a phone call
Had an abusive phone call today.
An Hillsongs member rang me after reading some of the signposts discussion about Hillsongs.
With a tone that was incredibly aggressive I was told the following:
1. I am providing a space/forum for people to say lies about Hillsongs. People who have held hurts for 20 years and just need to get over it.
2. I must read a different Bible to his because the provision of signposts is unbiblical.
3. I should re-visit my oath as a minister as his Father was an executive minister and so he knows I am not doing what I should as a minister.
4. Hillsongs is attacked and called a cult but no where can see where my Church is attacked or questioned. He felt that I was saying that people should leave Hillsongs and go to my Church.
5. The forum of signposts does not convey the gospel of life but is only about death.
Why am I posting this?
Well frankly I was shocked by the aggression and bullying of this guy who was apparantly was part of the planting team of hillsongs. It is not the first time that Dan or I have received emails regarding the comments that are left on signposts. And to this stage we have not commented about the emails that we have received. But I would like to take this opportunity to say the following:
1/ I can understand how some of the things that are said on signposts would be upsetting to those who are close and/or supportive of the Hillsongs Church.
2/ This blog was not started with the intention of having a community of people who comment so regularly and vigourously about Hillsongs.
3/ I personally have a number of concerns about Hillsongs Church and I am sure (as the guy is going to do!) if Hillsongs members were to review some of my posts about what we do at Northern and my own personal theological discussions, they too will have concerns about me.
4/ I am not responsible (nor is Dan) for the comments on this blog. For us to take responsibility in my opinion, diminishes the very real people who make the comments. Some of these comments I agree with and others I disagree with.
5/ I would like to encourage those who disagree with what is being said about Hillsongs (or anything else for that matter) on signposts to comment and engage in the discussion.
My final comment is this:
The energy levels of Dan and I for signposts goes through cycles. Recently, we have been on annual leave and we have posted very little. But ringing or emailing me or Dan with the aim of pressuring us to stop signposts or to limit discussion only makes me more determined to provide a voice for the voiceless.
I disagree strongly with the assertion that providing a voice for those who are hurt, bitter, excluded, marginlised by anyone is counter to the biblical narrative. In fact I think this is exactly what Jesus is calling us to do.
<end of rant>
January 16th, 2007 at 9:51 pm
Oh and ummm…..risking blaspheming the Holy Spirit by saying that RHB’s behaviour was abhorrent & the Toronto Blessing fraudulent? I’ll take that risk. I think most educated Christians are confident the jury was out on that one a long time ago, pentecostals included.
Judge its fruits, name one person, just one that you know was “saved” through the Holy Laughter Revival & remained a christian once the hype died.
Exactly.
We were careful what we said about it at the time, but in retrospect it’s pretty clear.
January 16th, 2007 at 9:51 pm
Hey nob job - I was aloso there in 1991 when RHB set about pissing on everyone at CCC it was NOT a work of te Holy Spirit ad I feel quite confident in being able to say that - the Spirit does not emabarass pople, nor need to be worked up, it does not make peopoe do outlandish or belittling things - such as making tem squawk like barnyard animals - that my friend is one of two things - a staged hypnosis show (and I;ve been to a ferw of them as well - or it was demonic - I prefer to think te former. RHB is not a man of God and is a liar and a false prophet.
As for sitting int he coimfort of our dens and offices I for one have spoken to the pastor (Mark Sundicott) whom I was told was responsible for TB Joshua’s visit http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/02/25/morning-news/comment-page-1/#comment-129893 about the TB Joshua fiasco I don’t claim a result, however his visit to CCCOF was suddenly cancelled.
Most of us here don’t just sit and whinge and bitch - we do have the courage of our beliefs and we confront face to face or on te phone whenever and wherever we can.
You berate reve for hiding behind an online persona and yet you however are the one who when his true identity was revealed asked for it to be taken down from this forum (despite your identity being freely available to any MySpace trawler). You are a white washed sepulcre a blind leader of the blind, a coward yourself not willing to get involved in the pain and truth of peoples stories on this site you prefer to say they are lies or half truths - you make me sick.
January 16th, 2007 at 9:55 pm
I have a question for Silentbob.
If someone in the financial services industry made you an offer, that guaranteed, and I underline ‘guaranteed’, a 100%+ return on your investment, and the return turned out to be less than 100%, or, no return at all, would you consider that to be fraudulent conduct or misleading or deceptive practices, and would you have a case before law to pursue the person/s making the fraudulent offer?
