Brian Mclaren at DS
Continuing the notes from Dangerous Stories.
Brian Mclaren #1
The world is formed by stories. Some stories have the power to heal and transform, while others can cause harm.
Think of our society system as having 3 gears – prosperity (what we think will make us successful), security (what we think will make us safe) and equality (what will ensure others are looked after). At the centre is a ‘framing story’ that drives the system. It is not political ideology but when it all boils down to the ‘framing story’ that drives us. There are just a handful of framing stories.
Empire/Domination
Victim
Shame and blame / Purity
Prosperity
Isolation
1. The empire story (domination) is peace and security through domination. In the beginning, little tribes and nations were always fighting with each other. Usually one tribe gets power over the others. Eventually one of them says “Submit to us, then I will make sure you will have peace. If you give me your power, I will make sure you are looked after.” This is a very common script throughout history. My nation is trying to live through a domination script. If everyone does what we think, then everything will be all right and the world would be a better place. You are either with us or against us. There is a price to freedom and it is usually always involves violence. We are like the Borg from “Star Trek”: ‘resistance is futile you will be assimilated.’ Throughout history we see domination stories played out. By the Babylonians, Summarians, Romans, etc. In the biblical back-story, the Jews didn’t want to be part of the domination stories of others.
2. The victim story is that peace and security will come through violent overthrow of the people oppressing us. It is the revolution narrative (or counter narrative). The Al Queda has this story line. Many of the Jews believed and lived in this framing story. Like the domination narrative, violence is the answer.
3. The shame-blame story see there are lots of things wrong presently and blames the problems on another group. Peace and security through scapegoating and excluding the impure. It is the purity narrative. The germans did this. The tutsies in rwanda. Some of the religious leaders in US blamed sept 11 on the impure people in the nation.
4. The Prosperity story drives a lot of people. Peace and security through participating in a healthy economy. Many people have a dual narrative in this system: religion and economics. However, at the core, money is what makes the world go around.
5. The Isolation (or elite remnant) story finds peace and security through withdrawing from the corrupting system. Everything’s going down the drain. Many of religious people however think that they’re going to be airlifted out. There is no hope for the people or the world, but that’s ok as the elite (and only the elite) will be rescued and saved. We can see in the world various groups that operate from this framing story. They might form enclave in the cities from the unclean and the unorthoox.
All these narratives were active during Jesus’ days. Depending on their narrative, they understood and interpreted the bible accordingly.
1. Caesar’s empire or the Roman Empire was the domination story. People understood what it meant for the Romans to have power over every aspect of a person’s life. Power and violence brought peace and security. People submitted to Pilate. Caesar was often talked about being the people’s “saviour” or a ‘liberating king’. Messiah was the Jewish word for ’saviour’. ‘Christ’ means ‘liberating king’. Jesus was called Christ, not because that was his name but because he was ‘the liberating king.’ Maybe we should stop calling him Jesus Christ, but just call him ‘Jesus the liberator’ - so we get the sense it was his title and not his surname.
2. Many of the Jews operated from the victim story - never forget what happened in 160BC, we can’t forget our past and how we were mistreated before. We have to fight back. Terrorism might seem like a fairly recent idea to us today, but the Zealots of Jesus’ days practiced terrorism. They carried long curved knives and sneakily attacked (scatari) Romans whenever they could. They disagreed with the oppressors, and felt there was unbridgable gulf between people that could only overcome by violence.
3. The shame-blame storywas passed on by the Pharisees - the prostitutes and the sinners were what were holding back the blessings God has for the Jews. If we got rid of them then the prosperity of the Jewish nation would be restored. Jesus departs from the shame blame exclusion story.
4. The prosperity story can be seen in the sadducees, herodians, the tax collectors, and the stewards who played the game of the roman empire for financial gain. These were all Jews that gained from the Roman occupation. The Romans taxed anybody they conquered. However the poor weren’t always able to pay, as the only thing they owned was land through family inheritance. The rich people came along and said ‘we will pay your taxes, and in return give us your deeds to your land, where you can live but you now work for us.’ The poor saw these guys as taking advantage of them and hated them. We have the story of the rich young ruler a few times in the gospels. How does a young jew get rich under Roman occupation? Generally only through collaborating with the Roman authorities.
