a phone call
Had an abusive phone call today.
An Hillsongs member rang me after reading some of the signposts discussion about Hillsongs.
With a tone that was incredibly aggressive I was told the following:
1. I am providing a space/forum for people to say lies about Hillsongs. People who have held hurts for 20 years and just need to get over it.
2. I must read a different Bible to his because the provision of signposts is unbiblical.
3. I should re-visit my oath as a minister as his Father was an executive minister and so he knows I am not doing what I should as a minister.
4. Hillsongs is attacked and called a cult but no where can see where my Church is attacked or questioned. He felt that I was saying that people should leave Hillsongs and go to my Church.
5. The forum of signposts does not convey the gospel of life but is only about death.
Why am I posting this?
Well frankly I was shocked by the aggression and bullying of this guy who was apparantly was part of the planting team of hillsongs. It is not the first time that Dan or I have received emails regarding the comments that are left on signposts. And to this stage we have not commented about the emails that we have received. But I would like to take this opportunity to say the following:
1/ I can understand how some of the things that are said on signposts would be upsetting to those who are close and/or supportive of the Hillsongs Church.
2/ This blog was not started with the intention of having a community of people who comment so regularly and vigourously about Hillsongs.
3/ I personally have a number of concerns about Hillsongs Church and I am sure (as the guy is going to do!) if Hillsongs members were to review some of my posts about what we do at Northern and my own personal theological discussions, they too will have concerns about me.
4/ I am not responsible (nor is Dan) for the comments on this blog. For us to take responsibility in my opinion, diminishes the very real people who make the comments. Some of these comments I agree with and others I disagree with.
5/ I would like to encourage those who disagree with what is being said about Hillsongs (or anything else for that matter) on signposts to comment and engage in the discussion.
My final comment is this:
The energy levels of Dan and I for signposts goes through cycles. Recently, we have been on annual leave and we have posted very little. But ringing or emailing me or Dan with the aim of pressuring us to stop signposts or to limit discussion only makes me more determined to provide a voice for the voiceless.
I disagree strongly with the assertion that providing a voice for those who are hurt, bitter, excluded, marginlised by anyone is counter to the biblical narrative. In fact I think this is exactly what Jesus is calling us to do.
<end of rant>
January 15th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
Janet said “but I like to believe that God is patient, …Oh yeah sure - show us the scripture for THAT one….God is patient, next you’ll come up with “God is love evryone we should love people, stop being so unloving, you’re so unloving lionfish, silent boob is so nice and patient and loving and soft and cuddly…and bald and nice and cuddly…did I say nice and bald?
January 15th, 2007 at 5:08 pm
awww.. Greggie… is that the best you can do??? Boobs and Bald! Cracker! You slay me.
Careful, you may bring on bouts of chortling again.
January 15th, 2007 at 5:27 pm
I’m not at my best just at the moment…I can do better - I’m just trying to be nice. Chortling is fine by me -it’s the guffawing that really gets my goat
January 15th, 2007 at 7:07 pm
Janet hurt my feelings.
January 16th, 2007 at 8:53 am
God is love everyone, we should love people!
Guffaw, guffaw.
I know… I’m just a namby pamby wussy girl.
LF… not intended.
I spent years and years digging into creation / evolution etc. and went through quite a process of research in doing so. And there’s a bit of me that wants to blow someone away as an ignorant fool if they can’t see it my way at the end of a 5 minute discussion.
Ah yes, but they may also have spent years and years building a world view and investing emotionally in a set of beliefs. It’s unrealistic for people to change suddenly… they haven’t walked the journey I have… even if they can’t adequately respond to my questions on the spot they may not be ready to embrace my view of the world instantly. In fact, they almost certainly won’t.
I know you’ve done your homework and are really passionate about people profiteering deceptively from “God’s work”… I applaud that, keep the fire burning. It’s a tricky business being passionate about righteousness while being respectful of the journey of others… a journey which may take more time than we’d like.
If I’ve misinterpreted passion as disrespect I do apologise.
January 16th, 2007 at 8:59 am
there you go Janet - you got my goat…it will be in the mail as soon as I can catch it.
Chortle Chortle, tee hee tee hee,
at least there was no sniggering or tittering
January 16th, 2007 at 9:13 am
I find chortling is most appropriate at signposts. Sniggering is best done behind someone’s back.
