Weddings and interventionist theology
So, when Phil and I were married, we had Nick Cave’s “Into My Arms” as the bridal “march”, ie it played as I was walking into the chapel. It was only afterwards that Phil’s aunt pointed out to us that in a wedding full of almost exclusively church people, at least half of whom were members of a church of which Phil was a minister we had used a processional which began - quite clearly - with the words “I don’t believe in an interventionist God.”
Heh.
Anyway, Wayne and others have been talking about how much God intervenes in this world. I can see already this is going to degenerate into more heretical discussions which will get us fired from our respective positions (except for me, because lawyers aren’t meant to have souls). So, waddaya think?
November 17th, 2006 at 4:06 pm
Given Nick Cave’s second line, Dan:
I don’t believe in an interventionist God
But I know darling that you do,
who’s the unbeliever? Couldnt be Phil could it,after all he’s a minister!
November 17th, 2006 at 4:09 pm
I think lawyers do have souls (at least some of them do) so there!!
Seriously, I believe strongly in an interventionist God, I’ve seen far too much to ever doubt it. But I don’t think he does things to order. (our order I mean) I get very uncomfortable when people start drumming up particular approaches that they think will make Him do something … X number of people praying .. prayer at X time, or for Xhours or whatever, or by a particular formula of words. That’s magic and superstition not faith. God is calling us into relationship with Him along HIS path towards HIS goals .. He will and does answer prayer in amazing and wonderful ways, because He loves us, but He doesn’t obey our orders, and half the time we haven’t got a clue what his purposes are in a situation, we only know what we think they should be.
I am a great believer in prayer, but prayer is giving a situation over to God to see what he wants to do (and He CAN do anything) not giving Him instructions.
November 17th, 2006 at 9:56 pm
I too believe that God intervenes, otherwise why pray, if we do not believe that God answers? It is an interesting thing to consider in relation to immutability of God vs God who interacts and responds to his people (aka open theism argument). I reckon Nick Cave has a bet both ways with the lyrics to that song. Perhaps his perspective gives a glimpse into pop theology…
November 17th, 2006 at 9:59 pm
Yes, I agree that the hocus pocus superstition (Prayer of Jabez) type of thing is unlikely if ever to make God move outside His plan…maybe even make Him change His plan just to spite ‘em….I know I would…
But does God really intervene in things at all? I believe that God did intervene by giving us Jesus to murder but does He intervene in day to day life whether someone prays or not? Does God intervene to stop someone from dying because He wants them to achieve something in their life OR is it just the way it is? Is it just that yes, they amazingmy got out of that car crash, yes they amazingly walked away from that 10 storey fall! How much of all this is our imagination crediting God with all these amazing miracles when He is probably sitting back saying….”Geez, I had nothing to do with it.”
Christians (Especially the spooky ones) often give Satan too much credit for shit happening in their lives! Do we also give God too much credit for good stuff happening in our lives? Doesn’t it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous? Doesn’t good and bad stuff just happen?
If so how much does God actually intervene in our day to day lives? Does He even intervene at all?
You know people will say, “My experience tells me that God intervenes.” But my experience tells me that God quite often doesn’t intervene when he should. To believe in a non interventionist God actually helps me to keep my faith that God actually does exist.
Does any of that make sense?
November 17th, 2006 at 10:04 pm
Sorry, I just have to do this….Hill$ong…there it’s turned into a Hill$ong thread…haha
November 18th, 2006 at 7:37 am
I have been very surprised how and where God intervenes.
rev
November 18th, 2006 at 11:41 am
Neil, re: post 4 — It makes complete and utter sense to me.
Shit happens. Also, really wonderful things happen. I’m not always sure that God (or the devil for that matter) swings circumstance either way. I’d like to think so, it’s a nice comforting thought — but experience tells me not to bank of this as fact.
I have to believe in a non-interventionist God.. or I wouldn’t be able to believe in God at all, or worse; I’d have some pretty blasphemous opinions on such a God.
November 18th, 2006 at 9:50 pm
Rev I agree.But I have problems with praying for rain.Whats the difference between 23 national church leaders praying that God will move a low pressure system from Mumbai(nearly at the end of the wet season over there),carefully avoid dropping it o the banana pickers in Qld or the price will go up again,and drop it on Melb, and Fred Nle praying for rain to drown the Mardi Gras in Syd?