5. Then there were the elite remnant. We don’t hear much about them directly in the Bible, but there are a lot of archaeological evidence for them - the Essenes. These people withdrew into the desert and didn’t want to have anything to do with the rest of society. History is already filmed and on the dvd - there is no hope for the story, so we will withdraw and form our own culture, and wait for the final scene to occur.
Jesus’ story, however, was the kingdom of God. An alternative to all these five framing stories. It was about the power of love, forgiveness and grace - and radically different from the narratives of those days.
I hope I am wrong, but I think… the christian religion, the eastern protestant, whatever version… every version… has unwittingly, unintentionally, lost Jesus’ story and we have cut and trimmed Jesus’ story into one of these narratives.
Even those of us who are planting churches - if we don’t understand the stories we live in we will perpetuate a compromised gospel. I don’t think our problem is just style, technique, marketing, organisation, or bad music or bad preaching. I think we have a message with serious problems. Our messages have been distorted and cut and trimed to fit into the dominant story of our culture.
We are discipling people into the wrong story. The christian story in many places has become a dangerous story. It’s dangerous, because it takes the name of Jesus, the label and the brand, and puts it on a defective and discredited product.
Too few people realise how radical the message of the Jesus is. Let’s look at Mark 1: 15. This verse is orientated around the word kingdom. In jesus’ day kingdom was the dominant reality - everyone understood because that is what they lived in. Most of us don’t know what the kingdom of god really means today. If he came today, Jesus probably wouldn’t use the word kingdom as it is not the dominant reality we now live in.
In Jesus’ day, Herod and Caesar’s images were everywhere. When US and their allies went to Iraq for Gulf war 1 - Sadam’s picture was everywhere, to remind people who the ultimate authority was in that country. That was the same with caesar.
To speak of the Kingdom of God then, was the kind of thing that could get you killed at the time. Jesus was not a Christian. He was a jew, born and died a jew. He wasn’t about starting a new religion. He never proclaimed anther religion, he proclaimed another kingdom. That kingdom had a lot to say to his religion and every other kingdom. His story of the ‘kingdom of God’ was at the centre of his framing story. But we don’t get it. We think kingdom of god as heaven. Heaven meaning something after you die. Matthew uses heaven, whereas the others use ‘God,’ why?
How much of our evangelism is centred around: “If you were to die tonight, do you think you are going to heaven?”
Matthew is written to the Jews and they were always careful not to splash the name of God around. Let’s not overuse the name, otherwise we take away the power or impact of his name or him. But Matthew, isn’t talking about heaven as a place after death. If so, we should rewrite the Lord’s prayer - May we come to heaven when we die. May your will be done after we come to heaven.
John uses the phrase ‘Eternal life’ for kingdom of God. Eternal life and kingdom of God (Mark 10) are used interchangable. Is John 17:3 about when we die, eternal life is going to heaven? Nope. It is that you know God. To know is to be in a relationship, one involving living entities. Eternal life is about enjoying God in the present.
A kingdom is an interactive network of relationships with the king and others. When the Bible talks about “Life of the ages”, it is not life in a timeless state. We don’t have time to think about ‘living in a timeless state’ when you are already living in an oppressive state, when you’re reality is being oppressed. Living in an ‘above’ life isn’t about taking you away from the present arrangement you are in, but one that lifts you up ‘above’ it. So you are in, but no longer a part of it. Jesus says “Come. Do not just live as part of this economy- or media-driven culture ruled by George Bush, or Osama Bin Laden, etc. Live a different reality.”
Repent means rethink everything. And believe the good news. The kingdom of God, a new way of living, a new arrangement, a new story is a hand, you don’t have to wait. It’s come near in time and space. In fact, you can reach out and touch it now.
Today everyone agrees someday that…
the poor should be helped
the rich should be generous
racism should end
the environment should be cared for
wars should cease.
But they think it is still a long way off, and a lot of things has to happen before they occur - usually a lot of things done by other people. But Jesus says now is the time.
The good news is that you can start living this new way now. Even before the Romans are gone. Even before everything is right with you.
Our problem isn’t the packaging, it is the vision of Jesus we have.