I agree with what Janet has said about world views, but you must also be prepared for the reality that someone (like me for instance) will probably never come around to your world view. When you meet those people are you going to get all Mr Burns on them or are you just going to accept the fact that there are some things in this life you can’t change? And given that I believe in the same God, the same journey to salvation and the same Saviour, does it really matter in the grand scheme of things? Because what I don’t think you understand fully is that while “CCC” or “Hillsong” and their methods may be your target, they are both comprised of a whole lot of real people who love God with their whole heart. This is what would upset a lot of Pro CCC/Hillsongers, the perception that you are attacking people rather than a church entity.
January 16th, 2007 at 9:50 am
For myself… it is precisely because of love for the people of God that I’d hope the structures can be challenged and purified.
I think that the Pentecostal churches have huge potential in the Kingdom of God… in them you find people who are passionate about the bible, committed to evangelism, who love God, who believe in living in obedience to the Holy Spirit, who believe in the ministry of all believers, who believe in exercising the gifts of the Holy Spirit… they an unstoppable combination.
So… if I were the devil I’d go… mmm… let’s see if I can seduce a few leaders in this movement to get carried away with their own self-importance and forget they follow a crucified Lord who said “the greatest among you must be the servant of all”. Let’s seduce them so they feel entitled and act like CEO’s. That might make the movement fall into disrepute. Oh, and I’ll introduce the false but seductive idea of prosperity doctrine, so the people will come to believe wealth is a sign of God’s blessing. When they hit financial hardship they might despair and give up their faith altogether… ha ha! That might stop them!
I can’t speak for anyone else… but for me it is concern for the people of God and the True Church that makes me support those who ask the “prophetic” challenging questions of the leaders of some churches. God wants to purify His church… no two ways about it.
Some may feel attacked along the way… I think that’s a shame, but probably inevitable in the case of those who are so heavily invested in their church they are incapable of being even a little objective about it. In dialogue the issues can get teased out, but that’s difficult for them to do.
And yes… I have well and truly learned to live with the fact that people have differing views from me and always will, and God still loves them, and that if they believe in Jesus that which unites us is greater than that which divides us.
January 16th, 2007 at 10:29 am
Reve - re: your post at 59, I’ve experienced that in other faith-based organisations too. It seems to me that once you add the “God factor”, it’s much easier to make people feel guilty, like they’re not just undermining “the plan”, but that they’re undermining GOD’S plan!!
January 16th, 2007 at 10:58 am
SB I know that sometimes we do appear to attack peopoe - but mostly it is a philosophy and lifestyle and leadership that we are attacking.
January 16th, 2007 at 11:03 am
Yeah, I know that Greg…. although the lines do get very blurred sometimes. Problem being most won’t stick around to find out if the initial hospitality is lacking. Again, perception is the key. If people feel wanted and that they can contribute in a place then they will stay.
January 16th, 2007 at 12:01 pm
Thanks Bec # 69
Yes, it’s commom amongst cult leader type personalities to experience any questioning as outright hostility & if spirituality (that which cannot be proven on earth) is involved then it is definitely used as a weapon.
The relationship is shallow with any man like this because it is completely dependent on consistent agreement with him & unquestioning loyalty, there is no “glue” that holds them together under any type of conflict.
The thing is , from what i’ve read, Silent Bob knows this already as he’s already had this experience with many of the men from CCC, but for some reason he considers these acceptable flaws & wishes to continue challenging from within. I wonder if he realises they can NEVER agree with him, it is not in their interests, it would be like socio-political death to them.
A great book to read (& i’ve said it before) is Anthony Storr’s “Feet of Clay” THE book for anyone wanting to understand the charismatic spiritual leader & his abuses. Storr says these men are incapable of having real friendships becauise the constant threat is always there that those surrounding them are only around out of fear (connected & plugged in for social survival), the other side of the coin of course being that they are not fearful enough, & are soon gotten rid of.
It’ a lose-lose.
They do not have friends, only followers, they are in actuality very isolated & lonely individuals, but power is like the air they breathe so they can’t give it up.
How many “real” friends would you say PP has, SB? I mean, that aren’t afraid of falling out of his favour? And his son’s, how many of their mates are comfortable to disagree significantly in any way with the heirs to the throne?
I’ll bet that’s a difficult question to answer, but please do, honestly, because it is these people who set the culture of the church you have chosen.
And when you have answered that question answer this one, what real chances do you feel there are that those in your church would give up the power & influence they hold to see any sense that you are presenting?
