a phone call
Had an abusive phone call today.
An Hillsongs member rang me after reading some of the signposts discussion about Hillsongs.
With a tone that was incredibly aggressive I was told the following:
1. I am providing a space/forum for people to say lies about Hillsongs. People who have held hurts for 20 years and just need to get over it.
2. I must read a different Bible to his because the provision of signposts is unbiblical.
3. I should re-visit my oath as a minister as his Father was an executive minister and so he knows I am not doing what I should as a minister.
4. Hillsongs is attacked and called a cult but no where can see where my Church is attacked or questioned. He felt that I was saying that people should leave Hillsongs and go to my Church.
5. The forum of signposts does not convey the gospel of life but is only about death.
Why am I posting this?
Well frankly I was shocked by the aggression and bullying of this guy who was apparantly was part of the planting team of hillsongs. It is not the first time that Dan or I have received emails regarding the comments that are left on signposts. And to this stage we have not commented about the emails that we have received. But I would like to take this opportunity to say the following:
1/ I can understand how some of the things that are said on signposts would be upsetting to those who are close and/or supportive of the Hillsongs Church.
2/ This blog was not started with the intention of having a community of people who comment so regularly and vigourously about Hillsongs.
3/ I personally have a number of concerns about Hillsongs Church and I am sure (as the guy is going to do!) if Hillsongs members were to review some of my posts about what we do at Northern and my own personal theological discussions, they too will have concerns about me.
4/ I am not responsible (nor is Dan) for the comments on this blog. For us to take responsibility in my opinion, diminishes the very real people who make the comments. Some of these comments I agree with and others I disagree with.
5/ I would like to encourage those who disagree with what is being said about Hillsongs (or anything else for that matter) on signposts to comment and engage in the discussion.
My final comment is this:
The energy levels of Dan and I for signposts goes through cycles. Recently, we have been on annual leave and we have posted very little. But ringing or emailing me or Dan with the aim of pressuring us to stop signposts or to limit discussion only makes me more determined to provide a voice for the voiceless.
I disagree strongly with the assertion that providing a voice for those who are hurt, bitter, excluded, marginlised by anyone is counter to the biblical narrative. In fact I think this is exactly what Jesus is calling us to do.
<end of rant>
January 13th, 2007 at 11:38 pm
Lance writes “Nick Sayers, our first fall-on no-holds-barred cult follower at Signposts”.
No we had a few including Embalzoned (now reformed) and we currently have SilentBob as well.
January 14th, 2007 at 7:48 am
Mmmm… not so sure about that. There are churches that exhibit SOME cult like characteristics (e.g. charismatic, controlling leadership) without others (we’re the only church that is right, we’re the only church, we exercise unreasonable control over ordinary members, we have a long list of “extra biblical” legalisms you must follow, we direct you to completely disown people who leave our group, etc.)
I wouldn’t call Hillsong a cult… it might operate in some “cult like” ways, but not enough to make this an accurate description… it doesn’t operate in all the ways I’ve described. I don’t think the discussion is helped by throwing around less than accurate terms… it just throws fuel on the fire. Actually, I don’t feel I know enough about Potter’s House to confidently call it a cult, although it has a heck of a lot of the hallmarks of one based on what’s been posted here.
January 14th, 2007 at 8:57 am
“Cult” or “Cult-Like”.
It’s only a matter of opinion and less than one degree of separation.
I believe that CCC and Hillsong are Cults. They employ teachers of error on big $dollars (such and non-trinitarian TD Jakes) to speak as authorities, they abuse, they ‘rip-people’ off through false tithe teaching and become God’s Millionairres in the process, they do not anser hard questions (eg. SilentBob) and try to make people conform to their ‘CULTure’.
Anyway, we need more FIRE. It’s what keeps blogging interesting.
January 14th, 2007 at 9:42 am
Even though I’ve not gone for about 7 months now, I still miss Christian City Cult. Everything has been going so much better in my life since I’ve left, but it’s damn hard to get the knives out of my back. As someone who has worked there, studied there and worshiped there for over 8 years I feel comfortable saying that it’s a cult. Everything is wrong with it, from tithing, to false doctrine, to the abuse, but the thing that stands out the most at me is the fact that the more you go to the church, the more holy you must be. So as soon as I skipped a week I got shit for it… now I’m not even worth talking to.
Silentbob, I had a feeling you would know who I am. Don’t bother with the questions from Lionfish (sorry Lion) as that’s not going to help you. What you really need to do is get as close to Jesus as you can, and try to imagine what he would be doing, and what he would say to the church.
