NT for Lent 17 - James 4
And with this final episode on a Sunday we are back on track for our Lent readings as of tomorrow. Today’s return to the good books is brought to you by James 4.
Submit Yourselves to God
1What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? 2You want something but don’t get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
4You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely? 6But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:
“God opposes the proud
but gives grace to the humble.”7Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
11Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?
Boasting About Tomorrow
13Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.” 14Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. 15Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.” 16As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil. 17Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.
March 11th, 2007 at 11:52 am
When I read this passage at the beginning of James 4 I really question my motives in participating in some of the threads in this blog. This is a genuine question…. Should we just continue in our churches keep our heads down, avoid quarrels and fights if when we examine ourselves we find that we are battling desires within us - ie wanting our ideas to be preferred? As I said a genuine question… an area in which I struggle… sometimes I don’t know what is worse putting one’s questioning out in the open and causing quarrels or letting it fester under the surface….or taking the other option which is what I have done and not gone to church since Christmas. Any ideas?….Anybody?
March 11th, 2007 at 2:54 pm
Grace Required,
I all depends upon what you are fighting over. Even this scripture needs to be balanced with times when St Paul debated and fought “even so I opposed Pter to his face” when dealing with those who wanted to bring law into the church.
It’s not worth fighting over minor points of doctrine, (unless there are those who want to enforce them as a major doctrinal point such as Baptism by immersion only, thithing as necessary for church membership etc) or things such as the Brand of coffee in the Church caffeteria - but when it comes to the Gospel being compromised, then we need to have people with the steel, the understanding and the articulation to speak out - just as St Paul did, just as Martin Luther did, just as many who have opposed dodgy doctrine and oppression and injustice in the Church over the centuries.
March 12th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
I gaven up hillsongs for lent.
March 12th, 2007 at 1:42 pm
“2You want something but don’t get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.”
LF is right, GR - it’s about motives etc. The people being written to appear to have been pushing their own barrows because of preference, rather than looking to seek after what God intended for their fellowship.
V3 seems to be key, here.
When my kids ‘quarrel’, they each take a view point and fight until either someone gets hurt, or gets offended and spends time sulking.
‘Quarrelling’ is a fairly childish way to get what you want.
Discussion, debate, and even arguing are intended (?) to be about presenting an idea, but being open to the ideas of others (being other-aware, if not other-focused)
Dominic Steele describes sin as ‘autonomy’ - doing it your own way.
My gut tells me that ‘autonomy’ is the reason we quarrel. The desire for intimate community is why we would argue (to me there’s a difference - don’t know if it helps)
March 12th, 2007 at 3:24 pm
i hava rodd, ok
March 12th, 2007 at 3:33 pm
Ok.
…are you bragging, or is it show&tell at school today?
“Thankyou for showing us your rodd… does anybody else in class have a rodd they would like to show us?”
Interesting spelling, dude!
Oh - i’d still be interested in seeing you unpack the discouse you began to espouse in other threads on the scientifically proven relationship between homosexuality and poofterism… I really think you might have been on to something significant there, and would love for you to elaborate, especially if you are able to use words that have more than one sylable…
(gawd)
March 12th, 2007 at 3:37 pm
bone
March 12th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
My daughter is home sick from school today, so I thought I’d have a squiz at SP and catch up with the gang and say hi. It must be really good weather everywhere, because all we seem to have is this neanderthal who I think is either looking for a porn site, or is having a medical emergency and doesn’t know how to call an ambulance for assistance…
I still think that James 4 passage is a beauty.
“TELL ME WHY!” (’I don’t like Mondays’)
March 12th, 2007 at 3:49 pm
bonetown rats
March 12th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
Oh - you’re older than 17?
Who’d a thunk it?
March 12th, 2007 at 4:14 pm
“bonetown rats”….
heehee…. sorry, I know I shouldn’t laugh but I can just see Beavis and Butthead sniggering away…. “dude, he said “bone”.
at least he’s consistant.
March 12th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
Is ‘bonetown’ 1 poly-sylabic word, or 2 monosylabic words?
Just wondering when his elaboration will start…
(you’re right Dido - you shouldn’t laugh, but it was funny!)
