A cultural catholic
An interesting article this morning, if only because it shares some of my own feelings. Catherine Deveny says:
I don’t believe in God any more. I’m a cultural Catholic. I couldn’t swear on the Bible, I’d have to take an oath on New Scientist.
You may laugh, and I wouldn’t blame you, but my faith was ultimately challenged, not by the unequal distribution of wealth and suffering in the world. And not by genital mutilation inflicted on children in the name of God.
I started questioning the existence of God as I explained Bible stories to my children. “So Mary was a virgin and an angel appeared before her and told her that she was going to have a baby and he was the Son of God. When he grew up he walked on water, fed a massive crowd with a few loaves of bread and couple of fish, turned water into wine and then they nailed him on to a wooden cross and he died. Then he came back to life. Actually, hang on guys, this sounds like a crock.”
And before you start writing letters, I don’t need saving. I’m not having a go at anyone else’s faith here; this is simply a comment on my own. And I am sure that if you have faith, any rigorous discussion will not anger or offend you, it will just strengthen you own faith. Faith is a personal and private thing. I’m going to make like the late comedian Bill Hicks and say, “if you don’t like what I say about God, then forgive me”.
Sometimes I feel that doubt has been one of my strongest companions on this work of faith. A favourite line of a song that I have quoted often is “If I can’t believe in you, it doesn’t mean I don’t”. Because there as some aspects of the faith in which I have unwavering passionate belief. I believe strongly that the call of Jesus Christ was a radical, scary, confrontational and completely ass-about agenda for the world (arse-about at least on the values of this world). And I have a strong conviction though not based on any evidence or experience that this arse-about call of God is exactly the thing to bring love, justice and redemption to humankind. That is a big belief.
But there are some of the aspects of belief which I can’t quite come at. I struggle with a whole range of issues. I struggle because the things that I can believe sometimes seem riddled with inconsistencies. I do tell my god-children and nieces and nephews about Jesus. But I pick my words wisely when doing so.
February 21st, 2007 at 12:09 pm
Just don’t tell your pastor and you’ll be fine.
February 21st, 2007 at 12:28 pm
Whoops, I think he already knows!!
February 21st, 2007 at 6:10 pm
Jesus wouldn’t wanna be a Christian either if he was alive today. Turn or burn baby.
February 21st, 2007 at 7:28 pm
I don’t know if I ever mentioned that the fact that you always gave us permission to doubt things, was an enormous relief from the christian society in which I’d always been involved in which everything was assumed except perhaps for the most peripheral issues.
February 21st, 2007 at 7:32 pm
you gorgeous thing. When are you going to abandon those new promising careers and come back to Northern so you can flatter us more?
February 21st, 2007 at 8:38 pm
Athiests infuriate evangelical christians because they trigger that tiny little voice inside the head of every believer that says “what if it’s all bulls**t?”
February 21st, 2007 at 8:57 pm
‘Athiests infuriate evangelical christians because they trigger that tiny little voice inside the head of every believer that says “what if it’s all bulls**t?”’
Na, wrong. sorry
The little voice inside my head is nothing compared to the mighty roar inside my heart.
it’s the little voice that makes simple faith so powerful. That’s what infuriates athiests
February 21st, 2007 at 11:13 pm
Have never had an athiest make me think that, have had some of my own experiences make me think that, and have some of the church politics make me question sometimes, but athiests, they usually make me believe stronger.
rev
February 22nd, 2007 at 9:44 am
I have to say that I agree with Rev on this one zqudlyba (or Donald Duck, or Sanders, or China Plate, or whichever other name you choose to go by……)
February 22nd, 2007 at 1:12 pm
I agree with the Rev, too.
February 22nd, 2007 at 4:50 pm
The problem with atheists is that they’re so hung up about God. Dig below the surface, and every atheist I’ve ever talked to has had a bad experience with a Christian or a Christian group somewhere along the line.
(I’m not saying this is true for all atheists in the world, just for the ones I’ve met)
February 22nd, 2007 at 6:41 pm
hi Janet, we’ve only ‘met’ through Signposts. I am an atheist but not as a result of any bad experiences with Christianity/Christians. Yes I have had bad experiences with Christians, but I was already a non believer, so my atheism was not as a result of this, and it has also not been affected either one way or the other.