It took 2 years of being unhappy before I left, and even if you don’t feel you need to leave, I’m sure you’ll have a more open-mind to everything, and not just eat everything they spoon-feed you.
As for the phone call, that really sucks. I know there are hurt people in the church, but if that was from an official… then damn.
January 14th, 2007 at 10:04 am
“the thing that stands out the most at me is the fact that the more you go to the church, the more holy you must be.”
That was similar to one of the reasons why I gave up on the church … which I call the ‘greyhound lure’ existence.
It doesn’t matter how fast you sprint around the track, you can’t catch the lure…with pond-scum pastors saying we always need to go to ‘the next level’..whatever that is.
You’re told for 45 minutes each week how you don’t measure up ..in your finances, in your prayer life, in your relationships, in your Christian walk………. and if you do get all those things humming.. then you’ll still be told each week how you don’t measure up, in your finances, in your prayer life, in your relationships, in your Christian walk……………
I just switched on the CCC Oxford Falls live 10am service…and the first words I heard were…’how to push forward in your life’.
It’s all such bullshit.
January 14th, 2007 at 11:12 am
Damn Phil, rough phonecall. it’s hard putting up with that stuff. I’m kinda with the Rev though. Give him my contact details, I want to have a word with him…
January 14th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
emanresu,
“Don’t bother with the questions from Lionfish (sorry Lion) as that’s not going to help you”.
Asking and answering questions (Truthfully) helped Jane, Emblazoned and myself escape from the Matrix.
I also think that SilentBob is a devotee, and not a tortured soul looking for Truth. Not at this point in time anyway.
BTW: What makes you miss CCC …?
January 14th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
Emanresu….Hans/Frans…. I wish I had been involved in your area when you were at CCC. From what I saw you were a very hardworking and talented person. I know the leadership style you were directly under and I agree with you 100% about how it was. It was not good. Thankfully that person is no longer around. I also know who you work for now and after 15 years of working in the same industry I have recently begun to move out of it. My point being, only certain types of people can survive it. You certainly have what it takes. Me, well, after 15 years, other things become more important. The hours and demands it places on you are more for the single or un-married man.
I have been at CCC for 7 years now. I am ‘black listed’ by some dpartment heads because I have spoken up on numerous occasions. I’m about to go in for another round about an issue that directly affects me and many members of the music dept but that’s not a story for the leaky shores of signposts. Suffice to say I have not one but two legal representatives who are specialists in their field beside me and I believe I speak for many in the same boat at the moment.
I love CCC. I have spent 7 years turning up early for sound checks. I have spent days without adequate sleep hanging from the rigging doing what I love to do for them. I have petitioned each of the senior pastors for various changes to operational practices from time to time, and I am still there. If you felt you had no choice but to leave then I am truly sorry. I respect your decision and will never hassle you about it. I do what I do for God’s glory, not anyone else’s.
As for the fish…. yeah I thought there was a funky smell around here. Oh, damn, now he won’t respect me. Well, as Cuba Gooding Jnr so excellently put it in Jerry McGuire… boo-f#@king-hoo.
Woo! Finally a movie reference on Signposts that doesn’t plaigiarise The Matrix! Fishy needs a new bit.
Go SilentBob!
January 14th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
Go! SilentBob Go!,
Have you challenged you Leadership on issues such as the dodgy doctrine of Tithing (the financial camshaft that drives the business model), of Financial Transparency or accountability? Have you asked for detailed financial statements on related entities…? Have you challenged the flow of money on the luctrative speaking circuit that turns Pastors into “God’ Millionairres” Have you asked for clarification as to why they Senior Pastors make conflicting statements in media on ‘how they make their money’?…
Come on SilentBob - you even ignore the simplest of my questions and you act like a Cult devotee…
You came on this site promising to engage in discussion if people treated you respectfully - but as soon as someone shoots some ‘hard’ questions at you about your organisation you slide right down that greasy pole you try to climb, and do to me, exactly what you claim Signposts to to pro-CCC/Hillsong/etc people that appear on this site…
Infact my post was an opportunity to demonstrate that your organisation is not a cult or a family owned Business that you are addicted/enslaved to.
You want a fresh corny movie reference - then OK, Go SilentBob - stay with your ‘Saved’ group of friends, use a few really cool “F- words” to demonstrate that you are cool and to try and prove that you are not in a cult, and be sure that from your perspective that ‘God is on my (your) side’.
http://www.infilm.com.au/reviews/godonmyside.htm
http://www.savedmovie.com/
January 14th, 2007 at 7:18 pm
Ok, I’m scared now, Silentbob. Now I’m trying to figure out who you are and how the hell you figured out who I was. My only guess is that we know each other quite well, as I haven’t really given any personal details.