Come on, now……
January 16th, 2007 at 12:24 pm
Hi SilentBob,
You say that your views will not change – but what would it take to demonstrate that what you are involved in has a high probability of being a network of family owned Business franchises that sell ‘Religious (Experiences For) Entertainment’.
http://dogfightatbankstown.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/web_2.jpg
http://dogfightatbankstown.typepad.com/blog/2006/05/google_is_god.html
If the CCC/Hillsong/et al Churches were serious about theology it would not host TD Jakes.
If it was serious about integrity it would at least publish its financials on its website (or distribute them to Members and anyone who asks) – as World Vision, The School of St Jude, Gideons and most other organisations that demonstrate that (whilst they are not perfect) they are not afraid of being accountable and transparent.
Let’s leave TD Jakes aside for a moment…
As you are aware, CCC also hosted Benny Hinn, (whom Brian Houston and “Dr.” Joyce Meyer also share the stage with).
Jeff Mullen from 60 Minutes concluded:
You can see a documentary on how Benny Hinn operates here:
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/main_miracles.html
If Hillsong / CCC was serious bout Theology and Integrity above and beyond delivering an entertaining and profitable ‘show’ why would it host heretics such as TD Jakes, Benny Hinn?
I can’t change you views, unless you are sincere enough to put your loyalties, your community your emotions aside and examine the facts.
Many have. I was in your position two years ago – and I hated the fact that Lance was threatening what I liked and what I believed, but I tested what he was saying, looked at the facts, asked questions and made the decision to speak out.
Jane did the same thing, as did Emblazoned as are a couple from CCC here in Perth who have made contact and want to g through everything that I have found out over the past 18 months.
Please don’t see this as being disrespectful – but it’s your choice, and it’s a hard decision, but perusing Truth is persuing Jesus for He is (the) Truth.
January 16th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
“Silent Bob knows this already as he’s already had this experience with many of the men from CCC, but for some reason he considers these acceptable flaws & wishes to continue challenging from within.”
No, that’snot what I meant. I have spoken to the senior leaders at times about things that I had issue with. I have made a time to visit them in their offices and they have heard me out. It has not been my experience that the leaders at CCC are unapproachable or closed to a critique from a congregation member. If your point is valid and delivered in an appropriate manner and there really is a problem then it will be addressed. I have seen that from my own situations. Wheels may move slowly but when they do move they keep going until the course is done. That’s been my experience anyway.
Please understand that I fully support Pastors Phil and Chris Pringle. the senior leadership and the cause of CCC Oxford Falls. Some of what is expressed here about my church may be valid however as I have mentioned many times, the case, the hard facts are weak. It’s all he said/she said. While I do not discount some of the issues I also know that you need more than huffing and puffing to be taken seriously. For all the negative aspects that the signposts community focuses on there are a lot of other postiive aspects that you all conveniently overlook. I have said it before and I will say it again….CCC = not perfect. But you will nnnnneeeeevvvvveeeeer find a perfect church. But. I love my church. I have benefited from the pastoral care and support there many times. I give regularly because I believe in it’s work.
Was I aware of Benny Hinn/CCC ties? Yes, I posted that waaaay back when I first found this place. The views of a 60 minute journo???? A journo can’t be trusted at the best of times but one with an agenda??? Sorry Lance, but I have seen too many “stories” cooked in the edit suite. I have done it myself for clients wishing to show their specific angle at the exclusion of others. I am part of the media industry and I don’t trust it. Pictures lie. So do journalists who want to get ahead.
fishy….curious to know what CCC in Perth you refer to. I was a member of CCC Hepburn Heights from 1987 to 2000.
January 16th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
“How many “real” friends would you say PP has, SB? I mean, that aren’t afraid of falling out of his favour? And his son’s, how many of their mates are comfortable to disagree significantly in any way with the heirs to the throne?”
I don’t know about Phil as I don’t “hang” with him…. but I certainly know that Joe and Dan have plenty of mates. I count myself as one. I have had full arguments with Joe over things at times and we’re still good mates. Joe and Dan are hardly “heirs to the throne” in so far as they are destined for the top spot one day. They both have their own careers and are doing well so I can’t really see them leaving it to run CCCOF. Joe is on staff at the moment as he is a good songwriter so he’s in charge of some album type things. But they’re not really who/what you have issue with are they? They just happen to have the same last name.
Re: financials, fish, I posted that again ages ago. Financials are available to members at the AGM. Don’t believe me, call and ask.
January 16th, 2007 at 4:12 pm
SilentBob,
“A journo can’t be trusted at the best of times but one with an agenda???”
