Amway and the Contemporary Church II
Further to my earlier post on Amway and the Contemporary Church.
Riverview Church’s new acquisition “Destiny People” (now Riverview OC) has a founding a lead Pastor known as Wes Beavis.
I would like to know what theological qualification Mr. Beavis has – (we recently expressed some surprise at the theological contradictions made on his web site).
Anyway, theological precision aside, I recently received an email that commented:
“ we knew Wes & Eleanore years & years ago just before he left for the US to do the Amway circuit - so yes, any prosperity books are his …”
So in response, I thought I would do my own research and see if there was any truth to the Amway link, and inspired by ‘Saint’, I got down on my knees and consulted ‘Google god”…
And as fast as a bolt of lightning can hit the head, the response from Google god was short, sharp and direct:
Google god revealed to me that Wes Beavis writes books like “Escape to Prosperity” which, if you are young and ambitious – you will find in your Amway Start-up kit …
And not only will you get Wes’ book in the kit, it is accompanied by wisdom books by like-minded authors including:
“About Biblical Economics” - By (“Jesus was a Rich Man”) John Avanzini
“Opportunity Knocks” – By CCC Pastor Pat Mesiti
What is also interesting is that Wes also gets a mention in this affidavit on an investigation into the operation of how the speaking circuit works at Amway conferences in Texas (USA):
In this particular inquiry, the response to a question about what he does for a living, Defendant Ted Fish states:
“I’m in the Amway business, Quixtar business, I’m a minister. I do all of those things…”
During, Mr Fish’s questioning he then goes on to talk about the worship services held at Amway conferences which describes Mr Beavis as being an ‘entertainer’:
Q “did you have a worship service?2 A. Yes, we did.
Q. And did you lead it? A. Yes, I led it.
Q. And was there a collection? A. Yes, there was.
Q. And did the money for the collection, was any portion of it used to offset the expenses of the weekend? A. I’m trying to remember what we did with that offering. Yes. Yes, it was as a matter of fact. By “offset” that went to the speaker, if that’s what you’re talking about.
Q. The speaker for the worship service? A. Yes.
Q. Did you have a special speaker for the worship service? A. No. One of our people we had there.
Q. He was not a minister? He wasn’t speaking about spiritual things? A. Yes. He’s an evangelist. .
Q.Oh, okay. A. Wes Beavis.
Q. Oh. He’s the entertainer that you described A. Speaker, entertainer, author. He’s all of those things together.
Q. How much did you pay him? A. The best of my recollection, that offering was somewhere around $1600, if I’m not mistaken.Q. Did you give him any money on top of that A. Yes.
Q. How much money? A. I think his fee — I’m just going by memory now — I think his fee was 2500”
It all makes intriguing reading and gives great insight into the relationship between Amway Executives and Church men and also the mechanics behinds the Amway / Contemporary Church Business models. Like for a select few on the Amway speaking circuit, for which “The world’s best business opportunity” does really work, I am sure that the Prosperity Theology works for those on the Contemporary Church’s ”Purple Circle” - even supplying for the needs of servants who “keep up the good times for Jesus“! (Wow! Remind me - Do you have to tithe on your increase if you’re a lucky Pastor that is given a car!).
(And no I am not bitter - I just see the humour in a secretive Church Business model that enriches its Pastors through ‘dodgy theology’ and just hope to high heaven that such expensive gifts to Pastors do not come out of a (Pat Mesiti / CCC associated) “Robb Thompson styled Ministry account“. But it is really, really difficult to tell when Churches refuse to release financials to “Partners” upon request…).
The links between Amway and the Contemporary Church, especially CCC’s own Pat Mesiti and the sprawling Riverview Campus in OC are more than a little difficult to deny!
And if a Pastor of a 150 person Church that meets in a theatre can command $USD4,000 to speak at a worship service during a weekend Amway convention - how much exactly is paid to a MegaChurch Pastor on the “Lucrative Pentecostal Speaking Circuit“? An “unjustifiable” amount of money perhaps…?
