Defiant, but hanged
There has been a lot of comment over the last couple of days about the hanging of Saddam Hussein. Some of it has even penetrated the busyness of the season to resonate a little. I have been reflecting a little on a photo that was on the age website (which I now cannot find). It was a side on picture of Hussein, his head lowered with the noose around his neck. And for some reason I thought that I had seen a very similar image before recently. Or that the image was evoking reactions in me that had stirred in relation to something similar. For the life of me I couldn’t figure it out.
It came to me in the end. The image was evoking for me the photos of the Abu Graib torture. The last time I saw such a high profile image of someone with a noose around their neck, it was damning evidence of torture. I haven’t read much commentary so I don’t know how original this response was, and maybe it is entirely appropriate that a known torturer die with these sorts of images echoing in my head.
But I can’t really believe that. I don’t remember very much about the victims of the Abu Graib torture. Because it was irrelevant what crimes the victims may have been guilty of. I do remember a fair bit about the people in those photos who were putting nooses around necks. When talking about outrageous and obscene acts such as torture, the perpetrators commit a crime against humanity itself, not just against the individual victim. Such acts diminish the human race.
I am pretty comfortable calling Hussein evil. He was certainly a man worthy of criminal punishment. But in hanging him, and in condoning or accepting or allowing or refusing to condemn that action, we are smaller and less just and just less.
January 2nd, 2007 at 8:50 am
People should re-read Genesis 9:6 if you do not believe in capital punishment.
I have reservations about the way the trial was held however I have no problem with the punishment as it fits the crime.
There is NO dignity in death.
January 2nd, 2007 at 10:50 am
I know he did unspeakable things but seeing him at the end…. humanity is so frail.
Jesus still died for him too.
January 2nd, 2007 at 2:10 pm
People should read the Bible if they believe in capital punishment. Forgiveness, grace, redemption, the acknowledgement of our own sins, the sanctity of life…how do these fit with capital punishment? How can one be anti-abortion yet pro-capital punishment?
I was repulsed by the publication and broadcast of images of Hussein’s hanging. I am repulsed that we live in a society where it is socially acceptable to publish such things, where death is little more than entertainment.
January 2nd, 2007 at 3:17 pm
What disgusted me as much as the publishing of the images of his hanging, was the taunting of the people there to witness his execution, the supposed “victors” in this battle. There were reports they calling the name of a muslim clerlic who has risen to a position of power since his demise that was in oppistion to saddam.
No glory in taunting a condemed nam
January 2nd, 2007 at 3:53 pm
Dan, I’ve been thinking about this some more…I don’t like labelling people as “evil” - I prefer to label their actions as evil. I don’t think we are ever good or evil, but rather have the capacity for both - to me, following Christ is largely about choosing a path which will help me do more good than evil. It is not I that is “good” - it is following Christ which (hopefully!) helps me do more good and less bad.
Wakey…those things shock and disgust me too. I am amazed by humanity’s capacity for evil. I am amazed by our ability to cast people as the Other and distance ourselves from them. I do not for a moment want to suggest that Saddam Hussein has anything in common with Christ, yet we know from the stories of Christ’s crucifixion, and our knowledge of medieval history, that humans have always found watching the death of others entertaining. We in the West today claim so much moral superiority, we claim to be so “civilised”, yet I see no evidence of it here.
Homer, I could be wrong, but I think Jesus might have had something to say about Genesis 9:6.
January 2nd, 2007 at 5:43 pm
I watched the video.. it wasn’t that great. What was even less great was that I didn’t feel anything.
We do have a culture that loves to watch people being killed. Think of all the movies that are based on this premise. So when something like this happens, and I’ve seen the video, what am I supposed to think? That this is some guy that Jesus died for? That maybe he regretted his actions at the last moment and if released might have done a lot of good for the world? That life is precious?
No! I was thinking “Damn, this camera work is atrocious!”
Love the entertainment.
January 2nd, 2007 at 8:41 pm
I ahve been out of reach of news papers and tv since before New Years and so I ahven’t seen any images of Saddams death - and I am glad. I am saddened by his hanging - not his death - he did deserve to die - but no human had the right to kill him - I am just as guilty as he is I am just as able to coimmitt acts of unspeakable evil and I am just as likely to enjoy the voyuerism of seeing the images of his death as others have been…and that is why I am glad I could not see them.
Saddam comitted horrendous acts of brutality and evil - but he was not alone - he is not the only perpertator of evil and he will not be the last.