That’s a response I have heard all to often when there is negative critique of the Church, but when there is positive stories its reported as ‘all Truth’, especially on Phil bakers Blog (he even has a category for ‘media’). So can we not trust the positive stories either…?
If 60 Minutes was a lone piece of criticism on Benny Hinn, I would take it with a grain-of-salt - but there is too much information (not only from journo’s) but many sources to ignore. I believe we ignore these warnings and the warnings presented by St Paul at our own Peril.
If these guys don’t represent the attributes of the False teachers that are greedy for money as described by St Paul throughout the New testament, I ask who does?
It is good to hear that “Financials are available to members at the AGM”. Great to Hear. Not the case at riverview. they dod not even have an open AGM. Do these financials include the “Charity” or entity that Phil Pringle has his speaking circuit monies paid into…?
The couple I mentioned are not from CCC Hepburn Heights, but another congregation.
I do know some really, really great people from CCC Hepburn Heights though.
January 16th, 2007 at 4:29 pm
SilentBob,
Re: “A journo can’t be trusted at the best of times but one with an agenda???”
Using your logic, does this mean that we will not be able to ‘Trust’ Phil Baker’s new Blog contributor…?
http://jamesmacpherson.blogspot.com/
It seems the “You can’t trust a journalist” argument is a convenient but illogical defense when ‘Contemporary Christians’ don not want to face facts!
January 16th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
“So can we not trust the positive stories either…?”
By my reasoning every story can be spun, both for the positive and the negative. So my answer then to “Using your logic, does this mean that we will not be able to ‘Trust’ Phil Baker’s new Blog contributor…?” would be no. It’s clearly a biased report, commissioned by the owner of the blog.
The only charity registered by CCC is The Easter Foundation which so far has replaced the hips of young children who have crippling arthritis, purchased a dozen or so Cochlear ear implants for some deaf children, sponsored a young mother in the church with two severely retarded/autistic children to go to the USA and learn from a clinic that is achieving amazing results with these types of kids and a few more that I can’t recall right now. It is a government recognised body, and has tax deductability status. But I’m repeating myself. I’ve said all this before in other posts.
And if Phil Pringle et al ears money outside of the church as a speaker, what business is it of yours? If that’s their job then they should earn a wage from it. He certainly doesn’t take one from the church.
January 16th, 2007 at 4:48 pm
“I do know some really, really great people from CCC Hepburn Heights though.”
Do you have issues with CCCHH? They are part of ‘the movement’ so surely you must have similar feelings towards them?
January 16th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
I don’t have problems with people from CCCHH, same as I don’t have problems with people from RV or Hillsong.
I do not believe it is wise for them to join the CCC ‘denomination’. I saw Phil and Chris Pringle speak there some years ago. They cancelled the sermon and went straight into the Toronto blessing / “slain in the spirit” / spooky every one all fall down now show. It was really weird and uncomfortable and did not feel like the Holy Spirit.
January 16th, 2007 at 5:02 pm
“and did not feel like the Holy Spirit…” to you.
Others?
This is where your argument begins to weaken. Whilst you may have valid points you cannot possibly presume to speak for every person in attendance at any given event. What feels weird and uncomfortable to you mat be something very real to someone else.
That’s not a swipe at you LF, that’s just illustrating what I’m trying to say. Some things are simply not black and white.
January 16th, 2007 at 5:14 pm
Lionfish - what does the Holy Spirit feel like? That is an intersting question
January 16th, 2007 at 5:22 pm
SilentBob,
Re: “And if Phil Pringle et al ears money outside of the church as a speaker, what business is it of yours?”.
I have no problem whatsoever if any of the God’s Millionairres (BRW June 2005) set make money to support themselves in honest occupations (ie. “Tent Making”) *OUTSIDE* the Church.
I find the “unjustifiable amounts of money” that exchange hands on the “lucrative pentecostal speaking circuit” *WITHIN* the Church under reciprical arrangements into the Pastors own FBT/GST/INCOME Tax Exempt Family Trusts masquesrading as Charities as being abhorrent.
Especially when this is coupled with the fact that they use dodgy theology of Tithing and dodgy fundraising practices to take money from families that need money to survive and enrich themselves hansomely - above and beyond a paid salary that significantly exceeds that of Pastors from other denominations and at the same time the wives (some times deservingly / sometimes not) draw a Senior Ministers wage.
If I was a Member of a Hillsong / CCC or Riverview et al it is my Business to be given complete and transparent information on how the Pastor is benefiting and profiting from Church activities.