Regards,
Rosy
February 22nd, 2007 at 6:55 pm
Is belief in God necessary for people to get along with each other or to live a moral/happy/fulfilled life? Don’t think so. Some people seem to find comfort or meaning in a god belief - why deny them this? In what sense it is true, seems to be difficult to pin down.
My observation is that such beliefs are a distraction from understanding reality. Whatever beliefs you have, you still need an intact and functioning mind to have them. Why not use your mind to observe and understand reality directly? Instead of clogging up your mind with metaphysical theories of an uncertain nature.
February 22nd, 2007 at 10:05 pm
Hi Rosy… glad to meet you in a cyber sense! I suppose if I stop to think about it, the atheists who carry on about it are likely to be the ones with a chip on their shoulder… (a bit like fundamentalist Christians really!)
Another prejudice shattered!
I’m guessing you’re a bit of a thinker to have come to this position without it being reactive… (here comes another sweeping generalisation)… I find agnosticism (”maybe there’s something out there, maybe not”) is a lot commoner than atheism. I also find belief in something spiritual (although more often, not in a religiously conventional sense) is more common than agnostism in the chicky mumsy world I tend to inhabit. What’s your take on this? Do you talk about it much?
February 23rd, 2007 at 2:45 am
Hi Janet, glad to have been of assistance! Yes, I do think it’s very possibly the case that the believers/atheists who make a ‘thing’ about their stance in the world do so because they are of a certain personality type, rather than because of their actual viewpoints. I have to admit that I find the extremists in both camps equally irritating.
Regarding agnosticism being more prevalent than atheism, I think it’s possibly easier for someone to say that they are agnostic, rather than atheist. In the past I’ve described myself using both terms, depending not only on my viewpoint at that particular time, but also the circumstances in which the question arose. Never forgetting of course, the wonderfully useful ‘no we don’t really go to church much’, which is usually addressed towards the CoE vicar at weddings/christenings/funerals/church fetes etc.
I think it’s also possibly the case that if someone has no real interest in really thinking about, or discussing, religion/philosophy (call it what you will) but they don’t necessarily want to be seen as being ‘religious’ it can be an easy or quick answer for them to say they are agnostic. The other ‘default setting’ as it were (certainly it used to be the case here in the UK) is for everyone to say they are CoE, even though they have never been inside a church other than for weddings etc.
By spiritual are you referring to ‘New Age’ type beliefs or religions other than Christianity?
I consider myself lucky to have friends and family who cover a wonderfully wide range of viewpoints on religion/belief/lack thereof, and I value their different outlooks on life.
February 23rd, 2007 at 3:29 am
Hi again.
Where I live it’s a fairly “anglo” suburb, so more “new age” than religions other than Christianity. Crystal power, angel cards, consulting mediums, “the journey”, astrology, past lives, meditation, etc. etc. Plus belief in God, but not in a churchy way. (having said that, there are quite a lot of “practicing” Christians at the local school…just that kind of area maybe?)
I’m interested in the thinking that led you to atheism (rather than the more common apathy, agnostism or default C of C position) if you’re happy to share this… it does strike me as a far more deliberate (hence thought about) position than the “no real interest” default positions.
February 24th, 2007 at 3:42 am
Ah, ‘New Age’ beliefs - no they’re not my thing either!
I’ve been thinking it over very carefully and my best explanation is that I’ve just never actually believed in God. Plenty of Christians in my family, including ministers etc and I went to church as a child, but so far as an actual ‘belief’ in God - no, never have believed. On the intellectual side of things, again everything I’ve read whether on religion, science or philosophy, has just confirmed my not believing. I suppose strictly speaking I could say I am agnostic, in accordance with Dawkins or Russell’s writings in this respect.
I’ve just been talking this over with my husband - he’s also an atheist - and he said roughly the same; he’s never believed in a God, no ‘bad’ experiences with religion, just no belief. Husband’s background as a child didn’t really include much in the way of religion, but again he says that nothing he’s seen about any religion has changed his viewpoint, but rather that it has strengthened his atheism. The quote above from Catherine Deveny actually rings very true here, from the occasions when I’ve been talking about passages from the bible with my husband (bearing in mind I’m more familiar with them than he is!).
I’ve also realised recently just how much of Christianity’s teachings that I disagree with (putting aside the question of belief). Although I agree there is good; for me there is too much that is not.