November 19th, 2006 at 3:06 am
Growing up in church I was always taught that God intervened. “Be good and God will protect you.” But I found out by observation that this really isn’t true. You can be good, and bad things can and do happen to you. People justify this by saying that I wasn’t really good, I just thought I was. If that was so, what good is the advice to be good? Just crap.
Bad things happen to *everyone*. We all suffer loss and pain. We all have stuff happen that we wish didn’t. I tend to agree with Anais in post 7 - if God *is* an interventionist God then he has a lot to answer for. So I conclude that God is non-interventionist.
But every now and then, someone prays for a terminal cancer patient, and the cancer disappears overnight and they live happily ever after. Very rare - but it does happen, and this stuffs up my understanding of the universe.
It is as if God *sometimes* intervenes, but only in seasons. Annoys the crap out of me. I want to understand.
November 19th, 2006 at 7:04 am
Yes it seems people look at God intervention as something that can be manipulated, which its not. God does intervene, and often times it is not how or where we expect. Often times it is not where we believe it is most needed. However, I have seen too many things in my life that prove God intervention to discount it.
But the idea that God will protect us, well that is not to be counted on. A quick read of Foxes book of martyrs should tell you that.
rev
November 19th, 2006 at 5:27 pm
If we caould get God to d0o things -if God interveded at our discretion, God would not be God. I am a very actin oriented person - If it is to be…it’s up to me - and yet there are situatoins where without God’s intervention things might wel get very ugly.
I read once during the 1994 bush fires a family had their house bypassed by te fire and te huose rifght next them burnt to the ground…there take on it> God was looking after us, we’re Christians
November 19th, 2006 at 8:10 pm
Hmmm So Rev…Why do you credit God with intervening just because things worked out good or worked out the way you wanted them too?
Isn’t it more logical to conclude that if God dosen’t intervene every time then he mustn’t intervene at all?
Greg, Fires jump over houses all the time…sometimes it is topography…sometimes it is because the firefighters turn up and can save this house but not the next and then they save another but not the next….
Nothing to do with God intervening and (I really respect you Greg so don’t take this the wrong way) that is the kind of flaky spooky crap I expect from Hill$ong…Oh we are blessed because we are Christians…our house didn’t burn down…
November 19th, 2006 at 9:41 pm
Well I hardly see things working out alright and legitimate miracles the same. I have seen some pretty freaky things due to prayer, I have seen miracles of knowledge as well. These are not attibutable to things just working out alright, but God actually moving in our world.
rev
November 19th, 2006 at 10:14 pm
Please exlpain the Rev?
November 20th, 2006 at 7:34 am
Neil,
These experiences were very beautiful and important to me. In the past they have been derided and made fun of on internet boards and I would rather not talk about them, however, if you email me I will tell you about them.
johnj at forge. org.au
rev
November 20th, 2006 at 8:30 am
i am with the rev on this however i think the church (at least almost all that i have been to - baptist - aog) has been infiltrated by a lot of ‘neo-paganist’ belief that that says.. ‘if i pray God will or is at least more likely to do this’…
God will and does intervene in his own time at his own descretion but our language often portrays another belief system… and a very self centred one at that… a notable exception has been the presbyterian church (the few that i have been to at least who seem very sound in this area)
another point on the same discussion is how confident we are at proclaiming answers to prayer as if we really had a hand in changing Gods mind…
i have actually heard people thanking God for answering their prayer for a parking spot at the shops and a youth pastor who (from the pulpit) was just praising God that when benny hinn prayed for healing at 5 in the morning as she was watching that she lost her headache!
post hoc ergo propter hoc is a logical fallacy along the lines of ‘the rooster crows then the sun comes up .. therefore the sun coming up is caused by the rooster’ and this belief is rampant through the church… ‘i prayed this .. and this happened… therefore it must have been God and my prayer’
November 20th, 2006 at 9:47 am
Interesting discussion….
I agree that we have a tendency to want to try to formularise God’s intervention in this world to suit our needs/wants/insecurities/etc…
At this point in my journey with God I believe that God rarely interferes but often intervenes.
It seems to me that God doesn’t stop the natural consequences of this broken world. He rarely seems to stop someone getting raped, or sickness, or injustice, or death. It is also rare for God to do something unnatural in order to “fix” a natural consequence of this world. That is why miracles are rare (defining a miracle as an unnatural (supernatural??) “interference” in the natural order of things). Miracles do happen. God can and does sometimes heal supernaturally or do things out of the ordinary, but it is rare.
I think it’s actually quite complex for God because when He does do something supernatural and therefore interfere with the natural order of things, people can take it so often the wrong way and try to formularise the supernatural act, or sensationalise it, or distort it, or degrade it, etc… One supernatural act can cause all sorts of difficulties for people. People start to ask, well why doesn’t God do that for me?, there are faith doubts, there is often abuse of the situation which follows, there can follow unrealistic expectations of God, and there can even be profiteers that follow in the wake of it all. Also, this is not to mention that God has His agenda that He is working and we don’t see the big picture. I think supernatural interference in the natural world is very complex and therefore rare.
However, I do believe God is trying to intervene in our natural world in natural ways all the time. This is especially where prayer helps us to see what God is trying to do and get on board with it. Let me illustrate with a very simple (and natural) story that happened to me this weekend….
I was going four-wheel driving on Saturday morning and my dad turned up in his 4wd and he parked at my house with one tyre on the curb. Because the tyre was parked on the curb, it looked a little flat. This caused us to pay attention to the tyre, check its pressure, and it was indeed a little flat. We had a closer look and saw a nail stuck in the tyre. We drove to the nearest tyre shop, and because it was first thing in the morning, they fixed it on the spot, and then we went four-wheel driving and had a fantastic day enjoying each other and God’s marvellous creation.
Now, the tracks that we were driving on would have caused the tyre to have become fully flat out in the bush and it would have been a nightmare trying to change a tyre on some of these tracks. So did God intervene here?
It seems like a trivial example, but I believe that God did intervene here. I almost “felt” it. I truly felt like God wanted us to enjoy this day. It was a simple and very natural intervention.
God didn’t stop the nail from going in to the tyre, but when it did, He tried to divert our attention to it so that it could be fixed.
How many times does God intervene in the smallest and most natural of ways to try to achieve His purposes that we are totally unaware of? Perhaps part of the role of prayer is to ask God to help us to have eyes to see what He is doing so that we can participate and get on board…..
I believe in an intervening God…..
November 20th, 2006 at 12:20 pm
My current view on the concept of Intervention is that God [most typically, and with few exceptions] only intervenes by interacting with his agents in a conscious/subconscious but not physical way. I’m undecided on the presence of an opposing force/will to God’s with any greater structure than merely being the ‘other’.
The presence of such an influential force is very comforting.
I do acknowledge that this doesn’t account for actual physical miracles but that is something I feel fine with being agnostic towards (I don’t believe either way on them, I respect both sides of the argument but can’t find my self agreeing with either)
November 20th, 2006 at 4:10 pm
Great thread, great discussion.
I too have had God intervene (interject?) at random moments, and then be totally silent and nonresponsive on other things which I’ve cried out to him for.
For myself, I believe that it’s this way because we don’t see the full picture yet.
Does everyone remember that corny ‘footprints’ poem? Curious to hear what everyone thinks of this thought?
November 21st, 2006 at 7:59 am
can i put in a tiny ad here? is that allowed? i don’t know whether any of you are familiar with Pete Rollins and his thoughts in this area (he wrote a fabulous book, published this year, called ‘How (not) to speak of God’, and is coordinator of the Ikon community in Belfast). Pete’s going to be in melbourne in january, mostly for a holiday but he’ll also be doing a couple of public things. if you’re in melbourne, and you’re interested in coming to the pub one night to have a drink with pete and talk about just this very thing, let me know… my email address is cheryl dot lawrie at vic.uca.org.au
November 21st, 2006 at 8:24 am
Cheryl I tried to post a comenct on your site - but it wouldn’t let me (I registered and got a password and everything)
I just wanted to say how right I think you got the idea of Christmas in prison and that I pray al goes well for you and your chaplain friend when you do Christmas worship for the women in prison.
November 21st, 2006 at 9:14 am
thanks greg! people keep telling me they have problems with comments… dammit… i’ll get my IT person onto it.