March 12th, 2007 at 6:18 pm
You post a passage of Scripture and then the true fruit of your site comes out as all the deviants (such as I Have A Bone above) come out and post and you have the nerve to attack Hillsong. You are pure poison and one day you will stand before God and give an account, you white-washed tombs, you religious hypocrites. You’re worse than the Anti-Christs out there who at least are honest enough to admit that they hate Christ. You pose as Christians to lead astray those who would be saved. Don’t be deceived. God is not mocked and you can be sure that you will get your reward if you don’t repent. Now laugh and mock all you like but don’t say you weren’t warned.
March 12th, 2007 at 7:36 pm
Thanks for the warning Dee.
March 12th, 2007 at 9:15 pm
Dee,
I resigned my own membership with a Church closely aligned to Hillsong after fair questions would not be answered by the Senior Pastor.
These family owned “Churches”
1) Claim “the books are open” – yet financials are not provided upon request.
2) Manipulatively promote the teaching on ‘tithing’ which does not stand up to accepted principles of biblical interpretation.
3) Secretively facilitate a ‘networked speaking circuit’ where these Senior Pastors pay each other large sums of money to speak at each others Churches and Conferences into tax-free “ministry” entities that they control.
4) Are autocratically controlled by the Senior Pastor and his appointed Board ― allowing these Churches to become ‘inherited family owned businesses’.
5) Cover up contradictions such as Brian Houston’s ‘on the record’ (‘Lords Profits’ SMH 2003) statement that “he makes money as a property developer” and later “(He) has never been a property developer” (Letter to Editor, BRW 2005).
And you label US as poison. Surely Dee, you would have lablelled John the Baptist as poison when he confronted the Pahisees and called them ‘A Brood of vipers’ or Jesus when he overturned the tables of those profiting in the temple …?
With all due respect Dee, it is obvious as to why people fail to take Christians of the Hillsong/Benny Hinn/Riverview/Peter Popoff/Marjoe Gortner variety at all seriously.
March 12th, 2007 at 9:27 pm
I haven’t been called a whitewashed tomb since kindergarten. Right now I’m thinking of a bunch of really theologically sound debates to contrast your statements, Dee, but Lionfish already beat me to it, and frankly, I can’t be stuffed.
If I told you that I have sex with old men for money, how would you treat me?
(I think signposters know what I’m getting at with that question… lets see if we can all play along).
March 13th, 2007 at 11:26 am
Who called you a WWT at kindy, and what did you do to deserve that?
Did you get sent to the naughty chair?
Man, my kindy was a PICNIC compared to yours…
March 13th, 2007 at 8:07 pm
Here are some quotes above:
or taking the other option which is what I have done and not gone to church since Christmas. Any ideas?….Anybody?
Lazy, apathetic Christianity! We are commanded not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. If you were a Chinese Christian, you would be glad of the opportunity of getting together with other Christians.
i hava rodd, ok
and then the responses:
…are you bragging, or is it show&tell at school today?
“Thankyou for showing us your rodd… does anybody else in class have a rodd they would like to show us?”
(gawd) which means what? a variation on the blasphemous use of the word “God”?
this neanderthal who I think is either looking for a porn site, or is having a medical emergency and doesn’t know how to call an ambulance for assistance…
i like your “humour”…do you find this person’s comments funny?
looks like you’re not alone. your co-posters seemed to find it as funny as you did:
heehee…. sorry, I know I shouldn’t laugh but I can just see Beavis and Butthead sniggering away…. “dude, he said “bone”.
(you’re right Dido - you shouldn’t laugh, but it was funny!)
yeah, i can just see Jesus laughing His head off at sexual remarks and at people caught up in sin and hating the church…i notice you used the same weapon on me as you used on him…and i’m familiar with the use of humour on the blogosphere
i checked out lots of other posts on your site and particularly those on Hillsong…i don’t care what you think you found on a leadership level or what you’ve cooked up about corruption or whatever…i have been around the pentecostal movement all my life and i can tell you something right now, you’d never find the kind of attitudes you find on your disgusting site…you need to wake up to yourselves if there’s any conscience there at all…i suspect that at a leadership level and maybe all the way down, most of you are more interested in tearing down the Body of Christ than in doing anything constructive for the Kingdom of God
and if you were called a whitewashed tomb in kindergarten, you must have corrupted quite young…maybe you need to seek counselling about your early childhood traumas
March 13th, 2007 at 8:44 pm
Dee,
I want to commend you for your convictions. And that is not said with any sarcasm. Your desire to see righteousness in the church is admirable. And yes I may seem lazy and apathetic to you. You might even like to label me as offended and not moving in the strength of Christ. Yet I like many others here are full of questions and indeed hope. With a desire for a deeper relationship with Jesus and all that despite being hurt by a church which often acts more like a modern faceless coporation than a loving, caring people belonging to God.