We are tired of Empire Jesus who dominates through vilence. It is a very popular Jesus in my country. We are getting tired of the victim Jesus - who is planning revenge on his enemies. When we are in power, we often follow the domination jesus. But when we’re the victim, then Jesus is in revenge mode. He’ll be back. He will kill and make sure the baddies get what they deserve… Are we saying that violence is the only way anything is really achieved?
But these are the Jesus’ we have been told that Jesus is like. Rev 19-20 talks about a Jesus who returns with a sword to fight back. It’s a little detail, but Jesus’ sword, where does it come from? It comes from his mouth. We believe Jesus proclaimed the power of love, not the love of power. Let’s remember the guy that came in on a donkey with a message of peace, and his peace is going to win out over all the other violence.
In our society we can also find the other Jesus’s. The shame/blame Jesus - that excludes the impure. The prosperity Jesus that blesses people materially here and now because that is the best blessing that God has to give. The elitist Jesus who promotes a warehouse mentality, he is just focussed on collecting merchandise to be later shipped back to heaven and minimising their spoilage until that time.
I hope we are more interested in the undomesticated and radical Jesus.
I had a blessing in Australia a year ago. My first sunday out of pastoate I missed while crossing the dateline. But my wife and I took the day off the following Sunday. Friends had put us up in a hotel in Sydney. Grace and I were walking around Circular Quay to a noodle shop. We heard some live music: a jazz quintent playing. We sat down and ordered our food. The day was perfect, and we thought it couldn’t get any better. Then this Australian woman with her baby gets up and starts dancing around. Soon an old lady got up and started dancing too - out of time. An old codger also joined in - also dancing and swaying out of time. After a brief discussion a professional ballroom dancing couple joined in.
I got up to take a photo of the scene, and when I was standing behind the band I noticed a boy, mentally handicapped, who was standing to one side pretending to play the trumpet. He was so into the music, that he closed his eyes, while he mimed playing the trumpet and eventually wandered until he was standing right in front of the stage. The sax player notices the boy and jumps off the stage and starts playing next to the boy. The trumpet player then jumps off and joined in also. So there were the three of them playing in front of the stage. When the boy eventually opened his eyes and realised what was going on, there was such a feeling of ecstasy on his face. His grandpa was standing to one side and couldn’t have been prouder or happier. I think this was a glimpse of the kingdom of God.
If you proclaim the wrong Jesus, don’t expect people to be excited or possibly change significantly in their lives.
Let’s all join in the prayer of the kingdom.
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Brian Mclaren - Questions & Answers
When Jesus speaks, does he always speak to the local context or does he talk universally, in a way above the specific context?
Every single statement in the Bible emerges in a particular context. The dictation theory of the bible proposes that the writers write down what the Holy Spirit tells him exactly and in the way the Holy Spirit intended it to be. I don’t think there are any serious Christian theologians that believes in that theory, but almost all preachers seem to suggest this is the only theory. This means with any of the apocalyptic writing, that the stuff John writes down means nothing to the people, because it was about stuff far into the future. It is almost anti-communication if that is the case. Despite this, we have the dictation theory in practice. When we talk about narratives in the 20th century, we can talk about meta-narrative. But I have a different view than my critics and what my critics think I say about a meta-narrative.
They use meta-narrative to talk about the one story that explains all stories, the big story for all - that is absolute. This is versus being relative, that is being limited to only the local setting. I think the way Jesus becomes universal is by being local. The way that he is being timeless is by being timely. Meta-narratives have been with people before BC. If you think of a poem or a popular song or a film that has a maximal impact on your life, it does that through being personal. And that’s how it becomes timeless.
>> The gospel of Thomas doesn’t have a narrative, and so isn’t as compelling as the other gospels and the epistles which are also narrative. The sure way to be a dangerous person in the bad sense is to forget that. In my country, people would quote Colossians 4 where it says “slaves obey your masters” as if it was a timeless universal concept. But when you enter into the narrative, it has a completely different understanding.
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This morning you talked about what the gospel has to say about living today, does the gospel say anything about what is to come?
re: afterlife. Because the narrative of empire has dominated Christian faith, the Christian faith was interpreted into that narrative. They over-accommodated into the empire, just as the slave owners over-accommodated the gospel for their framework.
