Those damn women
I had been up for over an hour this morning before it registered with me that it is International Womens’ Day, but some people are not so lax, and I had an email from commenter Alan in my inbox by the time that I got to work. I am sure that Alan wouldn’t mind me quoting a couple of excerpts:
Well, there’s a most peculiar development going on in the churches at the moment.Archbishops and ethics lecturers are mounting a new campaign to get men into church.The argument runs like this:men hate the church(that of course will be news to women who look around and find its men who run the place),for five reasons:
*church meeting styles are feminine
*church leadership model is weak
*church is boring and safe:no risk
*church doesn’t relate to a man’s world
*blokes like to get their hands dirty
(”Five reasons why men hate the church”,Jeremy Halcrow,29.1.07 Syd Anglican website)
But maybe there’s another reason.
Perhaps men look around the church and don’t like the way other men are treating women.Maybe there’s too many men now comfortably and easily working with, working for,being directed by,in partnership with, women, that they are uneasy about the kind of blokey culture about in too many of our churches, and dont want to be a part of it!
I don’t know whether I agree with the latter commentary, but I find that there is a real paradox about the church/gender debate. First it seems clear that there are many more men in formal leadership in churches than women. If anything this is even more true of church plants and alternative model churches. As much as I embrace the “emerging” discussion, the movement does seem to have a more than usual affliction with the “angry young man” syndrome. No offence intended to any angry young men in the audience.
However, at the same time, there is a concern about the fact that men as a demographic are under-represented among church attenders. The NCLS says that only about 39% of church attenders in Australia are male and suggests a number of theories as to why. Part of this imbalance is almost certainly due to the fact that the elderly are over-represented in churches and women on average live longer than men. But what of the rest of the difference?
Increasingly, as Alan has pointed out, I have heard people discuss the idea that men are less likely to be involved with the church because church culture is somehow uncomfortable or anti-male. These are the arguments for people who endorse or at least condone a “bloke”inisation of leadership and culture in the church to “correct the balance”. I find these positions to raise some logical conflicts. I think we can point to the following facts that seem to be fairly well established.
- More women than men are regular church attenders
- More men than women are in formal leadership in the church
Which raises a whole bunch of questions. If the culture of the church is anti-church, then who creates the culture? If the leaders create the culture, then why are a group of predominantly male leaders creating such a “feminine” culture so as to be anathema to men? What about the culture of the church is feminine? The worship? The openness? The confessional? The singing? What?
In response to that, if the culture of the church is too female, then what changes will make the place more attractive to men? Surely most men are more sophisiticated than to respond to an increase on the ‘bloke’iness dial? So I have a couple of simple questions I would like an answer to, and I think that the commenters at signposts on this day are well qualified to give me those answers:
- Why are there more men than women in formal leadership in the church?
- What can be done to encourage more women into formal leadership in the church?
- Why are there more women than men amongst regular church attenders?
- What can be done to encourage more men to be in regular church attendance?
May 1st, 2007 at 2:23 pm
I thought ‘arranged marriages’ occured in Western culture?? They sure seemed to be plenty of ‘arranged marriages’ in pente circles. So much manipulation by pastors, parents & ‘friends’ of young people. So much competition for mates (especially among the girls). It always seemed that boys could be ‘bad’, because the ‘nice’ christian girls were waiting for the sexual prodigals to return home.
No such luck for the girls who decided to be ‘bad’ with the afore mentioned prodigals; “here is your shirt with a nice big red A on it dear”….”Oh and do try & stay away from the ‘nice’ girls dear”….”actually if you could stay away from church all together, that would be even better”.
I make an effort to try and suspend judgement calls on couples who decide to divorce.
I have worked with women in women’s refuge & I firmly believe no one knows “what goes on behind the door” (a quote of a client of mine) of a marriage except the two people living it. Leaving any marriage ‘arranged’ or not, often gives individuals a terrible sense of failure & shame. Never under estimate the power of shame; organised religion never has….. This being so I have tried very hard never to under estimate the level of unhappiness & pain that must proceed any divorce.
I will probably now need to identify myself as a evil feminist (actually equalist), who has been married 26 years; go figure……Mutual respect goes a long way I suppose.
