Comments on: why do we need to push for mission? http://www.signposts.org.au/2007/03/17/why-do-we-need-to-push-for-mission/ musings from those on the journey Fri, 7 Nov 2008 05:01:09 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: Janet http://www.signposts.org.au/2007/03/17/why-do-we-need-to-push-for-mission/#comment-159687 Janet Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:50:43 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2007/03/17/why-do-we-need-to-push-for-mission/#comment-159687 It’s truly amazing, that God, in all His wisdom and grace, uses people like me, and works through them to further His Kingdom. I know if I was God I probably wouldn’t, I guess thats why I’m not, amongst plenty of other reasons. It’s truly amazing, that God, in all His wisdom and grace, uses people like me, and works through them to further His Kingdom. I know if I was God I probably wouldn’t, I guess thats why I’m not, amongst plenty of other reasons.

]]> By: adsy http://www.signposts.org.au/2007/03/17/why-do-we-need-to-push-for-mission/#comment-159622 adsy Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:49:00 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2007/03/17/why-do-we-need-to-push-for-mission/#comment-159622 It just about is heresy, I know. It's one of my great frustrations, that God, in all His wisdom and grace, uses churches like hs, and works through them to further His Kingdom. I know if I was God I probably wouldn't, I guess thats why i'm not, amongst plenty of other reasons. Mn, you are so right, it is very comforting and somewhat sobering to know that, in the end, He only remembers the good stuff, and the rest turns to ash. Thanks for reminding me that He truely is an awesome God! It just about is heresy, I know. It’s one of my great frustrations, that God, in all His wisdom and grace, uses churches like hs, and works through them to further His Kingdom. I know if I was God I probably wouldn’t, I guess thats why i’m not, amongst plenty of other reasons.

Mn, you are so right, it is very comforting and somewhat sobering to know that, in the end, He only remembers the good stuff, and the rest turns to ash.

Thanks for reminding me that He truely is an awesome God!

]]> By: mn http://www.signposts.org.au/2007/03/17/why-do-we-need-to-push-for-mission/#comment-159617 mn Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:39:51 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2007/03/17/why-do-we-need-to-push-for-mission/#comment-159617 Reference previous comments about struggling with living out of duty, coulda, woulda, shoulda, and even more should, and living out of Christ moment by moment and "doing" mission in that way. Adsy and Wayne et al you are right - God uses whatever we do for his own purposes anyway, but isn't it also good for those of that know him that He only remembers the good stuff and not the chaff come judgement day. Cheers MN Reference previous comments about struggling with living out of duty, coulda, woulda, shoulda, and even more should, and living out of Christ moment by moment and “doing” mission in that way. Adsy and Wayne et al you are right - God uses whatever we do for his own purposes anyway, but isn’t it also good for those of that know him that He only remembers the good stuff and not the chaff come judgement day.

Cheers

MN

]]> By: mn http://www.signposts.org.au/2007/03/17/why-do-we-need-to-push-for-mission/#comment-159616 mn Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:31:13 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2007/03/17/why-do-we-need-to-push-for-mission/#comment-159616 Wayne and Adsy that just about sounds like heresy for Signposters....but I agree with you anyway. Going with the thrust of the conversation try these verses on for size from Isaiah 50:10-11 : Who among you fears the LORD and obeys the word of his servant? Let him who walks in the dark, who has no light, trust in the name of the LORD and rely on his God. But now, all you who light fires and provide yourselves with flaming torches, go, walk in the light of your fires and of the torches you have set ablaze. This is what you shall receive from my hand: You will lie down in torment. These verses are a common biblical theme and resonate strongly in my household as something to aspire to and almost antithetically "strive for". There is a warning and wisdom here from God that I struggle with on a daily basis that impacts on everything including how to reflecting Jesus. I'll leave it at that - this is a deeeeeeeep topic. Cheers MN Wayne and Adsy

that just about sounds like heresy for Signposters….but I agree with you anyway.

Going with the thrust of the conversation try these verses on for size from Isaiah 50:10-11 :

Who among you fears the LORD and obeys the word of his servant? Let him who walks in the dark, who has no light, trust in the name of the LORD and rely on his God.

