21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.
24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:
“Be glad, O barren woman,
who bears no children;
break forth and cry aloud,
you who have no labor pains;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”[b]
28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”[c] 31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
February 27th, 2007 at 7:05 am
er… I mean, thanks emanresu!
(Not so “inspiring” now am I?!!!! Can’t even get names right!!!)
February 27th, 2007 at 7:59 am
That’s ok Lance… um.. I mean Janet!
February 28th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
Mayby your abusive phone call was from someone you know? or think you know? Could it be the group of Pastors associated with the AOG team that are monitering this site????
whooooowww Lance - pretty scary stuff!!
Mayby you should take a hard think!!
Stil interested in the meeting Lance?
Friday night or Sunday Morning?? take your pick!
Open your eyes Lance!!!
February 28th, 2007 at 2:57 pm
“Stil interested in the meeting Lance?
Friday night or Sunday Morning?? take your pick!
Open your eyes Lance!!!”
Suppose I were to meet with you …I couldn’t just stroll into Sunset Coast and shout out ‘hello?….hello? is there anyone here who uses the fake name LEWIS?’
So since you won’t identify yourself…any talk of a meeting is a bit silly.
February 28th, 2007 at 3:35 pm
I think if LEWIS is serious about meeting Lance to discuss the issues and not just setting Lance up for a hammering, then it should happen in a neutral location. If Lewy is really genuine of course, and not just out for a bit of poofter-bashing.
March 1st, 2007 at 9:11 am
There is an expression “don’t feed the troll” and I am concerend that specualtion about LEWIS’ identity is actually feeding her game. If she wants to tell us let her otherwise I’m not going to play.
March 1st, 2007 at 9:37 am
I think there is a pseudo echo out there?
March 2nd, 2007 at 3:26 pm
Lance- so you have no idea who rang you?
March 2nd, 2007 at 6:07 pm
Who rang me?
What are you talking about?
March 3rd, 2007 at 3:27 pm
Its good that nobody rang you Lance- and that you have no idea who it was from! Praise the Lord!!!
Lance- this is such a fun game!!
now were getting technical!!!
Let the good times roll lance- until you decide to meet me!
godbless
March 3rd, 2007 at 3:46 pm
Lewis,
are you talking about the phone call in the title of this thread? Because if so, that wasn’t a call to Lance, it was a call to Phil.