Lionfish will hereby rests his case; and conclude as did St Jerome (a.d. 345-420) of the early Middle Ages who wrote,
“Avoid, as you would the plague, a clergyman who is also a man of business.”
February 6th, 2007 at 9:03 am
Is this the same Wes Beavis who was part of the 1200 strong ‘Church of Christ’ church, meeting in Figtree NSW more than a decade ago? I knew he went to the states (as did his Senior Pastor of the day) always wondered what he got up to?
Jack
February 6th, 2007 at 1:08 pm
Sure is!
February 6th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
I was engaged as a consultant 9for 12 months) to that particular church during his era … he was quite a character even back then.
Jack
February 6th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
I just wish that Revenue and similar quasi-Christian groups would just be upfront about their money-making schemes.
Phil Baker has said here that he’s done stuff for Amway, so it would be good if for once they could just be upfront and say this Orange County venture is about using church money and manpower to make new business connections in the US.
I actually have no problem if Revenue is marketed as a church for Amway and Omegatrend people..but it should allow people to make an INFORMED decision on whether they want to be involved in a church run on Amway principles…instead of cloaking what they’re up to in secret dealings that have to be unearthed by Google searches.
Perhaps a published ‘register of business interests’ is now required for clergy in Australia.
(I can’t see why most pastors in Australia would be opposed to it ..because it would only take them 5 seconds to write ‘none’ when filling out the register)
February 6th, 2007 at 6:13 pm
Beavis ?
i’m so amazed at these names that keep popping up, what with mesiti back on deck, when’s wayne gwilliam, going to pop up again?
February 8th, 2007 at 11:59 am
Another interesting post Lionfish.
“I’m in the Amway business, Quixtar business, I’m a minister. I do all of those things…”
He may as well have said, “I’m a swindler, a thief, and a minister, I do all of those things…”
I think it’s more Christian to be a common thief than a Christian minister who’s involved in a multilevel marketing scam with it’s deception and manipulation. At least a thief generally understands his actions are immoral and doesn’t invoke the name of Christ before looting his fellow man.
In any case, rather than simply blur the lines between business and Christian ministry, Ted Fish seems to have done away with the distinction altogether. There’s no telling which interest ministers with his attitude presently serve, God or money. “Speaker”, “entertainer”, evangelist and minister, have become interchangeable.
February 8th, 2007 at 12:50 pm
I’m fascinated by the psychological aspect of this.
I mean it’s pretty ballsy to be able to front up to a church congregation week after week and fleece them.
It must take a person with a particular psychological profile; a Peter Foster-type character.
Maybe fleecing a room full of church people rather than a room full of secular businessman adds to the thrill of the fleecing.
Although unlike the thrill of, say, being in an adulterous relationship, the thrill for the cheater must be somewhat diminished in a ‘contemporary’ church, because everyone in the church has got their head up their arse and is not paying attention…so there’s no prospect of being caught.
Mesiti’s psychological profile would be fascinating.
February 8th, 2007 at 12:53 pm
Speaking of Mesiti, he’s been conspicuously absent from the stage at CCC in recent times, after a burst of front-and-centre activity during the year.
Seems too long of an absence to be summer holidays-related.
February 8th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
Perhaps the “Robb Thompson” debacle came back to bite him on the proverbial…..
February 8th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
“500,000 People Were Spell-Bound When Pat [Mesiti] Took The Stage in Washington DC.
Every week Pat is on the road speaking to groups from throughout Australia and overseas. His biggest gig was infront of 500,000 people in Washington DC where his message hit a chord with the crowd, leaving them breathless for more.
Pat’s energy and vitality is contagious as he whips the crowd into a frenzy with his stories… empowering the audience to believe in themselves, and giving them the tools, motivation and mindset to be a winner.