January 16th, 2007 at 9:58 pm
“You berate reve for hiding behind an online persona and yet you however are the one who when his true identity was revealed asked for it to be taken down from this forum.”
Great point. (Although at CCC, you are allowed to hold 2 contradictory points of view on an aspect of life..simultaneously)
January 16th, 2007 at 10:08 pm
“& here’s another direct question, why are YOU on this blog? What’s your motivation & what are you trying to sort out by being here? You obviously have nothing but contempt for several of us.”
I said earlier that I am here to correct the more grievous errors posted here about my church. Find it. Read it.
If I’m not welcome here I’m happy to leave. I’ll just rapid fire a few posts, the site will thnk I’m a spammer and have all my posts automatically deleted.
“because you don’t want anyone getting it back to CCC brass that you are participating in a blog like this”…
I have asked two CCC leaders for information in direct response to questions posed here. Why would there be repercussions? I am telling the truth. I have nothing to be afraid of. They knew I would post their replies here. I told them.
FYI, most people here saw my myspace page as posted by Wiggy. I asked for it to be removed not for my own privacy but for that of my friends and family on the list. Just becasue I choose to deal with the sewerage here does not mean they want to.
“Just on that, i think that was a harsh implication to raise, i may have asked you direct questions but i don’t think i personally disrespected you.”
That was not intended as a mark of disrespect, though respect must be earned. It was simply a way of pointing you to someone who could answer the questions I have repeatedly indicated I am not capable of answering. It was meant to be general, not Reve specific. Having said that, the overall tone of signposts is “harsh”. I have put up with far worse. Some of the posts towards me were even removed by site admin. The point was, if you’re going to say things that by all accounts could be considered libellous (generalising here, not just you Reve), slanderous and outright lies then have the decency to do it to someone’s face. If that won’t work and you believe as Lionfish does that there are criminal activities going on the call the police or whoever deals with that stuff. But you know why there is nothing like that happening? Because it’s all above board. Think about it. No one here can produce a skerrick of “evidence” to support ANY of their claims. Lionfish especially. And btw… I never called you a coward, you may feel that it came across that way but I never said it.
To assume that I have contempt for several of you would be an accurate assumption. As posted earlier (Find it. Read it.) when all you can post are pathetic school yard style ditties about a pastor’s bodily functions then you most certainly deserve to be treated with some contempt.
As for your reasons why PP would not want to talk to you…. good giref, you sound like a love sick school boy. “What if she won’t talk to me”??? Oh dear. Are we not adults here?
This argument keeps going round and round and it’s just getting boring. I’m answering the same questions all the time. It’s such a waste of time.
Is that ebough “Uust”-ing for you?
January 16th, 2007 at 10:15 pm
My name is Kristian. I go to CCC Ocford Falls and I care a great deal about my church.
“Name one person, just one that you know was “saved” through the Holy Laughter Revival & remained a christian once the hype died.”
Me.
“Hey nob job” ooh cutting edge sarcasm Greg. Is that all you’ve got?
You all have illustrated my points so beautifully. I could leave here with a lovely sense of satisfaction knowing that when I post ‘X’ you will all reply ‘Y’. It’s too easy.
January 16th, 2007 at 10:34 pm
An act in a church can be unethical without being illegal, SB, sometimes its not the police that are required so much as a conscience.
And goodness, do you really think we would stalk your friends & family just because they were on your myspace? What kind of animals do you think we are? we’re not mafiosa for gosh sake’s!
And i’m not a coward now, but i am a wuss schoolboy in love with PP. Boy, you remove one insult then just slam me with another!
As for stpping you posting here, we don’t do that kind of thing believe it or not, i just wanted to understand what you were getting out of this.
I want to say that you must be feeling exhausted having to defend CCC to all comers here by yourself. That it must be unpleasant & upsetting to engage in the roughness of blogging here & that you had my sympathies but i’m reluctant to show any softness because you would most likely insult me for that as well.
But here goes anyway : -
I hope you’re ok & that your resentment towards what you’ve come up against here dosen’t stress you so much that you can’t get a good nights sleep & awake feeling refreshed & light tomorrow morning. And i hope you don’t feel rejected as a person when you’re arguments are rejected. We like people who question things even when we don’t agree.
January 16th, 2007 at 10:42 pm
I would like to see your myspace & you have my word no-one (including you) would be at risk as a result. I just want to understand more about your life, i’m intrigued.
But if that feels unsafe i understand. I unfortunately do not have one yet.
January 16th, 2007 at 10:44 pm
I’m acknowledging that you have said you were saved as a direct result of the TB at CCC. I do take your word for it.