God bless the people of Iraq and God give all of us the grace and courage to fight and to oppose evil wherever we find it - eving if that place is within ourselves
January 2nd, 2007 at 11:28 pm
I like watching historical films, and am especially fascinated by medieval history. One scene typical for films of that period is where the crowd gathers around to watch a hanging or burning at the stake. The looks in their faces suggest that they are glad it is not them in the limelight. The victim gives the crowd something to jeer at, to feel better than. And they are often whipped up into an hysterical frenzy. There is something about watching death. Now I know I am describing cinematography and our interpretations on medieval crowd behaviour, but somehow it seems reminiscent of the global eye on the death of Saddam. Ok, we are not all there jeering and staring in a literal sense, but modern technology allows us to watch the greatest of brutality from our armchairs. And to judge as freely as our medieval forebears. I, like most of the west am not fond of Saddam. However, killing him and broadcasting it as western entertainment is no more admirable than Saddam’s own heinous actions.
January 3rd, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Bec, supply a quote where Jesus says Genesis 9:6 is out of date
January 4th, 2007 at 8:29 am
Homer, I might be way out here, but it seems to me that there’s some similarities between Genesis 9:6 and ‘an eye for an eye’, and I know that Jesus had something to say about that.
January 4th, 2007 at 10:19 am
poor HOmer - wrong again
Bec it must trouble you being so young and yet so able to outwit, outplay and outlast Homerpaline (thats’ something the Sydney Anglicans buonce their wackiest doctrines off before unleashing them on the rest of the world)
January 4th, 2007 at 10:49 am
Homer, for the record, I don’t like the way Christians can throw Bible verses at each other as if they were grenades. However you make it difficult to do anything else when you commence a conversation with “People should re-read Genesis 9:6 if you do not believe in capital punishment” (meaning: Homer thinks that anyone who is against the death penalty doesn’t read their Bible).
January 4th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
Bec,
it is very easy to answer.
If you think the verse does not endorse capital punishment then say so and why.
If you think Jesus overrules this then say so and why.
You maybe thinking of what Jesus says on the sermon on the mount where he says an eye for an eye is not revenge.
January 4th, 2007 at 1:45 pm
Homer, perhaps you can refer back to your post above in future, and follow the same steps.
You’re spot on with your final sentence. Can you please explain (following the formula above) why you think Jesus does not overrule it?!
January 4th, 2007 at 2:14 pm
I see Bec so your argument is Jesus overrules this verse but you can’t just find any evidence to back you up.
Remember it is up to YOU to show how this verse is overridden.
which is
6 “ Whoever sheds man’s blood,
By man his blood shall be shed;
For in the image of God
He made man.
now my guess why Jesus does not override it is because the punishment fits the crime which is the only form of justice.
Another way of saying it would be the punishment is proportionate to the crime. An eye for an eye… in other words
January 4th, 2007 at 2:27 pm
Sorry Homer, I thought I had explained myself. Clearly you need more help than Greg.
Matthew 5 - 38″You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
I’m struggling to see how that could mean anything else than…well, what it says. It was said that whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood be shed. But Jesus tells us, do not resist an evil person.
Now, I certainly don’t think that this means we should roll over and let people walk all over us, but I do think that it has something to say about Genesis 9:6!
January 4th, 2007 at 2:48 pm
I hate to tell a person who has studied law this but one is about a judgment of a previous action.
Jesus does not even address a person who murders a person.
Jews took an eye for an eye … as a ruling for revenge. Jesus is saying this is not the case.
He is NOT talking about criminal judgement.
January 4th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
I’m sorry Homer, I don’t really understand your post. I’ll address it line by line:
I don’t know what you mean re: judgment about a previous action - can you please explain what you’re on about?
No, Jesus doesn’t address a person who murders a person. He does, however, mention assault.
Again, the third line makes no sense to me. Are you trying to say that there’s a difference between “just desserts” and “revenge”? If so, I agree with you - however where do we draw the line? When is capital punishment “just desserts”, and when is it “revenge”?
With your last line - I’m not sure what you mean. I think you might mean “legal”, rather than “criminal” judgment. I think you’re trying to draw a distinction between legal judgment and moral judgment (correct me if that’s not what you’re saying). I agree that there can sometimes be a distinction, but in Jesus’ time, it was far more blurry than it is today. Further, as I pointed out, Jesus does mention something which is regarded as a crime under our legal system (striking someone on the cheek).
January 4th, 2007 at 3:55 pm
Bec,
Get this very strongly.
Capital punishment is NOT revenge. It is about punishment fitting the crime as Genesis 9:6 so well puts it.
Jesus does not address criminal matters at all. He is talking about behaviour that happens in the street and one’s behaviour after it happens.
The other is determined by Society after the case has been proven.
In other words you are comparing apples with oranges
January 4th, 2007 at 4:30 pm
Homer, I’m sorry - I don’t understand you. I don’t know what you mean by “criminal” - as I said, I think you mean “legal” - are you saying that how we as individuals deal with something that occurs in the street is different to how the legal system deals with something?
Are you trying to say that Genesis 9:6 is addressed to the community/state/whatever, and how it should respond to certain acts; while Matthew 5:38 is addressed to individuals and how they should respond to certain acts?
If so, I’m not convinced this is a viable argument, but I’ll have to think about it some more. Aside from the obvious need to prevent individuals taking the law into their own hands, I’m not sure why an individual has to turn the other cheek, but the community can mete out punishment.
January 4th, 2007 at 4:32 pm
Homer, I’m also interested in what you do with the verses immediately preceding the one you’re quoting. How do you read Genesis 9:4+5?
January 4th, 2007 at 4:34 pm
Capital Punishment is ALL abuot revenge Homer - revenge and nothing else. According to your theory Paul should have been dragged off to court and then punished with death for his part inthe deaths of early Christians. David should also have been dealt the death penalty for his ordering te circumstances which led to the death of Uriah - accept it HOmerpaline - you are wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong
January 4th, 2007 at 4:37 pm
What do you think of the cartoon posted by Phil? http://www.signposts.org.au/2007/01/03/saddam-hussein-the-cartoon/
January 4th, 2007 at 4:37 pm
that was a questoin to Homerpaline
January 4th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
Greg,
David should have been put to death but God forgave him.
God also had another plan for Paul however he was within Jewish law at the time.
read Genesis 9:6. The only punishment that fits the crime for murder is capital punishment. Your argument is with God.
Bec to be quite direct Jesus doesn’t even approach dealing with murder or any other crime.
He is talking about behaviour with other people.
He doesn’t say do not worry about crime at all.
He goes about rebutting common Jewish tradition that has distorted the law.
January 4th, 2007 at 5:25 pm
Jesus doesn’t deal with crime but he deals with the law?
Ok, now I’m even more confused.
Jesus told us to turn the other cheek when someone strikes us. How is that not addressing a crime?
January 4th, 2007 at 6:03 pm
“…7 But when they continued asking him, he looked up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw the first stone at her.”"
[John 8:7 - BBE]
Forgiveness, mercy, love.
The person without sin should tie the noose, fire the gun, wield the sword, flick the switch, turn on the gas, carry out the execution.
It is never in any way a Christian act to condone, encourage or participate in the death of another person for whom Christ died, regardless of the crime. It is not Christian to withhold clemency and fail to express the love of God in the forgiveness of debts and the sparing of life.
I don’t believe condemning people to death is a part of God’s revelation in Christ and it’s not a part of Christ’s message to the world.
Let he who is without sin condemn another to death. We’re called to forgive as He forgave us, called to demonstrate love and to show mercy as the instruments of God’s redemption, to bring a murderer to Jesus and the cross, as often happens, spending his life in good works that reveal the Grace of God, as often happens.
As greg the explorer pointed out, Stephen forgave his enemies, those who were murdering him, Just like his master, yet Christ and the church did not seek or advocate Paul’s execution as a murderer which would practically defeat the purpose of the cross and the forgiveness of sins, and these where terrible sins being laid to Saul’s account. Would we find ourselves supporting the state if it chose to execute Paul for murder? Imagine such a thing. That rather than praying for Paul’s safety and release from a prison cell we suggest Rome should execute him according to Gen 9!
January 4th, 2007 at 6:31 pm
Bec, check out Jewish law at the time but striking someone wasn’t really top of the tops but it occurred regularly in society.
Halieus’s thesis is absurd. First take something out of context and then if you take it to its natural conclusion then there would be no convictions as everyone sins!
January 4th, 2007 at 6:58 pm
Homer says that Hallieus’s “thesis” of grace, love and forgiveness is absurd. Made me giggle.
January 4th, 2007 at 7:05 pm
no phil I didn’t say that you just can’t read.
Halieus is saying let the person without sin make the decision.
Besides being woefully out of context the only logical step is that no-one can be convicted.