But now, all you who light fires and provide yourselves with flaming torches, go, walk in the light of your fires and of the torches you have set ablaze. This is what you shall receive from my hand: You will lie down in torment.

These verses are a common biblical theme and resonate strongly in my household as something to aspire to and almost antithetically “strive for”.

There is a warning and wisdom here from God that I struggle with on a daily basis that impacts on everything including how to reflecting Jesus. I’ll leave it at that - this is a deeeeeeeep topic.

Cheers

MN

]]> By: wayne http://www.signposts.org.au/2007/03/17/why-do-we-need-to-push-for-mission/#comment-159612 wayne Tue, 27 Mar 2007 07:02:18 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2007/03/17/why-do-we-need-to-push-for-mission/#comment-159612 Thanks adsy. He's a big God! I don't think even Hillsong is beyond His capacity to bring about some good - despite themselves.... Thanks adsy.

He’s a big God! I don’t think even Hillsong is beyond His capacity to bring about some good - despite themselves….

]]> By: adsy http://www.signposts.org.au/2007/03/17/why-do-we-need-to-push-for-mission/#comment-159609 adsy Tue, 27 Mar 2007 06:19:14 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2007/03/17/why-do-we-need-to-push-for-mission/#comment-159609 I can see where you are coming from also Wayne, it isn't hard to get drawn back into a performance m.o. I guess the reason for this is that, for us who were brought up in the church, this is what they tell us that ministry is, 'doing' stuff. We have to be reprogramed into seeing that mission or ministry should come out of who we are, and not be something that we feel we should be doing. I guess thats why God is God. Even when our motives may not be so pure, he still uses us with all our faults. And just quietly, (because I may get crucified for saying this on this site), He even uses mainstream churches with all of thier faults, yes even hs. I can see where you are coming from also Wayne, it isn’t hard to get drawn back into a performance m.o. I guess the reason for this is that, for us who were brought up in the church, this is what they tell us that ministry is, ‘doing’ stuff. We have to be reprogramed into seeing that mission or ministry should come out of who we are, and not be something that we feel we should be doing.
I guess thats why God is God. Even when our motives may not be so pure, he still uses us with all our faults. And just quietly, (because I may get crucified for saying this on this site), He even uses mainstream churches with all of thier faults, yes even hs.

]]> By: wayne http://www.signposts.org.au/2007/03/17/why-do-we-need-to-push-for-mission/#comment-159596 wayne Tue, 27 Mar 2007 02:41:02 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2007/03/17/why-do-we-need-to-push-for-mission/#comment-159596 I've read Robert Clinton's book, and it is a good read. Perhaps you are right, and the thoughts that I have in this thread are a reflection of the stage in my journey. But I still have a sneaking suspicion that there is a little more to it than that in regards to the ambition for mission that we create for ourselves, and the unhealthiness of this.... I’ve read Robert Clinton’s book, and it is a good read. Perhaps you are right, and the thoughts that I have in this thread are a reflection of the stage in my journey. But I still have a sneaking suspicion that there is a little more to it than that in regards to the ambition for mission that we create for ourselves, and the unhealthiness of this….

]]> By: Janet http://www.signposts.org.au/2007/03/17/why-do-we-need-to-push-for-mission/#comment-159592 Janet Tue, 27 Mar 2007 01:22:24 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2007/03/17/why-do-we-need-to-push-for-mission/#comment-159592 I don't think God treats us all the same... Wayne has "done" a lot of mission, to the point it became somewhat "carnal" (to use the old fashioned, perhaps hopelessly quaint expression). If you've never "done" any mission, God might be calling you to get off your derriere. Robert Clinton's book on the "Making of a Leader" might be helpful reading for those into obscure books... sometimes in the early part of our lives we do a lot of "doing"... in the middle part of our lives God gives us a shake up and teaches us to "be"... and later still, our doing flows naturally out of our being. Not even convinced this is a journey that can be rushed.... I don’t think God treats us all the same… Wayne has “done” a lot of mission, to the point it became somewhat “carnal” (to use the old fashioned, perhaps hopelessly quaint expression). If you’ve never “done” any mission, God might be calling you to get off your derriere.