May 1st, 2007 at 2:32 pm
mutual respect goes a very long way. out of all the marriages I know, the happiest ones seem to be where the woman identifies at least somewhat as an “evil feminist”
me included
again it’s this obession with how things look rather than the truth of the matter. Classic example - I work with a woman who has been married three times. Her fist husband cheated on her twice, and she still would have stuck with it, but he left her for the other woman, the second husband was horrible and ended the marriage and now the third is working very well. (should add this lovely lady is not a christian, but a dear friend) She was known to one of church’s pastors who said to me, “she’s had more men than hot dinners”. Actually I thought three partners over the course of 50 years wasn;t actually very many at all, it’s just her failures have been visible. and if it hadn’t been for her husband dumping her she would have still been in the first marriage! You are right dasiy, no one knows what goes on behind closed doors excpet the people involved.
divorce is such a public thing that’s it’s easy to poke fingers and make judgements, much easier to “hide” appaulling behaviour under the cover of a marriage to make it look like we’v got it all together.
May 1st, 2007 at 2:36 pm
Daisy and Emma…I thought I could call myself an “evil feminist”
until I met my husband. Then I realised I had a LOT to learn about my own gender stereotyping and real equality!! You should hear him get started on definitions of what’s romantic. 
Emma…your pastor didn’t REALLY use that phrase, did they? If they did…sheesh, deconstruct THAT!
May 1st, 2007 at 2:42 pm
yes I know, shocking hey.
now I have two sons I find that has played havoc with my stereotyping too
May 1st, 2007 at 4:16 pm
some really good conversation here, I would really be inspired, blessed and educated if you weren’t a bunch of women.
Yes bec I was kidding, everyone knows everything wrong in the world is mans fault.
Just kidding again,
I am feeling a bit cheeky today
rev
May 1st, 2007 at 4:26 pm
I thought you were…and then I thought “whoops…maybe he wasn’t, and I’ve just ’said’ something insulting…”
What do you reckon about all this stuff Rev?
May 1st, 2007 at 7:57 pm
At my old youth group everyone was pretty much told not to date at all, that God would speak about “the Right One” pretty much in a booming voice, and we shouldn’t get involved with anyone until we had this revelation.
Where on earth do people get this stuff from? Given Paul’s advice to widows that they can marry anyone they like provided they’re “in the Lord” (ie not a single mention of praying for God’s revelation of the right one)… how did this idea arise?
I just nodded along for a while… which is why I’m very sympathetic to clueless young people who believe what their pastors tell them…. I don’t see why a young person would automatically be expected to know better.
May 1st, 2007 at 8:15 pm
Janet - how true - the result of this type of teaching meant that a lot of people I knew never dated at all - you were lucky with if got a date once every year if that - or maybe I was just unpopular (smile)
OK I am now single and available . No reasonable offers will be refused
May 1st, 2007 at 8:24 pm
…so smithus, you dated but you didn’t marry after the date?? one of my biggest gripes about the Christian scene is that there’s so much pressure to “know” whether you’ll marry someone BEFORE you go on a date!
May 1st, 2007 at 8:33 pm
I think “the one” teaching is really off. I also think we put too much expectations on marriage. But when I do premarital counseling I tell people that more important than pre, is post marital counseling. We need to work on our relationships, and support each other. I think if two people are willing they can make it work regardless, but if only one is, well…
It is just too hard, that is when the believers get to really learn what sacrifice.
rev
May 1st, 2007 at 8:34 pm
Actually aren’t you supposed to marry just on sight - you spot the person across the congregation - get the world of knowledge - well actually its always the man that gets the word of knowledge and then you get married and go on a date - and hopefully things will work out .
The other bugbear was single women in leadership - it was expected they would sacrifice their entire personal life until the right person came along
May 1st, 2007 at 8:47 pm
My sympathies I became a christian after I was married- quite a blessing if what you have all said is true….good grief pressure much!!