Or as Pat says:”I use logic to open your mind… and emotion to fill your bank account”
From http://www.mesiti.com
February 8th, 2007 at 1:15 pm
also from http://www.mesiti.com.au
“Success breeds success. It’s only natural, if you hang around with successful people a little piece of their magic rubs off.”
February 8th, 2007 at 2:04 pm
And this also from http://www.mesiti.com.au
“But woe to (alas for) you who are rich (abounding in material resources), for you already are receiving your consolation (the solace and sense of strengthening and cheer that come from prosperity) and have taken and enjoyed your comfort in full [having nothing left to be awarded you].”
Whoops sorry, no, my mistake, that is from the Bible, Luke 6:24.
February 8th, 2007 at 5:51 pm
Lance you wrote at 7
“I’m fascinated by the psychological aspect of this.
I mean it’s pretty ballsy to be able to front up to a church congregation week after week and fleece them.
It must take a person with a particular psychological profile; a Peter Foster-type character.”
Lance, Dave Gilpin pastor of Hope City Church, Sheffield has already done the personality profile for you!
http://www.yourelookinggreat.co.uk/heart–soul/up-close–personal!/adha.aspx
According to a former member of his church he just claims to have ADHD in order to cover up his bad behaviour.
February 8th, 2007 at 7:16 pm
I know you’ve posted a few times about Hope City…and I’ve probably been a bit negligent not to have taken more notice of Dave Gilpin…(maybe I have an undiagnosed attention deficit)
But he is starting to show up on the radar (including some videos) so it’s easier to scrutinise how he operates.
I won’t say much more for now…except to say I actually agree with one aspect of what he says..that in some ways these disorders can be an asset…(for example ..I think those in churches who have a borderline or manic depressive personality can be good early warning indicators that all is not right in the emotional life of a church…much in the same way as canaries were used in coal mining to detect gas leaks)
But the trick is to identify the place in the church in which the pastor’s disorder can be of benefit to the church…
Maybe it’s in the role of an outreach to people with autistic spectrum disorders..(and I’ve chatted online with Christians in the UK about how they’re misunderstood/how they don’t pick up the regular social cues..)and such a specific outreach would be a great thing…but not in the senior pastor’s role..
This particularly concerns me with Gilpin.
“For certain periods of my life, it has even had a life of its own, like a train with no driver, playing tricks on me and often bringing me into the all consuming world of obsession and paranoia.”
I’d be wanting to know what checks and balances are in place..so that if that re-occurs .. there are protocols to deal with the pastor’s ‘all-consuming world of obsession and paranoia’.
I look forward to taking a closer look at him now the videos are out there and you can get a sense of how he comes across.
February 8th, 2007 at 9:36 pm
Hi Lance,
yes, Gilpin’s public profile has gone a bit higher recently as he is trying to expand his empire. Hope City has a large new website and they have appeared on God TV - he came across quite badly on God TV - you only have to look at his videos to see what he’s like. (see also my post on ‘How to Fleece’ thread). They are also now starting to turn up on the ’speaking circuit’ - they are linked to Planetshakers and S4 and as I posted before, they are hosting the Pringles at ‘Fabulous’ this year. I think Gilpin is coming to Aus (or is that Oz?) later on this year, so you may even be lucky enough to see him in person. Would it be the case that a new(ish) church would only get on the ’speaking circuit’ once it had enough members to make it ‘worthwhile’ for a ’star’ like Pringle & co to visit it? Hence the incentive to build a new megachurch?
He’s very much out of the Houston/Pringle mould and his teachings are straight out of the Prosperity Gospel. It was thanks to Signposts that I found out that some of the teachings at Hope£ity were just copied from Brian Houston’s ‘You Need More Money’.
Agree with what you say about the more fragile members in a Church being early warning indicators of emotional abuse going on in the Church. Just a bit tough on the ‘canaries’ as it were, as they are just chewed up and spat out by this type of Church. Those who are spat out are just abandoned as losers with ‘problems’. The abuse comes from the top down.