Lion, you make a good point that the hard questions are what helped you. For me they aren’t what woke me up, but more or less what held me steadfast when I so wanted to go back. What makes me miss it is the feeling of acceptance I got. However, when I realised that I only got that acceptance from doing the work for them, that’s when I really started to question my involvement. I couldn’t live up to the life of bending over backwards constantly for people. I remember when I first left my mum gave me a word (she’s somewhat prophetic… but this isn’t a prophesy post, so don’t bother with any debate about that) that said that God recognized that the entire time I thought I was doing it for him. I was letting myself get used, because it’s what God wanted of me.
She also said that when I saw the light, the abuse, the people being walked over, I would do something about it, and people would listen and follow. The business side of the church would change dramatically, rather than being pretty much the shoddiest business. (The business side is what killed me, my problems with the other side of the church probably wouldn’t have been enough to push me away). That hasn’t happened yet, but I don’t think my time at CCC is over. While I’m out of it I’m starting to see people for who they really are. There are some truly wonderfull people at CCC, but I can’t go back yet. The facade that everyone puts up is probably the biggest thing that is holding the church back.
I think another thing that kept me away was that I was asked to help with a certain Change production. It was something that would’ve taken me approximately 40-something hours to do within a months timeframe. The person who asked me to do it said they had prayed and God had told them that I was to do it.
Surely God was aware that I was working 12 hour days, and would not be able to do the project at home, only at work.
I refrained from doing anything with it, and didn’t let them know. For a while I felt really guilty that I had said yes to something and then stuffed them up by not doing anything. Afterwards I got to the mindset that it was just another subtle form of abuse… to tell someone that God has told you that they need to do it. As a corny TV reference, I’d like to quote Michell Tanner from Full House: “Puh lease!”
Anyways, bob, whoever you may be (I have a few ideas), I appreciate the fact that you’re there doing what you do for God and not for man, or for glory, or for the mini-pedastle they put you on when you do what they want. However, I feel truly sorry that you have to have legal representatives in order to get what’s right and just.
Lion, I love the movie “Saved”. It’s probably in my favourite top 20. Lot’s of really good things that open your eyes a bit in that movie.
Ok, I’m beginning to rant. I feel like I have so much to say, but I can’t get it out cohesively… at least not in a post that won’t take you half an hour to read.
January 14th, 2007 at 7:57 pm
OK, I just went to McDonald’s and spent the entire time thinking who you could be. To prove to lion that you can actually answer the tough questions, I would like to know: How do you know where I work? How long have you worked at CCC? If I said the name “Chinese Leprechaun” would you know who I’m talking about? Were you and I friends, or at the very least, acquaintances? What do you in fact no about me, and are you willing to let me know who you are?
Ok, back to my fatty treats now.
January 14th, 2007 at 7:58 pm
lol… it’s cool emanresu… we don’t actually know each other, but we have some common friends at CCC. I know about your work from your myspace. I’ll message you later so you know who I am.
Can anyone confirm that my posts are coming through in English? Perhaps the reason fishtank can’t understand the phrase “I will not engage you” is because my posts are coming through in Polish, or worse…. in tongues???
fishy…if i respected you at all I might care about what you think of me. I think I have a whole lot more respect for Lance than you. At least Lance makes his intentions towarda you clear right away. You on the other hand “welcome” almost every new poster here that holds contary beliefs to you but pretty soon you get all Mr. Burns on them and release the hounds. I think I trust you about as far as I can throw you and, given the apparent weight of your ego, that wouldn’t be very far.
But anyway… me? Cool? Not for the last 30 odd years.
January 14th, 2007 at 8:21 pm
Common friends… myspace… message me later! This is all a bit much for me to take in, especially considering there’s 2 fire engines and a cop car with their lights on at the apartment building next to me.
You’re posts are coming through in English, however considering the political correctness of today’s society, you might want to put all your posts through a law translator, just so it can be abundantly clear.
January 14th, 2007 at 8:26 pm
Ok, checked my myspace space… You were in the top 5 of the people I thought it might be. I knew where you previously worked, which is what got me on to you. However, I think the name silentbob is extremely false advertising. Now I’m going to read your posts knowing who you are and then when I run into at Warringah mall (which is bound to happen) it probably won’t be as awkward as it would be if we didn’t really know who each other were.