As long as human history is told, we have to face Christian faith is complicit with empire stories. The gospel has had minimal impact on the forces of empire. We’ve generally ended up empowering empire by it instead. If you get rid of afterlife, you have another way of empowering empire. If it’s all about “eat and drink, for tomorrow we die”, then the message is if you fight for injustice, you will get killed, so don’t fight.
But don’t you think that if Jesus, when confronted by Pilate’s question of “are you a king?”, and didn’t believe in an afterlife, would have replied instead “Oh, I am only talking about it in a spiritual sense, and it is nothing that will interfere with your kingdom.”
Jesus is only able to speak to Pilate as he does if he isn’t afraid of dying. Desmond Tutu, MLK all know that ‘the tomorrow we die’ quote is a fraud.
The Pharisees and Scribes believed in an afterlife. Sadduccees and Herodians didn’t. But both were collaborators with the Roman authorities.
I defect from worrying about my own survival to help the poor, if I’m not worried about what happens to my life here and now. There is a sense that believing in an afterlife and believing in the importance of the here and now and how they fit together is very powerful.
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Did Jesus transcend all narratives or fit into one of them?
What Jesus offers is a redeeming narrative – an alternative to all the other narratives. When you watch news you are seeing stories and interpretation of those stories.
The Christmas story in Luke… has the angel saying… I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people…
The term ‘good news’ is not a spiritual term but a political term about the victories of Caesar. So when the angel announces the good news of Jesus’ birth – it is actually not good news to all, because it is not good news for those in power, as it is announcing a new and greater power is here.
In 2002, when the Taliban were still in charge of Afghanistan, they blew up some pre-Islamic statues. How many would say “in the name of Jesus, we should preserve those Buddhist statues”?
A meta-narrative is true and proves all other stories false. Now all religions have elements of truth to them. How and when each of them emerged gives us clues to the forces they were correcting.
In Jesus’ name, let’s discover everything that is good and true about Buddhism, and understand what it was correcting, and how it is a force for justice and for flourishing God’s will to be done. And also, in Jesus’ name, let us understand how Buddhism have been instrumental for injustice. We should be willing to say that about all other religions. Are we willing to say that about Christianity?
The Bible tells us Jesus is the judge, the standard of evaluating all ideology and values. Judge also means “To interpret.”
The Christians were able to say to Rome, you have done a lot of good, but violence isn’t all of the answer, there is more. Jesus told people to listen to the Scribes and Pharisees as they sit in Moses’ judgment seat - listen to them, just don’t follow their example.
What does the gospel have to say to the aboriginals? What does it have to say to Serbs and Croats, or the Tutsis and Hutus?
Reconciliation will bring about pain, but in the end we have good results from the Truth and reconciliation in South Africa; or what occurred in Rwanda also.
Instead of kingdom, if Jesus was here today, what would he say…
(John writes much later, and so he uses a different term than kingdom from Matthew, Mark or Luke). Paul is more kingdom-focussed on this - ecclastia is used often by him…
More to the point, what would we say? Maybe Jesus the sacred ecosystem of God is at hand. The sustainable economy of God. The salvation army is at hand (Booth used the dominant paradigm of the colonial paradigm). The global love. The spiritual internet. The healing internet. The redeeming internet.
Maybe the Al Queda of God is at hand – after all, we need to create secret cells that gather together to covertly plot denotations of hope, explosions of justice, to fly planes of generosity into the twin towers of greed.
What about the government of God?
Generally most people when they think of government they think about bureaucracy. I don’t think that is the impression God wants to be associated with.
Mark uses the term kingdom, just after John was put in prison. Who put him there? Of course, it was King Herod. It almost treasonous. It’s like saying when the Jewish government put John in prison, Jesus announces that the (new and better) government of God is at hand (coming soon to take over).
If we want to see revolution of kingdomity, what would be the practical steps? What were Jesus’ practical steps to living out the kingdom?
“Believe in me” would be his reply.
Blessed are the poor in spirit - I’ve got to remember that it is ok to be weak.
Blessed are those that mourn - I don’t need prozac. it is ok to be unhappy.
We should have a moritarium on the word ‘righteous’ - it translates best into ‘correctness’, than in english where we think righteousness means religiousity.
How do we get back to the real Jesus? Aren’t we always going to be trapped in our own lens and filters?