I am as wary of anyone who makes a profit (especially when it is kept as secretive as it is) because how can you trust the sincerity of these Leaders and that they do not see you as simply a ‘Spiritual Consumer” something to be used to build their wealth, their empires and their ego’s.
2 Peter 2:3 “And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you…”
2 Corinthians 2:17 “Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God”.
January 16th, 2007 at 5:23 pm
Kevin - “Lionfish - what does the Holy Spirit feel like? That is an intersting question”.
He will bring comfort, revelation or conviction.
I felt none of this when the Pringles spoke. It felt all wrong.
January 16th, 2007 at 5:44 pm
“It felt all wrong….” to you.
January 16th, 2007 at 5:49 pm
SilentBob
“This is where your argument begins to weaken. Whilst you may have valid points you cannot possibly presume to speak for every person in attendance at any given event. What feels weird and uncomfortable to you mat be something very real to someone else”.
No this is where my argument gets stronger!
Absoutely Correct. I was relating my peronal experience to you - but I have also been producing FACTS.
And that’s why we should not debate on the issues of subjective experiences unless they are coupled or backed up with fact.
That’s why when I was a ‘Partner’ of Riverview and the ‘God’s Millionairres’ article was published I put my own committment, loyalty, wishes (emotional attachment) on ice and wnet looking for the facts!
Every fact that I have come across - inductively supports a conclusion that these are not ‘normal’ orthodox churches with an acceptable level of flaws - but rather a network of family owned Business Franchises that make a money as ‘(Christian) event marketing Businesses’.
If you do not think this could possibly be True then check out Marjoe Gortner as he exposes the way his family used to ‘work the circuit’:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zHqKI4X8bA
or try Peter Popoff (who is back in business and erans $USD 500K pa from is loyal following:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV90zKd_SaU
SilentBob: One Question. I would like you to watch the video’s and Truthfully answer:
(Of course Marjoe Gortner would have been helped (used) great people such as musicians, sound-check people, childrens ministry, even staffers - who would have believed he was authentic. the same goes for Peter Popoff (Notice how it is Peter Popoff’s wife who is ‘in on the con’ and not a believing staffer!).)
SilentBob - Please don’t dodge this question.
January 16th, 2007 at 6:24 pm
“And that’s why we should not debate on the issues of subjective experiences unless they are coupled or backed up with fact.”
That’s a complete contradiction. The very nature of a subjective experience is that it is unique to the person experiencing it. By your reasoning a subjective experience must be accompanied by ‘facts’ or else it is void. This is completely erroneous as you cannot possibly determine one person’s truth from another’s without being that person. Who is the judge of the authenticity of the ‘facts’? It can’t be judged.
“Is the experience for the people in the Marjoe Gortner and Peter Popoff’s video as real as it is for those who attend a Phil and Chris Pringle ‘Toronto Blessing’ styled show?”
That is impossible for me to answer because I am not those people. No one here can answer that. If you think you can then you’re in dire need of an ego reduction. You are not God Lionfish. You are not omniscient.
The Marjoe video is atrocious. He deliberately set out to deceive people. Phil Pringle does not do that. It’s apples and oranges.
If you believe you have proof Phil Pringle is willfully and deliberately involved in defrauding the members of CCC worldwide then I urge you to put up or shut up. If you can’t prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt then you have been cut off at the knees and exposed as a whinging, back-biting liar. No court on earth would uphold such a flawed argument as the one you present. You wouldn’t even make it to a preliminary hearing.
January 16th, 2007 at 7:29 pm
SilentBob,
I was there at CCC the time of the Toronto Blessing & RHB’s visit. I don’t know whether you were. I don’t know at what point something crosses over from one persons direct experience to meet your mandate of proof but this is what i saw & this is what i know : -
RHB was the most pigheaded, arrogant, aggressive person ever to set foot in an Aussie church. This included at one service berating & humiliating one volunteer deacon because the poor fellow couldn’t keep up with the people RHB was slaying in the spirit & accidentally failed to catch one. The individual, whom i knew well was mortified.
All of RHB’s actions during that “revival” visit, all of his arrogance was excused & smmothed over by the management of CCC because he “was a man of God & not to be criticised”.
I personally witnessed Pringle & other pastors & other congregants trying to force themselves to have a laughing fit when it didn’t come naturally, grinning & grimacing like they needed to pass a motion.
I personally saw people get extremely dystressed or at least uncomfortable because they could not “catch the wave” along with everybody else & felt left behind.