January 16th, 2007 at 10:49 pm
Wouldn’t mind an answer Silentbob on the legal principle of whether guaranteeing a 100%+ return on a financial investment, and then 100% failing to be returned to the investor constitutes fraud.
Also whether you believe funds donated to a third party being kept and then spent by the person/s offering the 100%+ return…constitutes fraud.
January 16th, 2007 at 11:01 pm
SilentBob asserts:
The harshness of this Blog does not compare with treatment received by people who have questioned the direction of the Contemporary Church or challenged taboo doctrines such as tithing. It does not compare with the hurt that one goes through when they realise that that Leaders place “organisation” and their livelihoods above all else – including theological integrity and Truth.
January 16th, 2007 at 11:04 pm
SilentBob (Kristen) asserts:
I am sure Hillsong/CCC/Riverview et al, like Scientology or any other cashed up cult would comply with their *minimum* statuatory obligations. They know exactly what they can get away with - and their successful formula would have been honed and refined over many years. There is too much at stake not too … particularly losing priveldges like taxation expemtions on operating companies and music sales”.
I have read much on swindles and stings and the mind of the swindler is such that he has little (if any) conscience of concern for his target … he will believe that it’s just a Business transaction, or a game.
In fact the swindler has a different perspective – and does not really know right from wrong! (I believe St Paul warned that there will be those after money that are deceived and will decieve.
I tell you this, because swindlers go to great lengths do deceive – as do false teachers.
Mark 13:22 “For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect ”.
“Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion” Ron L Hubbard (Scientology Founder) Reader’s Digest, May 1980. Source: http://www.skeptictank…
And what could be better than setting up a Business operation that people ‘do not know that they are being deceived’ – but the operators deceitfully obtain (using dodgy theology and emotional manipulation) 10% of pre-tax income as well as resources over a lifetime into a tax-free entity and syphon the proceeds into other tax-free entity via a lucrative networked speaking circuit!.
All perfectly legal –but all so very wrong!
It’s a case of (spiritual) buyer beware!
“Avoid as you would the plague – the clergy man who is also the man of Business”. - St Jerome
January 16th, 2007 at 11:11 pm
SilentBob (Kristen) Asserts:
The point of the question and the video’s is that crowds of well meaning, trusting, naieve Christians can be decieved and maniupluated into behaving weirdly and parting with $cash by cunning, shameless, pentecostal charlatans who appear authentic to the untrained eye.
January 16th, 2007 at 11:13 pm
SilentBob (Krsiten) asserts:
Forget about the need to go to the trouble of going to court! The theology of Prosperity Tithing as espoused by Pringle, Pat Mesiti, Alan Meyer, Houston, Paul de Jong has been debunked and would not even Hermeneutics 101 at an accredited mainstream / orthodox seminary!.
SilentBob, all I have done for you - and I will do one last time is present the facts for you to draw your own conclusion:
False Teaching Comes from False Teachers
Tithing as taught by these Spiritual Leaders and often transcribed by Lance White to this site is a gross maniupulation of the Scriptures, 1) it is based on ‘inadequate hermeneutics’, 2) it extorts the poor and needy who contrary to Scripture are taught and “compelled” against what is taught in the New testament that they must bring their “whole tithe” in God’s House (ie. their “local Church” in exchange for Blessings (or to avoid curses).
This is a contradiction to the Gospel:
-Jesus became the curse for us: “And that’s why we should not debate on the issues of subjective experiences unless they are coupled or backed up with fact.” Gal 3:13.
-Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver 2 Cor 9:7.
Here are some links on why Tithing is False Teching:
http://www.christian-witness.org/archives/cetf2006/tithing37.html
Here are some of the False Teachings of these teachers “Put under the Microscope”:
http://members.optusnet.com.au/tithingstudy/
January 16th, 2007 at 11:46 pm
I met and talked to RHB last night in louisville Ky, and his wife Adonica. This is the first I have seen of him since 1993. I have to say, he was quite ordinary and down to earth type of person to talk to.
CNN did an intersting piece on his church in Tampa FL - I picked up on youtube… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r5Xn7SUGKM
January 17th, 2007 at 7:19 am
I need to apologise to you Reve. This isn’t prompted by your niceness a few posts ago (though it is appreciated), I knew I needed to do it about 3am this morning.
I take full responsibility for my words and posts last night and unconditionally apologise to you. I don’t like a lot of what being here brings out in me, argumentative, sarcastic etc. You’re right, it is tiring… and depressing. I don’t agree with 95% of what is posted here and it’s pretty clear nothing will change… so I think I’m done here.