So seek righteousness, look to what is prasiseworthy and remember that above all else is love ” because love covers over a multitude of sins” 1 Peter 4:8
March 13th, 2007 at 8:55 pm
Perfect Grace
or do I mean
Perfect, Grace
March 13th, 2007 at 9:11 pm
Dee,
you are making a common mistake in you assumptions about signposts. Firstly, there is no ‘body’ of signposts per se (although there has been some suggestion that we are becoming a congregation of sorts).
I for example am in the Northern territory, Grace is not too far away from you, Lance is in west oz and so on. Most of us who post here have never met in the real world (although there are those occasions when I recognise people who I know or find out we have friends in common).
While I can see the offense which could be caused by the questioning of Hills modus operandi, for the most part I don’t see this as being anti the church (let alone the body of Christ) because I see that these questions are being asked by people who themselves love God but who have concerns be they theological differences or questions of governance. These are questions which it should be easy to silence, if someone asks what is done with the tithes taken into the storehouse how hard is it to show them?
Perhaps questions of theology are less easy to settle, but then denominational differences have been around since about half an hour after the crucification yet the church has managed to survive.
It is quite disingenuous to quote from bone or assume he represents the status quo, because he’s a one off moron who appeared and disappeared. That’s the sort of thing you get on any online group.
And dee, you are far from being the only pro hills voice on the board. It’d be great if you hung around and presented some ‘facts’ to back up your point of view, because as someone fairly neutral myself, some of the accusations made about how hills operates as an organisation and how the finances are managed can seem damning and no one is making any legitimate attempts to present the opposite view.
As for white washed tombs, I don’t think so. For the most part those of us who post here are the publicans and tax collectors who know that Jesus is special because he actually talks to us while the religious establishment won’t.
But that’s just my interpretation.
March 13th, 2007 at 9:54 pm
Dee - re comment #18 you label people as hypocrits and ‘lesser’ Christians, and you defend Hillsong …?
Have you got your own copy of “Kingdom Women Love Sex” by Bobbie Houston ?
Or did you read Bobbie Houstons joke (play on words) about “female orgasms” in last Wednesday’s Bulletin article “Book of Revelations”…?
That is a really dirty, unchristian church that you defend.
March 14th, 2007 at 2:18 am
Dee,
You will find much on this site with which you disagree. I can’t change that. You seem quite greived about this. I can respect your choice to not just ignore it, but try and address it in your own words.
I found it interesting that you started using the word “you” to describe those responsible for the things you saw here and didn’t like:
“YOU post a passage of Scripture and then the true fruit of YOUR site comes out … YOU have the nerve to attack Hillsong … YOU are pure poison … YOU religious hypocrites. YOU’re worse than the Anti-Christs … laugh and mock all YOU like but don’t say YOU weren’t warned.”
I am intrigued. Can you please tell me more about this? I wonder when you say “YOU” is it one person, two people or a big group of people; and if so which people. Maybe the people called “you” changes sometimes - just an idea. Maybe the “YOU” includes me - in which case do you have a responsability to clarify this and tell me?
March 14th, 2007 at 2:38 am
Or if you don’t want to go over what you have said to explain it to me (since you are under no obligation from me to do so) why not just set the example you want to see, get this thread back on track and share the challenges and encouragements for you from your reflections on James 4?
March 14th, 2007 at 8:25 pm
“look to what is prasiseworthy…”
good call.
I guess Lionfish is stuffed then, because he only looks for what is (allegedly) dodgy.
“bout “female orgasms” in last Wednesday’s Bulletin article “Book of Revelations”…?
That is a really dirty, unchristian church that you defend.”
Sorry… what is dirty about a female orgasm?
March 14th, 2007 at 10:53 pm
Dido - just being facetious.
March 14th, 2007 at 10:59 pm
One for you in response, Dido my dear …
Ephesians 5:11 (New International Version)
11Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
As Hillsong’s self appointed defender and ambassador to this site are you up to answering some questions ?
March 15th, 2007 at 8:08 am
Sorry, where did I say I was “Hillsong’s self appointed defender and ambassador to this site”?
March 15th, 2007 at 10:30 am
btw…LF, is your name Colin?
March 15th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
No. Its Lionfish.