I think one of the problems is that the ridiculous thinking as outlined above by a variety of bloggers is still very much in ‘vogue’. It has just gone underground somewhat, not so openly preached…and it does a lot of harm. Not only to sincere young people who believe what they are told and follow the ‘formula’ to find ‘the one’- and after a few years of marriage can be bitterly disappointed that the ‘fairytale’ wasn’t happily ever after. It also effects a lot of young people who think it all sounds a bit dodgey and far fetched from the beginning can contribute to some young people thinking “this christian lark is just not for me”
This is a pity as Jesus really does want the best for humankind- He is just represented in really harmful and downright abusive ways at times.
May 1st, 2007 at 8:47 pm
^
…although it also makes me angry, and sad. I’ve seen people fall apart at the seams because the person they were CONVINCED they were going to marry (God had told them) got married to someone else. I’ve also seen the “God told me” thing used in incredibly manipulative ways.
May 1st, 2007 at 8:52 pm
sorry daisy…that LOL was for smithus’ post!
I couldn’t agree with your post more, Daisy.
What’s with us all agreeing? This thread needs some CONTROVERSY, dammit!!
May 1st, 2007 at 8:57 pm
I have too Bec.
“God told me” is one of my pet bugbears, right up there with “awesome”. The main reason being is that phrase- “God told me” about any subject is the effective end of any arguement or debate. “God told me” = I am therefore unable to be wrong on this subject or comtemplate that “I told myself”.
I have also seen young people heart broken when ‘the one’ they were CONVINCED they were going to marry, married or even dated someone else. Or be incredibly condemning to ‘the one’ they were CONVINCED they were going to marry when ‘the ones’ marriage or dating relationship does not work out.
“God told me”, makes people cruel mostly.
May 1st, 2007 at 9:05 pm
“I’m saying that the right man for you might be out there right now and if you don’t grab him, someone else will, and you’ll have to spend the rest of your life knowing that someone else is married to your husband.”
When Harry met Sally . If Harry had the word of knowledge all this could have been avoided
May 1st, 2007 at 9:09 pm
yes pressure much is right. at 16 I was told I shouldn’t go on a date unless I was planning to marry said boy who was planning to take me to the movies(!)
as it turns out I did marry said boy but wow, what a lot of stress for a 16-year-old. I was so scared I wasn’t going to make the right decision…funnily enough a young friend who goes to a CCC turned up on my doorstep a few months ago beside herself because she had “feelings” for a guy and was so worried they might be “from the devil” as her pastors had warned her they might be, or that maybe they were from God and she was supposed to be with this guy. She’s 17!!!!!! I said, I think the reason you have feelings for this guy is because you’re 17 and he’s cute!!!!! honestly, don’t they want young people to enjoy just being young anymore? all the fun and wonder of discovering who we are and where we’re going is robbed because of fear.
A wise woman told me the will of God is like a beautiful garden, not a pathway…we are given buondaires but in the garden there are lots of things to enjoy. God doesn;t stand there going, “play with this toy first, right now pick that flower, ot go over to that tree”.
May 1st, 2007 at 9:19 pm
Ok how about some controversy.
Do you think that is possible that some demoninations make virginity an idol- particularly in women- back to the Madonna/whore notion.
I am not saying that being a ‘pure’ bride is not beautiful, it is.
However, much of what goes on seems to be about- if you are going to date this boy-you better be sure he is ‘the one’ or be convinced or at least very open to the possibility, you are going to marry - just in case hormones get the better of you two, so you can then get married and play happy families- even if you are not…
May 1st, 2007 at 9:27 pm
yeah I’ve thought about this a bit lately as two of my brother-in-laws did the “right” thing like my husband and I did and got married etc before anything untoward happened, but my youngest brother in law whom I love as my own brother decided to live with/travel with his girlfriend before marriage. In some ways I feel like they will be better prepared for marriage than the rest of us…I’m not saying I regret my decision to wait but to be honest I think I thought more about sex in that 5 years that I wasn;t having it than I will ever for the rest of my life.
May 1st, 2007 at 9:33 pm
Daisy - I hadn’t thought of it like that, but you’re probably not far off.
Emma - I sense a sadness in your posts that I share. I just find it so incredibly sad that Christian culture is one full of boundaries rather than the joy and freedom that Christ promises us. Dating should be FUN! Sure, you can get a broken heart - but there’s also all the excitement and hope that comes with meeting someone new, and exploring the new things they open up…there’s so many things I would never have discovered if it hadn’t been for the relationships I’ve been in…and by “discoveries” I mean things the Church would be perfectly happy with.