January 14th, 2007 at 8:31 pm
Advertising??? ***shudder***
January 14th, 2007 at 8:41 pm
Yeah… I did a 39 hour shift at work 2 weeks before Christmas… I shudder at the mere word as well, but work does give me free toast in the morning, so it’s TOTALLY worth it.
January 14th, 2007 at 8:50 pm
Free toast? Is that all??? Where I used to work we had a fully professional kitchen, a full time chef and 4 ‘runners’ (read: coffe lackies) Man, I put on 9 kg’s in my first 6 months there and only 1 kg of it was ego. Breakfast, lunch, dinner and everything in between (second breakfast and elevensies included).
I just had to get out of dealing with agencies. I began feel afraid that I might develop a Tourette’s style syndrome toward certain “creatives” and producers from certain agencies. Don’t get me wrong, there were some great people that I did get to work with. Thankfully most of them have come with me to my new gig but the one’s that I didn’t like I REEEEAALLLY didn’t like. I still have flashbacks when I see some of their ads on TV. But it;s cool, your employer was not one of my nemesii.
January 14th, 2007 at 8:59 pm
Yeah, you guys have it really set up. I’ve been there a few times, and I must say, the food there is amazing. I’m not surprised you put on 9Kg’s at all.
We also get free coffee in the morning, but other then that they’re quite stingy. It’s a shame. However, I love the people I work with, we’re like a really small happy family. There’s only a few people at work that I don’t like dealing with, but fortunately, it’s not that often.
However, I’ve only been there for 6 months… ask me in several years time (if I make it) and it might be a story very much like yours.
January 14th, 2007 at 10:07 pm
emblazoned said:
I’ve seen your photo emblazoned - a word is all you’d have with him!!! LOL
January 14th, 2007 at 10:17 pm
Advertising - no wonder you like it at CCC - pond scum feeding on the desires of others, making kids feel they can’t get on without the latest wotsit or jigermi-thing. How do you sleep at night? you’ll notice the lack of smiley face - and no LOL!
January 14th, 2007 at 10:34 pm
SilentBob,
I was not going to dignify yet another insufficient comment with a response – yet as you again tried to assassinate my character (again) with the same accusations of being ego-centric and ‘always having to be right’, as those critics accused Luther, but due to my own “weighty ego” - I cannot help but take that as compliment.
Naturally, I welcome all new posters – all are welcome for intelligent debate and discussion. When new posters demonstrate ignorance and dodge the hard questions then they will natrally ‘lose me’.
At least Emblazoned and Kevin (whom I often disagree with) have a go at answering the difficult questions. And Emblazonoed had sufficient intelligence, sincerity and courage to step up to the plate and address the challenges presented to him - and look at how far he hes come!
.
My intentions have never been to destroy, but to promote an awareness of the variant ‘prosperity’ message of the Contemporary Church/WOF teaching its Business model, and its consequences on lives with the clear, message of Grace as presented in the Gospel.
I have never asked to be trusted. All too often I have asked the contrary!….
I ask you NOT to trust Lionfish, or your own Super Pastor, as I ask all to search the scriptures (like a Berean in Acts 17:11, Gal 1:9) and look at all facts that I present to TEST and see as to what I assert and say is True.
Lets both agree to treat each other will a level of chivalry and intelligence. As I said previously, the questions that I posed in Post #338 were an opportunity for you to articulate and intelligent defense of your organisation in the face of some questionable teaching/teachers. (1 Peter 3:15 - if you are sincere).
On the occasions where I have been wrong (as ‘Halieus’ previously corrected me on the area of Freewill), unlike your ‘Anointed Leaders’, I will stand corrected. Similarly on occasions with Mike O’Neill or Haydn Nelson (when Phil.Baker.net has some life still in it). I also thank God for Lutheran Pastors that have corrected me and shown me how to interpret the bible applying proper principles of hermenutics and exegesis).
My Ego, aside SilentBob, where I am wrong, I will stand corrected, or will seek to understand if presented with a viable alternative viewpoint. Have the courage to challenge me on specific issues …
Again, I ask you NOT to trust me but to answer the ‘hard’ questions presented to you and to seek to Test what I espouse is True. Correct me where I am wrong.
God knows what the Contemporary Church needs now is Truth (including financial and theological integrity and scriptural literacy) coupled with Grace - freedom from the abuses associated with Dead Works (‘The Greyhound Lure’ Gospel) and Law (including accessory doctrines such as tithing) in Christ Jesus.
In the words of Martin Luther,
January 15th, 2007 at 12:07 am
Greg,
:’(
January 15th, 2007 at 8:38 am
Hey Emanresu,
Just reading your post where you were approached by a CCC member & told that God had told them what you had to do. I agree with you this is dodgy & equalling spiritual abuse.