January 17th, 2007 at 8:40 am
SilentBob,
Sorry to see you go. We have put the effort in to show you the facts, and also our compelling argument.
As I said before, I was like you, emotionally attached to the Church, defensive and without a solid argument, until I examined the facts closely.
I urge you to do the same when you feel a little less emotional.
I know how you feel. And anger and denial is the first part of a long and hard grieving process. Follow through look at the fact - It’s only the Truth that will set you free!
At some point in time please read this paper on understanding / leaving abusive Churches:
http://www.rjd268.com/spiritual_abuse.htm
If you ever want to explore the issue ‘offline’ please do not hesitate to contact me.
Take care, SilentBob.
Rich ard Mac kenzie
clan.mackenzie@bigpond.com
January 17th, 2007 at 8:53 am
Thanks SilentBob,
Gods Blessings for you.
January 17th, 2007 at 9:28 am
SilentBob
Your post at #106 shows us you’re are a man of integrity with a good heart.
Thanks for your input here.
God Bless
January 17th, 2007 at 9:48 am
I was actually expecting some kind of at least half-arsed answer from silentbob on my question about whether he regards failing to deliver on a promise of a 100%+ investment return as being fraudulent under the law.
And he ran away before the ’skerrick’ of evidence he demanded could be presented.
But it should be noted that this is one of example of Phil Pringle’s teaching in this area.
http://hillsong.bigblog.com.au/post.do?id=65500
http://203.89.236.8/ramgen/ccc/02040610am.rm
“God has offered….like a prospectus …..the most amazing investment program you’ll ever hear about.
Not even the best companies in the world will offer you a 100 per cent return on your investment.
But this book does….and God is such a God that He cannot lie.
He says…if you get involved in My program …I’ll get involved in your program.
If you get involved in giving to me…I’ll get involved in giving to you.
We reap what we sow in this life..and as you bring your offering today …you’re releasing the laws of God that are unstoppable and unlimited into your world.”
I don’t think it would take very long to round up people defrauded by this financial offer.
January 17th, 2007 at 10:31 am
bob is silent -
Freddie Mercury was a visionary, singing about Signposts when Queen came out with “another one bites the dust. ”
Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
There are plenty of ways you can hurt a man
And bring him to the ground
You can beat him
You can cheat him
you can treat him bad and leave him
When he’s down
But I’m ready, yes I’m ready for you
I’m standing on my own two feet
Out of the doorway the bullets rip
repeating the sound of the beat
January 17th, 2007 at 10:41 am
Kevin,
Ultimately it is the Truth that brings men down.
Jesus said I am the way, the truth and the Life. It yields for no man. Ultimately, every knee shall bow to the Truth.
Many cannot handle the Truth, at this point in their lives - especially when their identify and core beliefs are challenged and will be shattered.
If you accept the Truth then it has implications and ‘whole of life’ consequences.
January 17th, 2007 at 11:22 am
yes, but the song is appropriate.
I mean it beats Black Sabbath’s “Iron Man”
January 17th, 2007 at 11:31 am
It does not, however, beat Britney Spears’ “Oops, I did it again”
January 17th, 2007 at 11:35 am
Lance transcribes Phil Pringle:
“God has offered….like a prospectus …..the most amazing investment program you’ll ever hear about.
Not even the best companies in the world will offer you a 100 per cent return on your investment.
But this book does….and God is such a God that He cannot lie.
He says…if you get involved in My program …I’ll get involved in your program.
If you get involved in giving to me…I’ll get involved in giving to you.
We reap what we sow in this life..and as you bring your offering today …you’re releasing the laws of God that are unstoppable and unlimited into your world.”
I have no idea how people can support this rubbish. I have no idea how a great Church such as “Shiloh” (once planted in Balga) could join this denomination and support this heretical rubbish.
I would have to say that one could argue that this is sadly very unwise of John Finkelde and his elders.
I lament where has Truth gone in the church nowadays?
Why are non-Trinitarians such as TD Jakes promoted by the likes of Pringle and Houston when the earliest Christians fought hard to dispense of Sabllienism and enshrine the core beliefs in the early creeds (such as the Nicene Creeds)?
Why a Charlatans like Benny Hinn promoted and hosted?
Where is the “Contemporary Church” heading - especially those that join the CCC and Hillsong networks…?
Does nor Truth, Orthodoxy and financial intrgrity matter to the Church today?
Sadly we lament…
January 17th, 2007 at 12:44 pm
Personally, I think when a person gives their “no” to a request it’s OK to question it… but it does need to be respected. Often a “no” really means “not yet”.