And i know that the whole TB thing was discredited & CCC has tried now to pretend that the whole thing never happened because RHB promised mass revival was imminent & that was over ten years ago & it never happened.
I dare you to ask someone in leadership at CCC why RHB has never been invited back to preach & why revival never came & why no-one talks about it now?
Does all of this sound at all to you like a move of the Holy Spirit? Is not pretending that a move of the Holy Spirit is happening & stating you recieved a word of knowledge that a revival was imminent blaspheming against the Holy Spirit?
Perhaps you would like to tell us again how you have complete confidence in who the Pringles invite to minister amongst you, false healers, false mobsters, Holy Spirit blasphemers, false Doctors & the rest.
January 16th, 2007 at 7:56 pm
“Does all of this sound at all to you like a move of the Holy Spirit?
Is not pretending that a move of the Holy Spirit is happening & stating you recieved a word of knowledge that a revival was imminent blaspheming against the Holy Spirit?”
No more blaspheming against the Holy Spirit than saying what you have just said, crediting a possible working of the spirit to the workings of a ‘false prophet’.
Who are you, and who am I, to say what is the work of the Holy Spirit and what isn’t?
Reve says:”Perhaps you would like to tell us again how you have complete confidence in who the Pringles invite to minister amongst you, false healers, false mobsters, Holy Spirit blasphemers, false Doctors & the rest.”
The word of God says: 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22
“19Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; 20do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22Avoid every kind of evil.”
“I don’t know at what point something crosses over from one persons direct experience to meet your mandate of proof but this is what i saw & this is what i know :”
It’s not me that’s asking for the mandate of proof, it’s Lionfish. Your quote above supports my case perfectly…. “but this is what i saw & this is what i know…”
Which would be different to what I saw and what I know. See what I mean?
I can’t comment on Mr Howard Browne because I do not know. You’re asking some questions that only Phil Pringle himself can answer. If you really want those answers then take a walk outside of the four walls of signposts and ask him yourself…. Or are you afraid to leave the cosy little veil of anonymity that the web affords you? Is there too much security in only being known as ‘Reve’? Bitching about it here in the comfort of your study or office and going to the man personally and affording him the courtesy of asking him to his face instead of crying about it here are two completely different things. If you all were really concerned about the spiritual welfare of the greater CCC Congregation then you would be a whole lot more pro-active than just sitting around here pissing up the (sign)post.
January 16th, 2007 at 9:39 pm
SB says : “If you really want those answers then take a walk outside of the four walls of signposts and ask him yourself…. Or are you afraid to leave the cosy little veil of anonymity that the web affords you? Is there too much security in only being known as ‘Reve’? Bitching about it here in the comfort of your study or office and going to the man personally and affording him the courtesy of asking him to his face instead of crying about it here are two completely different things”
That’s a fair call & a comon & valid argument used against blogs such as these. The problem with that argument is that to uphold it, you have to negate the use of blogs such as these altogether, & obviously you have found use in it whilst using an assumed name so I’m sure you’re not suggesting that.
The reason that i won’t do what you’ve asked is that i do not share your faith that i would recieve honest answers if i were to confront the man himself. I think he is probably a very polished manipulator, way out of my league & i’ll be honest with you, i think that:
1. He would be well versed by now in how to “handle” transgressives like me. He probably comfortably eats us for b’fast. I doubt i’d even blip on his radar.
2. If you don’t get direct audience with PP as an actual member, what chance would i have as an outsider who would have to stipulate what i wanted to discuss before going? I would be foobed off to a subordinate “handler”…..i mean, pastor like French or Saundercock or Kelsey or Betlem just the same as you do & you know it. Actually that’s probably wishful, it would most likely be a third-tier pastor. Why should they / would they care what ONE non-member thinks when they’ve got what they think is a succesful & workable model?
Now, you’re next qustion is “well, if you don’t have enough guts to give it a try, then you shouldn’t be bad-mouthing them here” but that unfortunately brings us round again to my first paragraph, which is that this blog serves some need of yours just as much as does mine & i don’t know you’re real name anymore than you know mine.
And why don’t i know yours? because you don’t want anyone getting it back to CCC brass that you are participating in a blog like this because you know there would be repercussions for you there.
So if you imply that i am an anon coward, you would have to say you are one too.
Just on that, i think that was a harsh implication to raise, i may have asked you direct questions but i don’t think i personally disrespected you.
& here’s another direct question, why are YOU on this blog? What’s your motivation & what are you trying to sort out by being here? You obviously have nothing but contempt for several of us.
Uust on that