Engage with the missional process. John 7 - if anyone is willing to do my will…
To learn about the real Jesus involves standing with dignity with the poor and disconnected. The more you connect with the particulars of another, you learn more about what the good news means to them. If I am involved with caring for the other (from what I know about Jesus), as I respond to that I discover more of what Jesus is about.
Should we be asking what is religious versus authentic? Do we need to acknowledge that the religious is not always the full answer? Can we ever assume we have the final word?
We need to acknowledge the presence of the Holy Spirit in interpreting Jesus. Be aware of the dynamic of God revealing to us. Mother Theresa was doing creative theology and research - she was not just a social worker.
We need to look at the gospels in their entirety and not just pick out the separate bits. We need to do the same with Jesus. Get the flow of a gospel. Do this for each Gospel individually and separately, and do not mix them up.
I did my thesis on Walter Casey, who said in reference to the use of language, over time the more we use our religious words, they are worn smooth by overuse. How do we get the words to retain their ridges and unique textures? We need to realise that that can happen. We have to remember that we often read the Bible through the eyes of highly armed educated rich white people.
Our understanding of the word ‘salvation’ is very out of sync with what’s in the bible. I was talking to a Chinese-Malay Christian who said salvation means to them the “healing and liberating power of God in the world.”
Do you think there needs to be a greater grassroots swell of public confession for the mistakes of the church?
Read what Don Miller has to say on this in “Blue like Jazz”.
We often ask ‘Why aren’t there more moderate muslims speaking out against the extremists?’ And we also need to say why aren’t there more moderate Christians speaking out against the extremists?
But confession is not good news. It’s like an alcoholic telling you I beat my wife when I drink too much. Your question would want to be “So are you still drinking?”
So concurrently, and more importantly, there needs to be a greater investment of work in three key areas:
1. Planet - we have an unsustainable lifestyle
2. Poverty - the gap is growing greater and greater – the poor know that if they live somewhere else, they wouldn’t be suffering. People today are able to pursue obscene luxuries than ever before. Cosmetic surgery is a huge expense but increasingly practiced.
3. Peace - when the gap between the rich and poor gets greater, the poor hate the rich, and then when the poor outnumber the rich, the rich fear the poor.
Unfortunately, our religions are not playing a role in making these three steps better. That’s why I am so passionate about understanding the Jesus salvation narrative.
All of us have ways of, and what we do in our jobs is part of this, being part of Jesus’ healing and saving action in the world.

March 28th, 2007 at 9:33 am
Wow, there’s a lot to digest in that - but the thing that stood out for me at first glance was te picture of te Kingdon that Brain saw in the jazz band, the dancers and the intillectually disabled boy playing air trumpet.
What an amazingly beautiful and poignant picture. Dancers dancing, people being accepted at their own place, experts not seeing themsleves as elite - joining with the audience (read ministers of the gospel there) - that is how I see the kingdom as well.
I see how Jesus’ story transcends all other framing stories - I wonder though if it is possible for the gospel to be freed from the framing sotries it has been placed in - how do we do that? How do we re-awaken the world to Jesus’ earth shattering transcendence.
March 29th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
didn’t read much of this.
Most people seem to think the Pharisees were looking forward to a Messiah coming to vercome the Romans David like and reclaim Israel for Israel so to speak.
March 29th, 2007 at 2:41 pm
Still not having much luck with that sentence-construction thing..eh..Homer?
March 29th, 2007 at 2:45 pm
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March 29th, 2007 at 6:16 pm
Nothing really wrong with this post and yet something. Can’t quite put my finger on it.
A little quibble.
I hope people realise that the Herod who arrested John was not King Herod I (who died about 4 BC) but one of his sons, Herod Antipas, who was a tetrach. (And when Jesus called him a fox, it wasn’t because he was wily or sly. A fox in the southern Levant in Jesus’ time was no more than a pest. But I digress)
What I think are my two main quibbles.
I think I am going to soon put “radical” in the same box as “journey” and “resonate” and all those words which now spell “fluff” to me.