HTH
Rosy
February 24th, 2007 at 9:17 pm
If I think about it Rosie, I shouldn’t be surprised in the least, because I know heaps of people who have just “always believed in God”… like it’s grounded in them and they never really question it… what they read and observe for them just confirms it… so I shouldn’t be surprised that some people feel like they’ve “always not believed”.
I suppose because I end up talking to atheists with a chip on their shoulder I’d developed the “reactive” hypothesis… I guess the “chipless” atheists aren’t so noisy!
I really appreciate your taking the time to think about it and respond… I’m always interested in how people tick and what their journeys are like.
Actually, I don’t really relate to all those Christians who’ve “always believed” and never seriously questioned it, because I doubted absolutely everything and attempted to construct a faith from absolute first principles… a rather eccentric “truth seeker”. I found myself in a group last year of people in Christian ministry training… one was an ex-Buddhist, one was an ex-Hare Krishna, one was an ex- atheist, and I sometimes felt like… “ah, here are my people”! Those slightly odd people who seem driven by a search for truth and spiritual fulfilment and test out everything.
In terms of the areas like virgin birth etc… I think because my starting point was the “big” questions rather than the little ones, they didn’t strike me as particularly problematic… having decided the best explanation of life the universe and everything was that a Creator was behind it, it just didn’t seem too hard to me that a Creator could rustle up a sperm for a special occasion if He/She wished to! Perhaps for others… questioning the little things at first leads to doubting the big things?
March 1st, 2007 at 5:19 pm
Well, I was wrong again. There’s zillions of athiests out there… around 150 million or so! Far more Christians, Muslims, Hindus and others, but that’s still a significant number in my book. See:
http://www.theforgottenways.org/wp-content/uploads/ffe2-07statusreport06.pdf
July 9th, 2007 at 4:01 pm
“A MELBOURNE father says his five-year-old son was barred from enrolling in a local Catholic school because of his surname – Hell.
Alex Hell, 45, of Hoppers Crossing in Melbourne’s west, says despite the school now saying his son Max is welcome, he will move the family to Geelong.
“We’re quite devastated by the whole thing,” Mr Hell, a Catholic father of three, said.
Mr Hell admits that he volunteered the idea of changing his son’s name to his wife’s maiden name of Wembridge, a suggestion that was welcomed by the principal of St Peter the Apostle primary school Michael McGrath.
But after mulling it over Mr Hell decided against the name change and was then told that Max would not be able to attend the school.
“We are victims of our name,” Mr Hell said.
“The school has turned around and said Max can go there but why would you want to go there after being victimised.”
The primary school said today that the Hells were looking to enrol Max at St Peter the Apostle School from a state school “because of a range of matters that were impacting on the child”.
“The issue of a change of surname of the child was an initiative of the parents which they believed would assist the child in the transition of schools,” the school said.
After discussions between the parish priest and principal, St Peter the Apostle School has made an offer of enrolment to the student.
“The school is working with the family in the best interests of the child.”
However, Mr Hell, who says an offer for his son to now attend the school came only after he went to the media, is adamant that Max won’t be going to the school.
“I’d rather go to another school – we had no problem with the public school but we just wanted to further Max’s education,” Mr Hell said.
Mr Hell, of Austrian heritage, says the name means light or bright in German.
“It’s 2007, not 1407, it’s not the Dark Ages,” he said.
Mr Hell said the family is now looking at moving to Geelong, his wife Sue’s home town, to find a school for Max.”
From http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22042826-29277,00.html
July 10th, 2007 at 9:20 am
ABC Radio National PM program last night :
Marketing guru Bob Pritchard talks with reporter Ashley Hall about marketing for the Catholic Church
“BOB PRITCHARD: The Catholic Church is all about guilt, it’s judgemental, the website looks like something from the Da Vinci Code, half of it’s in Latin.
ASHLEY HALL: The marketing guru Bob Pritchard says the Catholic Church could learn a thing or two about recruitment from the Hillsong Church, where membership lists continue to grow.
BOB PRITCHARD: And if you look at the Hillsong website on the other hand, it’s contemporary, it’s sophisticated, it’s fun. It’s all about training you for a life of significance and, you know, your life of significance keeps flashing up. It’s all about you, it’s not about God at all.
ASHLEY HALL: Archbishop John Bathersby is planning to do exactly that.
JOHN BATHERSBY: We should be able to learn from all those things. But I think, ultimately I think we’re still in a growing process.”
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2007/s1973960.htm