A couple of years ago i attended a cult workshop run by a man whom had been a member for over a decade with the notorious cult “The Family” otherwise known as “The Children of God”.
He said that the only ethical way to relay a message you think you’ve recieved from God for another person is to provide them with the details & allow them to interperet it themselves.
For instance: “Dave, i had this dream the other night, i feel it was from God & for you, here’s the details & you can decide for yourself it it makes any sense”
But of course. CCC would never do it that way, how could you control & manipulate ppl if you left it that loose?
January 15th, 2007 at 10:09 am
Q: How do you move a mountain?
A: A shovelful at a time.
It seems to me Silentbob has the courage of his convictions to challenge CCC leadership in the area that is most pressing to him at the moment, and that he is treating that with the utmost seriousness.
LF has posed some questions SB may wish to look into sometime… but to use another analogy, sometimes in war you don’t want to fight on too many fronts at once! So it’s best to pick your battles at any given time.
Personally, I think it’s a good thing there are people on the inside at CCC willing to chip away, ask hard questions, and right some wrongs.
January 15th, 2007 at 11:38 am
I agree with you Janet,
Just because some of us fled when we saw concerning things dosen’t mean everyone should. If someone has the fortitude to be amongst coercion, manipulation & shallowness, where their arguments will never find support because of social & political fear, if they are not concerned about their eventual mental health, then, yeah i take my hat off to them.
It’s just that in my experience, unless you have the most amazing sense of self assurance & belief that can stand up when all those around you will tell you that you are the problem, you won’t make it.
You don’t see things clearly until you get some distance. Whilever you’re still “in”, you’re objectivity is compromised.
Maybe we can have a new thread :”Trojans in the Church” or “Undercover in the Christian City”
January 15th, 2007 at 11:44 am
I’d hope we could pray for SB in his serious confrontation with CCC… and not just criticise!
I know LF thinks it’s all irredeemable, but I like to believe that God is patient, and kind, and ever willing to work for our life and health… and for the life and health of His church.
January 15th, 2007 at 11:48 am
It’s just that in my experience, unless you have the most amazing sense of self assurance & belief that can stand up when all those around you will tell you that you are the problem, you won’t make it.
To quote SB:
I am ‘black listed’ by some department heads because I have spoken up on numerous occasions. I’m about to go in for another round about an issue that directly affects me and many members of the music dept but that’s not a story for the leaky shores of signposts. Suffice to say I have not one but two legal representatives who are specialists in their field beside me
He sounds like he might have the ticker for the job!
January 15th, 2007 at 11:52 am
When did I say its ‘irreedemable’???
I am hoping for change - otherwise I would not waste my time.
January 15th, 2007 at 11:57 am
I was once under the influence of a man who it took me years to understand AFTER i left his organisation, every time it would go like this:
I would walk in to his office with a very valid point about something i had concerns about. And it would be something really obvious that any reasonable person might call into question. By the time i left i would be feeling like a loose-cannon & a trouble-maker, like i had failed to understand his vision & what he was trying to do & that i was still learning what it meant to be a team member.
I’d get half way down the stairs & stop & ask myself “what just happened there!”….. none of my questions had been answered & he had me walking out the door feeling like i barely deserved to be a member of his organisation.
The point is, when your social & political survival within an organisation depends on unquestioning loyalty, THAT to me is your reason to leave.
It took years afterwards before i fully realised the mechanics of what this man used to do to me. Alot of reading & alot of research & talking in cafe’s (there was no signposts back then) with other ppl whom had had exactly the same experience with the same person.
My personal opinion is that when it comes to this kind of thing, you under a spell until you are definitively NOT under a spell. That the healing only BEGINS to start when you get distance.
January 15th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
Apologies LF… although I sometimes get the impression that you think CCC and their ilk are so cult like and deluded they will never change and that those attempting to work for change on the inside are wasting their time. So I’ve confused your rather hardline convictions for despair. I encourage you to plug away at the system.
I think you sometimes give the impression of disrespect for others when they don’t agree with you or don’t want to discuss an issue. Well, it’s a free country. I don’t think it hurts to pose a question then give people time to sit with that. Passion is good… appearing to patronise those who don’t instantly adopt your views is not so good.
And Reve… your point is perfectly valid and I’m probably one of those people too who would be fodder for manipulation because I hate a fight… I’m a peacemaker by nature. But I think some probably have what it takes to do pick a fight on the inside and to call a manipulator’s bluff… at least, I hope so.