If I take three common definitions of radical:
# Arising from or going to a root or source; basic: proposed a radical solution to the problem.
By what BM has said above, Jesus is not a radical. Because the root or source of the world’s problems are sin and evil. Without dealing with them, you cannot deal with injustice and oppression. And that is what Jesus did on the cross: defeat sin and evil. Redemption and reconciliation. Lose that you lose the heart of the gospel. There is something in BMs narrative that seems to miss that and focus too much on the political gospel even if I agree that the scope of the gospel is cosmic.
# Departing markedly from the usual or customary; extreme: radical opinions on education.
# Favoring or effecting fundamental or revolutionary changes in current practices, conditions, or institutions: radical political views.
I am not sure Jesus fits this idea of radical either. Probably not even a reformer. More restorer, or (re)creator. Set things right, back to what they were meant to be. Jesus is the most normal person I know.
Secondly: planet, poverty, peace. OK nice. But why do I get the feeling I am listening to some Episcopalian proclaiming the gospel of UN millenium development goals?
P.S. What was the point of the last post Lance?
March 29th, 2007 at 8:17 pm
I agree saint
BM seems to go the inevitable way that people who are trying to ‘rediscover’ ‘uncover’ the ‘real Jesus’ that has been ‘lost’ throughout history end up recasting Jesus in their own image.
March 30th, 2007 at 9:25 am
Departing markedly from the usual or customary - and you say Jesus didn;t do this? Hmmm, interesting.
March 30th, 2007 at 9:28 am
And whay the remark abot episcopalians? Firstly unless you are an american your reference means nothing, because here in Australia we are known as the Anglican Church and in England we are known as The Church of England.
Your comment appears to show the ususal confusion held by evangelicals that Environment issues and poverty issues are not a part of the Gospel - turn or burn is the be all and end all for some it would seem.
March 30th, 2007 at 9:46 am
I have to say I really loved what BM said. I don’t think he recast Jesus in any image other thatn what Jesus himself did.
March 30th, 2007 at 8:13 pm
Greg,
Departing markedly from the usual or customary Well he was a good observant Jew. And he didn’t depart from the usual or customary, he fufilled the OT prophecies about him and in doing so inaugurated a whole new age, the beginning of a new creation.
And whay the remark abot episcopalians? Because if you have been reading about the current shennigans in the ECUSA or the pontifications of the current PB, you would have noted the similarities (and many many more references other than that are on the interweb, never mind the ‘I am so enlightened’ strain in this Easter message)
Your comment appears to show the ususal confusion held by evangelicalsRight, I am an evangelical am I? And I said environment and poverty were not a part of the gospel did I? BTW, what is the gospel in your view Greg?
March 31st, 2007 at 9:08 am
I really resonate with your radical journey Saint (ha ha!)
“BM seems to go the inevitable way that people who are trying to ‘rediscover’ ‘uncover’ the ‘real Jesus’ that has been ‘lost’ throughout history end up recasting Jesus in their own image.”
Actually, abtruth, I think virtually all religious people recast Jesus in their own image. The fundamentalist Jesus is preoccupied with truth, righteousness, sin and personal morality… the evangelical Jesus is preoccupied with the word of God and personal evangelism… the leftie-liberal Jesus is preoccupied with injustice, poverty and reconciliation… the Pentecostal Jesus is preoccupied with physical healing, spiritual gifts, prosperity, success and joy. Tell me your Jesus, and I will tell you what you are like.
It’s very easy to criticise the “Jesus” of others, it is much more challenging to question one’s own image of Jesus. I think the proper task of theological study and research is to help us understand the Jesus of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter and whoever wrote Hebrews… (the closest we can get to Jesus as He really was)… to understand their world and their culture and their immediate context and their language so we are better able to interpret not only what Jesus said and did but what he meant… so we are able to “obey everything I have commanded” with as much integrity as possible.
March 31st, 2007 at 7:37 pm
Janet you are spot on…
i was having a little swipe at BM and his ilk as they often critisise the evangelical right of the same thing they are guilty of but at the same time was thinking of a post Very similar to yours… thank you . you said it better than i would have and saved me the time.
BTW i actually do have some time for BM and have been in correspondance with his wife Grace over some authors that we both hold in high regard.. often someone writes a piece and does not realise the way it is going to be interpreted by others.. BM often seems to be intentionally vague sometimes which does not help
April 1st, 2007 at 11:21 pm
Well said Janet. Oh and what abtruth said too.