As it happens I have a few close friends with (mild) Aspergers and I would be very concerned with a church of this type approaching them, as they would be very open to the type of abuse perpertrated by it. I also don’t think that autism would be of benefit to a senior pastor. I think that Dave overplays his hand in this respect - it makes a nice excuse for bad behaviour.
So far as checks on the leaders, forget it, the members of the Church are taught not to question anything coming from them - any questioning is met with the usual ‘they are men of God, everything they say and do is from God, they are not to be questioned’ mantra. Any member questioning the leaders is shunned and thrown out.
Good luck with the videos - you’ll probably need a stiff drink, (or two),
Rosy
February 8th, 2007 at 9:53 pm
Exactly. That is the objective of the WOF Ponzie scheme MegaChurch pastor. Build your Church with as many downllines as possible and then you will climb the pyramid of the speaking circuit game. A bigger Church can command bigger fees and consequently attract larger names under reciprical arrangements.
That is why Brian Houston has ‘arrived’ and gets the Scooby Doo Villains such as Joyce meyer and non-trintarian TD jakes … and smaller, lesser churches cannot.
Its all game and an event marketing business - ran like an amusement park. The bigger the attraction - the more visitors etc.
February 8th, 2007 at 9:56 pm
If it was not a game, and really a Church, then these Pastors might care that they allow heretics such as TD Jakes headline their conferences.
But all that counts is that he is a ‘big name’,pulls a big crown, and has a big church with a big conference thatno doubt some Hillsong speakers will speak at at some point in the future for $$$.
February 8th, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Ah, I see, I thought that was what was going on. Just those pesky strip searches by airport security to contend with then . . .
February 11th, 2007 at 11:12 pm
February 12th, 2007 at 9:12 am
I started to watch them, but felt sick. I gave up!!
It should make some prophetic voices very angry.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:12 pm
Wes Beavis . . . we were “members” of his church in the OC for a while. Afer a while, most people up and left after they realized he’s not a sincere minister. is he even a minister? i know he married a couple or two. he was all about the money. bringing people on stage to tell about how they gave an extra $200 that week because they were blessed. isnt that supposed to be private? many were seduced by his “success” and he had a lot of Amway people as his congregation. he preached about working through problems but i guess when he lost most of his “rich” tithing members, he miraculously had Riverview “adopt” this failing church.
March 8th, 2007 at 11:47 pm
Thanks very much for the heads-up eddiev.
That explains a heck of a lot because this Revenue Church venture seems to have really come out of the blue.
June 9th, 2007 at 12:16 am
Sorry to raise this old thread again but just to let you folks know that the CCC network in the UK is growing stronger.
“Dr” Phil Pringle spoke at CCC Bath & Bristol (AKA Freedom Centre) June 3rd and Dave Gilpin (Hope City Church) is their Weekend Away guest speaker. If you check out the church website you’ll find that they also have a building fund. Seems that the Pastors Andrew and Betsy de Thierry are getting promoted to Dublin CCC … Dubliners beware!
Their theology is full properity gospel rubbish and there is even a smattering of replacement theology … ideal if you want to make the “new israel” scared shitless about being under God’s curse for not bringing their tithe …
I resurrected my profile by the way. (in case you were wondering about my previous brief appearance quite some time ago.)
Reason I disappeared off the radar … Real Life (TM)
could anyone please send me some links to resources I can use to help friends/relatives get out of the Christian City Cult?
… many thanks ….
June 9th, 2007 at 12:22 am
oh, just remembered to say this …
have you noticed the ironic names of these cult churches:
HOPE city church (I am HOPING for more money?)
FREEDOM centre (I am FREE from a mortgage …?)
Are there anymore ???