Robert Clinton’s book on the “Making of a Leader” might be helpful reading for those into obscure books… sometimes in the early part of our lives we do a lot of “doing”… in the middle part of our lives God gives us a shake up and teaches us to “be”… and later still, our doing flows naturally out of our being. Not even convinced this is a journey that can be rushed….

]]> By: wayne http://www.signposts.org.au/2007/03/17/why-do-we-need-to-push-for-mission/#comment-159590 wayne Mon, 26 Mar 2007 22:58:01 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2007/03/17/why-do-we-need-to-push-for-mission/#comment-159590 Janet - I agree. I actually meant what you said in terms of transformation is a work of the Spirit, not something we do or strive for. Sometimes my fingers work faster than my brain.... Adsy, I can totally see what you and Backyard are talking about. There's not much I can say other than share my journey. I have been in that place where I had an ambition for mission, and I would say it wasn't in an unhealthy or particular driven way. However, I have found that even with what one would consider a relatively healthy ambition for mission, it still led me down a path of not being about to totally love people as I feel I am now in a better place to do. It is so subtle and easy to get stuck in a performance mode of operation, and we don't even know we are in it. Mission then comes partly from our egos and gets in the way of what God really wants to do through us. I don't think I can ever explain my journey and the difference I now feel adequately in words. All I can say is that I feel free - and free to now love, and the difference is worlds apart....... Janet - I agree. I actually meant what you said in terms of transformation is a work of the Spirit, not something we do or strive for. Sometimes my fingers work faster than my brain….

Adsy, I can totally see what you and Backyard are talking about. There’s not much I can say other than share my journey. I have been in that place where I had an ambition for mission, and I would say it wasn’t in an unhealthy or particular driven way. However, I have found that even with what one would consider a relatively healthy ambition for mission, it still led me down a path of not being about to totally love people as I feel I am now in a better place to do.

It is so subtle and easy to get stuck in a performance mode of operation, and we don’t even know we are in it. Mission then comes partly from our egos and gets in the way of what God really wants to do through us.

I don’t think I can ever explain my journey and the difference I now feel adequately in words. All I can say is that I feel free - and free to now love, and the difference is worlds apart…….

]]> By: adsy http://www.signposts.org.au/2007/03/17/why-do-we-need-to-push-for-mission/#comment-159578 adsy Mon, 26 Mar 2007 12:44:37 +0000 http://www.signposts.org.au/2007/03/17/why-do-we-need-to-push-for-mission/#comment-159578 This is an interesting dialog. Interesting because, yes mission 'should' come out of who we are, not out of a feeling that we should be doing it. I would have to agree with Backyard in the first comment though, "I do think we ‘push’ for it to some degree, but I imagine that is because our natural default is selfishness and laziness. If we look at how we change ‘who we are’ I often feel it is by choosing to live differently. By doing what we know is right and good we reshape our own identity even if we find it difficult." If we want to change any behavour pattern, we have to make conscience decisions to stop doing that thing or do something different. After time we dont have to decide to do something different, we just do it, because it is who we are. I would say that, in the beginning, we have to 'push' to do mission because it is not who we naturally are. After time though, if we are disciplined, and by the grace of God, it will become who we are and something that we just do. It would be interestng to ask leaders of the missional church how they started. Whether mission came out of who they were or whether they did mission because they felt they 'should' and then became who they are. This is an interesting dialog. Interesting because, yes mission ’should’ come out of who we are, not out of a feeling that we should be doing it. I would have to agree with Backyard in the first comment though,

“I do think we ‘push’ for it to some degree, but I imagine that is because our natural default is selfishness and laziness.
If we look at how we change ‘who we are’ I often feel it is by choosing to live differently. By doing what we know is right and good we reshape our own identity even if we find it difficult.”

If we want to change any behavour pattern, we have to make conscience decisions to stop doing that thing or do something different. After time we dont have to decide to do something different, we just do it, because it is who we are.
I would say that, in the beginning, we have to ‘push’ to do mission because it is not who we naturally are. After time though, if we are disciplined, and by the grace of God, it will become who we are and something that we just do.
It would be interestng to ask leaders of the missional church how they started. Whether mission came out of who they were or whether they did mission because they felt they ’should’ and then became who they are.

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