April 2nd, 2007 at 5:29 pm
“BM often seems to be intentionally vague”
I’ve been thinking about that… you know, Jesus was too. He spoke in parables to the crowds that most people didn’t understand. He did so for very good reasons.
I heard BM speak at a “questions without notice” elective… and was extremely impressed at his knowledge of the scriptures and a huge range of theological issues. He’s very, very sharp… actually, he struck me as one of those rare people who is a scholar with a really good grasp of a broad range of issues.
Some people are intentionally vague because they actually know they’re not competent to answer a question (that’s like me teaching junior physics… I’m more of a biology/chemistry girl!).
Others are intentionally vague for good educational reasons (”I’ll make them do the work of connecting all the loose ends so they REALLY think this through”) or for political reasons (”In this room are people from reformed churches, pentecostal churches, liberal churches, evangelical churches… if I go too far down a particular theological track I’ll alienate at least one of these groups, and its not necessary”) or for pastoral reasons (”these people are likely to be at very different stages of faith development, and it will be very unhelpful for some to be critical in a particular issue… it may cause a faith crisis that simply doesn’t need to occur if I choose my words with some care”)
I think BM’s smart enough to be vague for good reasons.
April 2nd, 2007 at 10:35 pm
Again you are right to point out the different ways one may tailor one’s communication to suit the intent or an audience Janet. No quibbles there.
I have no doubt that McLaren is an intelligent, thoughtful man. He may be vague for good reasons.
I don’t think Jesus was ‘vague’ however (different dynamic in his parables I think)
McLaren irks me at times I think because he seems to be rallying against a particular form of American evangelicalism/fundamentalism which seems foreign to me. Perhaps you can find more points of connection in your situation/experience.
And I note that he too - with others - is a founding pastor of yet another independent church . I wonder too if his ‘influence’ and ‘network’ is not as ‘generous’ in its spread as some would like to think it is. The former especially always spells caution to me.
April 2nd, 2007 at 10:38 pm
Oh and another word that is fast heading towards by list: “authentic”. I just thought I’d let the world know that
April 3rd, 2007 at 8:09 am
In my faith journey I’ve come to resonate with the authentic radical Jesus.
(I just can’t help myself! Do you have any more words on your list?!!!!)
Seriously… I’ll have to confess I haven’t yet read one Brian McLaren book so you’re better qualified to have a feel of his possible agendas. It’s not my world either, but I do feel the “religious right” in America might do well to listen to some of its critics.
Yes, you’re right… “vague” isn’t the best word. I suppose my point is that Jesus (and good teachers the world over) don’t always fully explain themselves… they invite people to think for themselves, and ask questions when they’re ready. Note from Matthew 13
10The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”
11He replied, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
April 3rd, 2007 at 8:17 am
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April 3rd, 2007 at 4:05 pm
That might be something you’d need BNM’s permission to do - or even his wifes. Fell his agenda - Hmmm interesting.
Saint you say that Jesuis wasn;t a radical - I suggest that much of what he did was indeed radical - his approcah to women and sinners and sin is quite radical - no moral self righteosuness but rather a compassionate non ju8dgemental (all the turn ro burn stuff was directed at trhe religious and self righteous of the time.
His approach to prayer and fasting was radical - calling GOd by the familiar Abba.
Hanging around the outcast and sinners was quite radical - nothing normal about him at all -IMHO.
As for calling you an evangelical - I didn’t…read the post again - Your comment appears to show the ususal confusion held by evangelicals… -
April 3rd, 2007 at 5:27 pm
LOL Janet!
Today’s word for you is ‘inclusive’
I agree that some teachers try to prompt people to think for themselves and that it is a good strategy. Jesus certainly turned the tables on his questioners at times (and yes vague is not the right word for Jesus. The dynamics of his parables are pretty mind bending I think. It’s almost as if in their telling he creates the seeing vs the non-seeing…just musing aloud here…)
Greg -
Radical for whom? Relative to whom or what? Was Jesus a radical for paying taxes? Was Jesus radical because he didn’t wash his hands? Was Jesus radical for telling the leper to go show himself to the priests after he had been healed?
I personally don’t think radical is the word I would use for Jesus or his actions.