June 9th, 2007 at 1:48 am
Bull,
Phil and Chris Pringle and Gerard Keehan were speakers last weekend at Dave Gilpin’s Hope City Church in Sheffield at the “Fabulous” conference.
Hope City is presently trying to raise £1,000,000 for church expansion in the north of England. You might want to have a look at the following article from Hope City’s website, called ‘Financing the Future’, which is (of course) preaching the ‘prosperity gospel’ message.
To quote from the article -
“‘Poverty’ is therefore nothing holy in God’s eyes. Why would any father want their children to be lacking anything in their lives? Jesus himself said if you ask him for bread he’s not the type of father who gives you a stone. He wants to bless you! He gives good things to his children. He’s made a way for you to get everything that you could possibly need to fulfil your destiny. He’s deposited your inheritance in the bank and he’s waiting for you to make a withdrawal. The problem that exists in our minds at times is that we think that our destiny is just about us. We think that as long as we have what we ‘need’ we’ll be okay. The bigger picture is that our destiny is tied into the destiny of His church.”
http://www.yourelookinggreat.co.uk/hope-city-church/building-the-future.aspx
I am sorry to hear about your friends/relatives. Are you in the UK?
June 9th, 2007 at 1:59 am
BTW has anyone else noticed the resemblance between Phil Pringle and Dave Gilpin? Has the AoG started cloning pastors as well as churches?
http://www.christiancitychurch.eu/bathandbristol/index.php/en/whats_on_events.html
June 9th, 2007 at 2:02 am
Yup Rosy,
it’s not good because while my wife is on the same hymn-sheet as me her two brothers aren’t … and we asked one to stand with us for the dedication of our daughter but he can’t come and stand with us … maybe the movement won’t let him take a sunday off ? (he is the PA guru) … I don’t know.
Are you ex-CCC Rosy?
June 9th, 2007 at 3:31 am
No, I’m not ex-CCC (or any other AoG church), but I can certainly sympathise with your situation . . .
Have you seen this site?
http://sheffield.heavenforum.com/My-Story-f4/My-Story-a-warning-re-contemporary-church-t2.htm
Nothing new on there for some time, but a few personal tales regarding Hope City Church that mirror much of what is said on Signposts. (I think the forum was set up specifically for people who have left Hope City). Reading through the comments on that forum it’s striking how very very similar Hope City is to CCC/Hillsong in the way it operates and how it treats its members. I think there was some mention of a Bristol church on there but I’m not sure if it was Freedom.
I’m sorry that I don’t have links to any other resourses, other than the links I’ve found here on Signposts, regarding the AoG ‘prosperity doctrine’ churches. Hillsong and its clones don’t have the public profile in the UK that they do in Australia, presumably because the AoG in the UK is so much smaller than in Australia.
I wish you well.
June 9th, 2007 at 11:57 am
Have these people read the sermon on the mount???
June 9th, 2007 at 1:36 pm
Contemporary Churches have cult-like parctices in that they leverage peoples spirituality for power and control - howver they are family controlled event marketing Businesses.
When one ‘joins’ these groups as a “Partnet’ they have no ‘rights’ under the incorporations law as Members of mainstream Churches do.
If you vae a close look at the articles of association for Riverview Church, the only Members that have any rights are the ‘trustee members, this is predominately thes same group as the Board.
So a ‘Partner’ joins a Church like CCC or Riverview or Hope city, gives up his time, talents and 10%+ of income - yet has no voting rights or say what so ever. Ecerything is submitted to the vision of the Senior Pastor. If you have an issue, it cannot be dealt with fairly, or at an annual open AGM … you either submit or leave.
These Leaders ‘Lord it over their congregations’ and have set them selves up as ‘Kings’ in their own little thiefdoms.
Test and see as to what I asy is True. You will find that Lionfish has not spoken falsely … and that is why the likes of Phil Baker will not defned themselves openly and publically (except to didactically deliver rhetoric to their own adherents).