I think we need to respect the “no” of those who aren’t Christians on exploring matters of faith… and likewise the “no” of fellow believers who don’t yet want to look into something. Yes… ask questions, don’t get too antsy if they say no or are a little defensive. Respecting a no is part of respecting a person. If you respect a person, they are more likely to listen to you when they’re ready.
Yeah, I know, Lance will say the only way to get through to cult members is to go really hardline… yes, I’m a namby pamby wussy girl… and I might be wrong.
Really Lionfish, I’m on your side… no offence intended.
January 17th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
Lionfish … I hear your cry and lament with you.
Until a few years ago I was one of those you are lamenting. But, and here’s the rub (for me) I was responsible for leading our church while NOT being aware of so much, that I now know as false.
Oh sure … I was awake up to the likes of RHB et al and was increasingly on the ‘wrong side’ of Houston and his cronies (the Houstonisation of the AOG) and was dubious about ANYTHING coming out of the US (sorry Rev); but so much of what I now see, only BECAME apparent AFTER the Lord called me out!
Now my difficulty has been … how do I address … make right etc the wrongs I was responsible for during my period in the IC?
Firstly, those whom I might want to approach, see me as ‘backslidden’ or worse … rumours abound! Even if I were to try (again - yes I did try) they are so entrenched in the IC they simply … don’t want to / ’can’t … see the truth!
Secondly, like so many others in the IC these good people are deceived – as was I!!
But, for the reasons outlined above, I have no credibility with many of the people I once deemed friends (some, very good friends) and therefore have ‘no way in’ so to speak. I deserted them (their perspective) and some things just take time.
I have only fairly recently come to understand (and finally accept) that my ‘awakening’ was NOT brought about by logic … reasoning … debate … study or anything else that MAN can think of!
I was quite simply ‘arrested by God’ while on an overseas mission’s trip and from there on I was ‘absolutely ruined’ for anything other than the direct leading of the Holy Spirit in my life.
There and then began the most lonely, heart-breaking (almost soul-destroying) journey of my life! But that’s only half the story:
“I gave up all that inferior stuff so I could know Christ personally, experience His resurrection power, be a partner in his suffering, and go all the way with him to death itself. If there was any way to get in on the resurrection from the dead, I wanted to do it. I’m not saying that I have this all together, that I have it made. But I am well on my way, reaching out for Christ, who has so wondrously reached out for me”. (Philippians 3:10-12 Message)
As an aside … this the reason I can’t let go of ‘Pentecost’!! Without the grace of God and his resurrection power I would be … well I don’t want to go there!!
Jack-of-it
January 17th, 2007 at 1:59 pm
That’s a wonderful, moving story, Jack-of-it.
“What’s in a name? A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet”
You may need to use a different word than “Pentecost” in some circles just because of wrong or unhelpful connotations it has those circles… but it will always mean something wonderful for you.
January 18th, 2007 at 11:25 am
Jack-of-it: Thanks for thyat interesting comment.
There would be a large number of CCC/AOG Pastors that are honest and wellmeaning, yet ignorant and scripturally illiterate that are just ignorant/suckered in by these leaders and their movements.
Other would ‘know’ what is going on but would be working away quietly just looking after their own ‘lentil’ patches. Few people in the know, and still on the inside would have the courage to speak-out.
It’s great that you have come out from a place of ignorance and are now walking in the way that god intended you to be - “free”.
One question, while you were an AOG Pastor - what were your thoughts on the doctrine of Tithing?
January 18th, 2007 at 11:49 am
Silentbob:
I hope you are still out there and looking in as part of your Spiritual Education.
In the hope that you are, I would like to point you to this conversation about the Word-Of-Faith Business Network (specifically concerning Robb Thompson who recently spoke at CCC Oxford falls).
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/6730.html?1127159953
Of course Signposts are not the only people discussing the falseness of these churches.
It seems that Phil Pringle places orders for all the WOF Scooby Doo villains to preach at his Church, “Dodgy Dr” Joyce Meyer, TD (“non-Trinitarian”) Jukes, Benny “A dangerous fake” Hinn, and TB “Witch Doctor” Joshua, Robb “Happy Birthday”. Thomson.
Robb Thomson’s Family harvest Church has been labelled a ‘cult’ by the evangelical times:
http://www.evangelical-times.org/articles/apr04/apr04a14.htm
Please invest time to read and digest these articles, it may save you time and money.
Love this quote from the thread regarding the followers of these cults: