Defiant, but hanged
There has been a lot of comment over the last couple of days about the hanging of Saddam Hussein. Some of it has even penetrated the busyness of the season to resonate a little. I have been reflecting a little on a photo that was on the age website (which I now cannot find). It was a side on picture of Hussein, his head lowered with the noose around his neck. And for some reason I thought that I had seen a very similar image before recently. Or that the image was evoking reactions in me that had stirred in relation to something similar. For the life of me I couldn’t figure it out.
It came to me in the end. The image was evoking for me the photos of the Abu Graib torture. The last time I saw such a high profile image of someone with a noose around their neck, it was damning evidence of torture. I haven’t read much commentary so I don’t know how original this response was, and maybe it is entirely appropriate that a known torturer die with these sorts of images echoing in my head.
But I can’t really believe that. I don’t remember very much about the victims of the Abu Graib torture. Because it was irrelevant what crimes the victims may have been guilty of. I do remember a fair bit about the people in those photos who were putting nooses around necks. When talking about outrageous and obscene acts such as torture, the perpetrators commit a crime against humanity itself, not just against the individual victim. Such acts diminish the human race.
I am pretty comfortable calling Hussein evil. He was certainly a man worthy of criminal punishment. But in hanging him, and in condoning or accepting or allowing or refusing to condemn that action, we are smaller and less just and just less.
January 30th, 2007 at 7:54 am
Jesus said get behind me Satan, he called the Pharisees sons of their father the devil, and white washed tombs, and made a whip and chased the money changers out of the temple with it calling them thieves. I think there is a time and a place to confront religiousity with very stern words.
rev
January 30th, 2007 at 8:13 am
Ha! One of my 2007 prophesies just came true!
Although predicting someone would hang it on the Rev for failing to be gracious and sensitive doesn’t exactly make me a remarkable prophet!
January 30th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
Rev, per your desire, I have noted that all of your personal insults were Holy Spirit inspired.
Remember when you wrote this?
“Jesus tells us to love our enemies, to pray for those that abuse us, to turn the other cheek, and then follows that all up by saying if you do not put these teachings into practice you are a foolish man who is building upon an unstable foundation.”
How about this?
“Homer, you are a stiff necked and hateful man, that refuses to see his own wrongness … you are a stiff necked, pompous, pride filled, law lover. ”
Then this:
“… Jesus’ very explicit teachings on loving your enemies, forgiving those that sin against you, extending mercy, learning compassion, and being willing to suffer for love sake …”
and this:
“… Jesus was very very clear that mercy is the mark of a Christian … ”
Contrasted against:
“… You pharisaical assholes love to keep literal when we are talking about killing people, and what you do with your penis … You are quite the loser.”
And finally:
“I am trully saddened for your souls putrid state … that is why you are so ignorant of Jesus, because you do not have the Spirit of Christ, but the spirit of religion.”
How do you reconcile these words?
Teach me, Rev.
January 30th, 2007 at 3:17 pm
Ajesusman - your so clever - explain how those words are anything but true and explain how saying them has made rev any less merciful or loving? The bible suggests that telling the truth in love is a good thing to do, it doesn;t say we should all be smarmy flacid cookie cutter stepford Christians - it seems that there are many who come along here who can’t take the adult concept of argy bargy
January 30th, 2007 at 3:41 pm
True, Greg, but I must say that I’ve been reading this thread and cringing. The Rev’s not doing himself any favours.
January 30th, 2007 at 6:06 pm
Well, I will have to answer for all of those words, and I am quite happy to do so. In my opinion Homer is a pharisee and should be addressed as such, and yes I feel that I am being lead. Ofcourse I may be wrong, and if the Spirit convicts me I will apologize. Bec, I say what I feel I should and don’t really care what people think about it or me.
rev
January 31st, 2007 at 2:53 am
I don’t believe one has to be a Christian to recognize that savaging someone with words and personally condemning them (rather than their actions) is not compassionate, loving behavior.
Such speech certainly doesn’t provoke men to gentleness, mercy, and peace: which is supposedly the intent of anti-death penalty comments.
If one wants to justify hateful speech by suggesting, “They deserve it,” then I would only add that “we all deserve it,” but God, by His grace, has chosen to save rather than condemn us. “Jesus came not to condemn the world but to save it,” (John 3:17).
Rather, we are to restore our brethren “in a spirit of meekness,” lest we fall into the same trap: “Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ,” (Galatians 6:1-3). We are to avoid placing ourselves in a position of superiority above the transgressor.
With those who truly are lost, the bible commands that we “be patient, never striving”: “And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth,” (2 Timothy 2:24-25).
It would be good to consider the words of Christ: “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned,” (John 15:5-6).
It is by walking in the fruit of the Spirit that we testify of the authenticity of our faith.
What is this fruit?
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts” (Galatians 5:21-22).
“The affections and lusts” of the flesh are those desires and behaviors which require no restraint or maturity (read submission to the Holy Spirit) to demonstrate: anger, vengeance, condemnation– the typical knee-jerk reactins which are so common in the world–but are not to be the norm within the body of Christ (Romans 12:2).
I sincerely doubt that someone who cannot refrain from responding in anger and condemnation to those who simply share a different viewpoint are well-equipped to forgive those who actively persecute and kill them. The first would logically (and spiritually) seem to precede the second.
A child does not have to be taught to lie, not share, hit, or steal another’s toy: for he has not yet crucified the affections and lusts of the flesh.
The mature elder, on the other hand, teaches foremost by patient example and humble service. (Matthew 18:3-4; 23:11-12) Elders are not tyrants, but are known by their godly character (1 Timothy 3:1-7).
January 31st, 2007 at 7:26 am
well now who is judging someone without knowing anything about them. I assure you I am quite willing and able to forgive, and be gentle. I do so all the time, and work with some of the most difficult, and testing people you can imagine. My remarks towards Homer, are done with anger at the hardness of his heart. If Homer were standing in front of my face, I would say the same, but I would also stand in front of a bus to save him.
I have been on this forum for almost two years, in that time Homer has not once admitted he was wrong. He has not once acted in anyway that was not condescending and demeaning. He has never apologized, he has never been understanding, he has never even looked at anyone else’ opinion with anything less than a ridiculing disdain. He consistantly takes the path of judgement, wrath, and contempt. I have in the past stepped over the line and apologized. And at one time I left the forum for a few weeks because he was driving me crazy. But now, I actually feel I am not acting in malice, but in righteous indignation.
Now, please listen to the next bit, as I imagine you are pretty heated up at this point:
Thank you for your words, I understand the heart they are coming from, and I respect you for them. The things you are saying are things that are at the core of who we are to be as Christians and are often forgotten, and in honesty they are often forgotten by me. I am a very intense man, and as much as I would like not to, I enjoy a good arguement. I thank you for your rebuke, and your willingness to engage with me with a strong word of exhortation (especially as you would most likely consider me a hostile person who would turn on you like I have on Homer). You have guts, and integrity and I appreciate it.
You must remember that as you say Christ is the vine, and we are the branches, yet Christ at times gave scathing rebukes of certain self satisfied, religious people, who had forgotten that God did not desire dead ritual, but compassion, mercy and love. Jesus, who is the one I follow, actually told people they were sons of the devil, that they would be turned down at the gates of heaven. These are actually words spoken directly to people, assaulting their very character. The reason they are used is to cause the sort of wrankling that only a person of pride would have at their stature being called into question.
So, I am trying to say what I am lead to say. I have read the words I have spoken, and am satisfied that I still stand by them, and believe I was right to say them. I am sorry if you do not agree. If you would like to talk to me in private about this, I welcome an email from you pinnedagain2001 at yahoo dot com
rev
January 31st, 2007 at 8:22 am
Rev,
I think you *do* care what people think about you, and some of your posts have made me wince because…well, you come across as someone that I don’t think you are, based on our few meetings in real life. Based on those few short meetings, I think you’re a great bloke, and I just wish you didn’t post some fo the stuff you post here…
I could probably say the same of myself though.
January 31st, 2007 at 9:44 am
You’re right, rev: we shouldn’t go through life always being namby-pamby Christians who are more concerned about what others think ABOUT us than whether or not we continue steadfastly with Christ.
I’m really not mad, brother, and I really wasn’t judging you.
As I read your last post, you come off as a real, nice human being: someone who can identify with others’ weaknesses; maybe even identify with me, in spite of the fact that I am often wrong and in need of correction.
You are also correct in my estimation (based upon my understanding of the scriptures) that we are to rebuke the believer who has fallen into unrepentance–and perhaps those unbelievers who are misleading potential converts in such a way as to compromise their emerging faith–increasing the liklihood that they will become offended at God for the sins comitted by men.
If there is good done here (by any, in any way), it is to God’s glory.
Your response is a personal encouragement to me in my walk with God today, and I look forward to reading more of your comments in the future.
Thank you for your kindness and patience with me, brother.
P.S. You do raise an interesting doctrinal topic for discussion at some point in the future possibly, however; might it be called “The Nature and Substance of Biblical Rebukes?”
I have some thoughts on that–and some possible other sources which might be profitable to look at for us all–at some point in the future I may rejoin the topic with you personally. I need to meditate on it some more.
Peace, bro.!
January 31st, 2007 at 9:50 am
ajesusman…I like you’re thinking.
The Rev is a really nice bloke.
Rev - I just wish you’d keep the rebuking to…well, rebuking, rather than abuse. This is the kind of stuff that makes me wince:
“Homer, you are a stiff necked and hateful man, that refuses to see his own wrongness … you are a stiff necked, pompous, pride filled, law lover. ”
Then this:
“… You pharisaical assholes”
“You are quite the loser.”
“your souls putrid state”
“you are so ignorant of Jesus”
I dunno…I know that it doesn’t get Homer anywhere when he hurls similar abuse at people (which he does all the time). I think people are far more likely to listen to a gentle, calm rebuke than an abusive one.
But that’s just me. Maybe blokes relate differently.
January 31st, 2007 at 2:05 pm
BTW - Rev, I don’t intend either of my posts to be patronising, though I’ve re-read them and realise they might come across that way. Please don’t take them that way. Print is a limited medium for communicating…
January 31st, 2007 at 2:13 pm
Actually, bec, both of your posts come across as sincere …
January 31st, 2007 at 3:26 pm
You know I am with rev on this (too scared not to be actually…he really is quite the bully) there are times when a harsh smack about the head with the reality stick is what is called for, especially when a person has been continuously in denial about the state of their own attitiudes like Homer has been. This was especially brought home to me last night as I had my bed time reading.
I am currently reading The Ragamuffin Gospel by Brennan Manning and in chapter 7 or 8 he shares about a period in his life where he was in a residential program for chemical dependance (Brennan is a recovering alcoholic). ONe particualr guy was put in the middle of a group and asked to share about his drinking patterns. He said he had about 6 drinks per day - through a series of investigative questoins and phone calls (with the guys permsission) it came out that he actually had more than that (a lot more than that actually) the thing that brought him crashing out of his comfortable flight through the stratoshpere of denial was some very harsh words, extremely harsh words and yet as a result he was able to face his true self and work on himself.
The truth of peoples attitudes and words needs to be brought to them in sometimes a harsh manner - that’s the reality of change - is it our responsiblity to bring that truth to bear? Yes - why? Because we’re there and we ahve the opportunity. Is rev or anyone else here being unloving or unchristian? not in this case.
I ahve said things that were too far and have apologised as well - however I fully back rev on this one
January 31st, 2007 at 3:48 pm
Greg,
You point out that he was ASKED QUESTIONS.
Harsh words are one thing. I have no problem with telling the truth, and telling it how it is. But actual abuse? Actual name calling? I think it tends to close one’s ears rather than open them. I dare say that the “harsh words” this guy heard also came from people who’s opinions he sought, and respected, and could therefore hear.
Y’know what? I don’t reckon ANY of us are going to bring Homer crashing back to earth - especially if we use language such as that which has often been used against him (by me included, I think). All it does is give him another reason to write off our arguments.
I might also note that this guy’s reality check occurred via words spoken in person, face-to-face. There’s a huge difference between words on a blog and words spoken in person.
As someone who agrees with the Rev, and as someone who finds Homer profoundly un-Christlike a lot of the time, I have to say I discerned no love in the Rev’s words.
Perhaps there was love in his words, and I just missed it - but that just points out the strengths of face-to-face conversations and the weaknesses of blogs.
January 31st, 2007 at 4:06 pm
Homer’s reputation precedes him!
When dealing with the comittedly unrepentant, we do well to remember these words:
“Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee,” (Proverbs 9:8).
“A wise son heareth his father’s instruction: but a scorner heareth not rebuke,” (Proverbs 13:1).
Basically, we rebuke the brethren (in scriptural ways) and our an example to the world, letting our light so shine before men that they MAY one day glorify their Father in heaven.
I personally find it difficult to argue with these verses:
“But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil,” (Luke 6:27-35).
How could this be any more clear?
January 31st, 2007 at 4:19 pm
P.S. James 2:10 is an impossible standard to meet (keep ALL of the law; for if we offend in one part, we are guilty of it all).
All of our human efforts to satisfy the law are in vain (Romans 2:25), which is precisely why we need Christ.
As Jesus said, “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?” (John 7:19).
Apparently, God finds it hypocritical for sinners to condemn one other (let alone Jesus), as if one sinner is of a higher standard than another.
It is certainly scriptural to provide godly counsel to one another. However, when we condemn others (look down upon them) and curse them and lift ourselves up as better than they, we place ourselves as a judge above men–leaving our rightful place and attempting to assume the place of God–a dangerous and unhealthy position to be in.
When the disciples wanted to call down fire upon some men who weren’t treating Jesus the way they believed He deserved to be treated, Jesus said something quite interesting to them.
“And when his disciples James and John saw [this], they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them … ” (Luke 9:54-56).
If we go forth in Christ’s name, we should walk according to the pattern established in Him.
January 31st, 2007 at 4:20 pm
… and I’ll shut up now.
–peace
January 31st, 2007 at 11:04 pm
re #248
“I have been on this forum for almost two years, in that time Homer has not once admitted he was wrong. He has not once acted in anyway that was not condescending and demeaning. He has never apologized, he has never been understanding, he has never even looked at anyone else’ opinion with anything less than a ridiculing disdain.”
That’s funny, coz if you take away the name “Homer” and add the name “Lance” it’s a perfect fit!
February 1st, 2007 at 3:32 am
After reading the thread on ‘homosexuality,’ I posted the following:
“After today, I will no longer be frequenting this site: as the scope and intensity of both the perversion and anger which pervades every thread (practically) is beyond deplorable.
It simply does not and can not represent Christ.”
February 1st, 2007 at 9:27 am
ajesusman,
I hope you will continue to come here, but if you are really leaving, give me an email once and a while.
rev
February 2nd, 2007 at 12:38 pm
See Rev? it’s completely appropriate to kill someone for their crimes. It is not appropriate to speak nastily to them. Because we value life.
…
what?