As to the second part, my apologies. Let me try again.
Right,
I am an evangelical am I? AndI said environment and poverty were not a part of the gospel did I?April 3rd, 2007 at 6:15 pm
I have an inclusive faith, and I resonate and journey with fellow authentic pilgrims committed to a radical gospel of truth and love.
April 3rd, 2007 at 6:42 pm
What? Not a radical inclusive gospel Janet? LOL
April 3rd, 2007 at 7:03 pm
It is a radical inclusive gospel where people of all socioeconomic groups, genders, races, and religions are welcome at the table… where ROSS1 and LEWIS2 and Pastor Shirley 3 and all manner of complete nutters journey together and are embraced in a warm fuzzy authentic circle of lurve. Praise the Lord.
April 3rd, 2007 at 7:29 pm
Now with some attempt at seriousness… I might throw in a comment about the “radical” word.
In Latin it means root… radicle is still the biological term for the central root of a young plant.
The first definitions in my encyclopedia say:
The root or roots; fundamental; far reaching; thorough; going to the root (radical change); advocating through reform.
I think in this definition… Jesus was a radical… calling us back to who we are created to be, reminding us of our fundamental purpose as servants of God and stewards of creation… reminding us of our roots.
“Radical” is often evokes the idea of someone who is highly reactionary or a zealot of sorts. But it doesn’t necessarily mean this.
We can argue about semantics… Jesus was “radical” in that he certainly moved to the beat of a different drum… Jesus was not “a radical” in the sense that he was not some kind of mad zealot trying to overthrow the Romans by force or by political deals to set up an earthly kingdom.
April 3rd, 2007 at 8:14 pm
“servants of God and stewards of creation”
Just thought I might get in trouble for sounding a bit Episcopalian here. I do of course mean this in a very Genesis 1 and 2 ish sort of way.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:45 pm
I think you and I are on the same page Janet. What I asked in #5 was, would BM’s talk above make you think his Jesus was radical in that sense?
Put it this way. Gen 1 and Gen 2 tells us about God creating, and the creational order of relationships (God-man, man with himself, man-man, man -creation). When these go awry thanks to sin and evil, then the only person who can fix it is the Creator himself. Why the long church tradition of our Creator is Redeemer, Covenant God is Creator God etc etc. Redemption is the basis, means(?) of recreation.
OK feel free to improve on that - very hurried and simplistic I know.
April 4th, 2007 at 8:16 am
Greg - you’re better qualified to have a feel of his possible agendas.
That might be something you’d need BNM’s permission to do - or even his wifes. Fell his agenda - Hmmm interesting.
don’t you hate it when one little spelling mistake makes your joke hard to get on first read..
April 4th, 2007 at 8:56 am
I don’t think that summary is simplistic, I think it’s accurate.
Was Jesus ushering in something new? Yes and no is probably the best answer. No, in that the Kingdom of God Christ proclaimed IS a restoration of how things were intended to be… right relationships with God, with ourselves, with one another, and with the created order.
Yes, in that God was doing something new in history in the incarnation of Christ… Jesus revealed the Father in a unique way, Jesus death and resurrection were God’s means of restoration / reconciliation of a fallen world.
I think Brian’s explanation of the kingdom of God as an alternative to the typical “5 framing stories” of civilizations does sit with “My Kingdom is not of this world” and the parables of the Kingdom. The Kingdom of God is not like a conquering army… it is like yeast. It quietly and mysteriously grows. Its teaching (think sermon on the mount) is profoundly counter-cultural in a “be strong, stick up for yourself and make things happen” kind of world.
I think in his talk Brian did do a theologian’s job… in that he painted a picture of the world in which Jesus lived, clarifying just how profoundly Jesus moved to the beat of a different drum. And I think he did the educator’s job of not tying up all the loose ends, but leaving the listeners to think about what that might mean for living out their faith in 2007. Not everyone likes that style… but I think it has merit.
April 5th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
I hate being old and having large fingers tyupoingf isd hasrtdf tyop dfop whnerm yuioert a fgumnbler fginfgred
May 25th, 2007 at 9:57 am
I am trying to find some of Brian Maclaren’s books to buy. Can anyone point me in the right direction? I am I wrong in thinking they won’t be at Koorong???