November 21st, 2006 at 4:20 pm
For those who believe that god is about to move a low pressure system from the wet season coming to an end in Mumbai,will only say amen to the announcement today that in Qld(remember this is the state with a govt backing praying for rain) the cyclone system has started(”check the security of roof tiles,trim branches and have emergency kits and stocks on hand”)and that some of the cyclones are looking “pretty good”.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Queenslanders-bracing-for-cyclone-season/2006/11/21/1163871394856.html/
Does Pete Rollins believe in God moving low pressure systems about the stratosphere when 23 bishops call for it?
November 21st, 2006 at 5:14 pm
no, pete rollins would believe that God is what happens after the cyclone
November 21st, 2006 at 5:18 pm
Cheryl,
Email me the details and I will link it up on the main site to give it better publicity.
November 21st, 2006 at 5:42 pm
I believe God intervenes when someone surrenders their heart to Jesus as Lord… that God’s Spirit actually indwells a person. That slowly the fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience etc.) grow within as that heart keeps surrendering to Jesus as Lord. That the Spirit of God can lead people into compassion, into acts of kindness, into honesty. That the Spirit of God can lead ordinary Christians into giving, into service, into the acts of caring and thoughtfulness that make the world go around. The Spirit of God can lead Phil and Dan to a church in the Northern suburbs of Melbourne, or Ash and Anj Barker to a slum in Bankok to live among the poor, or the Rev into mission in Melbourne, or Lance to uncover church hypocrisy.
Don’t most of us think God is intervening all the time through the hearts and hands and feet of those who seek to live with Jesus as Lord?
So, what’s the question really? Does God do physical miracles at our bidding? Nope. Is God at work in the world through those who seek to do His will? You betcha.
November 21st, 2006 at 9:13 pm
I’m with you Janet,God doesnt move low pressue systems around even for 23 church leaders,the Qld premier or the Gov general.Altho betcha a dollar that the 700 who gather for the annual prayer breakfast next Mon will implore God to work his wonders,and ignore the hydrologic cycle and deliver the requiste number of low pressure sysems!Janet you’d appreciate,”Divine Intervention-regional reconciliation thru faith”
http://hir.harvard.edu/articles/print.php?article=1190/
November 22nd, 2006 at 7:35 am
The link didn’t work for me Alan.
I think those who say God absolutely can’t do miracles in error… Christians affirm that God made the universe out of nothing, which is a pretty dramatic physical intervention by anyone’s standards.
Those who say God must do miracles because I’ve drummed up the requisite amount of faith and God’s under some kind of legal contract are in error too. (although the latter sound much sillier).
The point is Jesus as Lord… we are to do His bidding, He is not to do ours. I think faith is about believing God could intervene if He chose, and trusting if He does not. It’s a mystery. I know God is more interested in forming the character of Christ in us than in bailing us out for our comfort.
It has to be said that miracles are rare by definition. If you dig into it enough, it seems absolutely miraculous that a baby can form from a single cell in 9 months, and have functioning organs and a circulatory system and a nervous system and a complex immune system and perfect little fingernails in all the right places. But because this happens more often than not we regard it as “natural”.
God usually “intervenes” by quiet whispers of the Spirit into the hearts of those who live like Jesus is Lord. I’m not saying God will never do the obviously miraculous… I’m just saying that’s rare. When God feeds the poor it’s usually through people’s actions of mercy or justice, not because God conjures food up from the air. Not saying God can’t… (feeding of the 5000)… just that God usually doesn’t.
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:06 am
Janet you have a beautiful way of expressing yourself. Thank you.
I’ve been thinking about this a fair bit actually, and I think that if you believe that God does not intervene for good, then wouldn’t you also lose the belief in the power of God’s justice, or God’s vengeance? I know that when I try to take things into my own hands, eg defending myself against people (not physically) I run into trouble. But when I step back and let God speak for me, things work out a lot better.
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:15 am
Suppose that faith is nothing more than getting into position to aquire what god has already set aside for you. in other words, before the world was formed and god had pre-ordained you to do some good works, he made a pre deposit (somehow) as to what you would need to do it. Then sin came and blinded us to His provision and our prayers/faith became “God, help me see what you already have provided”. we would not have to conjure up faith to get something god did not already know we would need, hence the pressure to make something happen would not fall on us, but on God.
Our faith would be what we used to get ourselves in line with Him, not Him in line with us.