We haven’t even got started on the Christian/non-Christian thing yet…I have several friends who copped it BIG TIME when they started dating non-Christians…and one of them was kicked out of the music team when they announced their engagement to a non-Christian. In some cases the non-Christian partners have ultimately become interested in Christianity - now THAT makes me believe in an interventionist God!!
May 1st, 2007 at 9:36 pm
Yep I think churches place way too much emphasis on virginity - . And what happens to people who don’t get married in the right time frame - being a 30 year old virgin isn’t a realistic option for most people
May 1st, 2007 at 9:38 pm
oh yes dating a non-Christian is almost an unforgiveable sin isn’t it?
I do share that sadness in the sense of feeling the church really lets its young people down in this area. We must do better.
hope it doesn’t come across as though I’m sad with said boy though
May 1st, 2007 at 9:41 pm
smithus…it’s like people who admit to being glad they became Christians after they’d done all their “fun” stuff first…and yet they’re the first to tell everyone else what they shouldn’t be doing!
May 1st, 2007 at 9:42 pm
I was sure I was going to marry a girl, we had been dating for a year, I bought a ring, she helped pick it out so she was planning on saying yes. A lady in the church had a vision, but I wasn’t allowed to hear it, only the girl. She broke up with me because of the vision. A year later she married the prophetess’ son. Which left me a bit angry.
However, I am glad I did not marry that girl. She was beautiful, and was a beautiful Christian, but she was not the kind of woman that could have lived the wild path my wife and I have lived. There would have been no homeless teenagers living in our house, no town drunks eating dinner with us. I am still bitter, but not about what happened, just how it happened.
rev
May 1st, 2007 at 9:42 pm
No - doesn’t come across that you’re sad with said boy!!
And again on the sex thing…I think the church builds it up as some sort of “holy grail”, this thing to attain. Again, there’s very little difference between “secular” society and “Christian” culture - it’s just that in Christian culture you’re supposed to want it but you can’t have it until you’ve fulfilled certain criteria. I’ve lost count of the number of female friends who’ve been terribly disappointed after their wedding night, and have wondered whether there was something wrong with them…it’s built up to the point that it’s almost inevitable people will be let down!!
May 1st, 2007 at 9:49 pm
Rev…that’s just appalling!! It sounds like something straight out of Days of our Lives!!
Sounds like you not only scored a wonderful partner, but also avoided having the Mother in Law from Hell…
May 1st, 2007 at 9:50 pm
Whoops, I meant that SHE got the Mother in Law form hell!
May 1st, 2007 at 9:52 pm
let’s be frank - if you’ve both done the “right thing” it’s unlikely your wedding night is going to be a Mills and Boon fantasy. Rev is right about having realistic expectations, in this as well as everything else. I think a lot of the problem stems from this lie pastors tell people to stop them having sex, that if you wait you’ll have this amazing sex life after you’re married but if you stuff it up then that’ll haunt you forever. For women who wait, then, if it’s not this great experience right off they feel ripped off, and angry that they did the right thing but it doesn’t seem to have fulfilled them, while their non-Christians friends seem to be having all this great sex.
again I think we’re so scared of people doing the “wrong thing” that we tell them mistruths.
May 1st, 2007 at 9:52 pm
I still wonder what that vision was!!!
Oh well I got the most awesome wife in the world, and a great story to tell, so I am not complaining.
If Raquel would just do the dishes in lingerie every night like I tell her to!
rev
May 1st, 2007 at 9:56 pm
Look, most peoples wedding night might be a big let down, but what are the choices? Well we aren’t very good at this, and its ackward, and a bit weird that now we are allowed to, but yesterday we weren’t. And the other choice, oh, well yeah we have done this a hundred times before, but I guess we might as well.
Our wedding night was really special. Neither of us were virgins, but we hadn’t since we became Christians, and hadn’t with each other. It had been four years for me. It was not some porno worthy performance, but very special, made me wish I had not done it before.
rev