Looking for Jesus: Refuges in Faith
An interesting article in the age today with some familiar names quoted and mentioned: Credo Cafe, Cheryl Lawrie, Mark Sayers, Ruth Powell, Alan Hirsch, Don Carson and others.
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April 6th, 2007 at 1:15 pm
[…] unknown wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptAn interesting article in the age today with some familiar names quoted and mentioned: Credo Cafe, Cheryl Lawrie, Mark Sayers, Ruth Powell, Alan Hirsch, Don Carson and others. Looking for Jesus: Refuges in Faith. […]
April 6th, 2007 at 5:02 pm
If Alan Hirsch / Wolfgang Simpson and others are to be believed, what this article doesn’t articulate is the sheer scale of the “non institutional church” on a global level… most Christians have heard of the house church phenomenon in China, but it’s happening in the West, in Africa, in India, in various Muslim countries (strictly “under the radar” there in particular).
For the akevin’s of this world, Signposts is just a sniping ground at “God’s gift” of the institutional church… but God is much bigger than the institutional church (in fact, Wolfgang Simpson argues it’s not what Jesus had in mind at all).
In the West… there’s also huge numbers of Christians who have a personal faith but are not connected to either an institutional church or another expression of faith community.
I wonder whether God might be wanting to gather some of the exiles together to “do church” in small and organic ways? All who hold Jesus as Lord are part of the church universal… I think the fact the word for church in the bible means “assembly” suggests there is something in the nature of “true church” that seeks community, that seeks to express the body of Christ together.
Maybe an online community can do this a little too…
April 6th, 2007 at 11:45 pm
Great article! It’s great to see Christians getting out there and being relevant at Easter time instead of doing the east, familar stuff.
April 8th, 2007 at 9:35 am
Christ is risen, Signposters all.
April 8th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
I suppose I fall under this category, looking for a church and being constantly dismayed at the influence of money and many other issues. The house church seems to have its benefits in losing many of these issues and getting back to the basics. I am not naive to believe that it wouldnt have its problems though.
I was wondering if anyone new of any in the Hills district. Yes my search still goes on.
April 8th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
Janet dahlink!
Just for the fun of it I like this stuff about wolfgang and the work he is doing to bring change to the church. No prob at all there. Actually love Lionfish and his tithing stuff - enjoy the heck out of your posts also. i don’t think EVERYBODY on SP is a church basher. I like some of the emerging church stuff because it is adressing ??? I have had here for over 20 years. I am a fan of the Open Church” that Jim Rutz is all about. when I refer to one note songs, I am actually refering to post No. 9 million two hundred and three about “Hillsong the next installment” + “Lance posts on Saturday Night whatever”, Those are some pretty tired songs - My opinion anyway.
As for the actual emerging church stuff - this is good dialog. It is about people DOING something in the world. Speaking of which ( people DOING something) where is Rev - I haven’t seen his postings on here. Surely he did not get runned oft too.
I couldn’t agree more that we need a 3rd reformation in the way church is done, but I am not sure that throwing the baby out with the bathwater is a good idea either. Seems to me like a sunday service or another type of meeting being the FOCAL POINT of our christian life is what gets everything off.
As far as Sp being a church - I don’t think so. It can be a good place for dialog but it misses the “eklkesia/church” definition -{a gathering of citizens called out from their homes}” - so I guess if we were to use this as a defining point, - (not saying we have to) then a strictly home meeting wouldn’t officially qualify either. Therefore I think their is room for a church based in cells and meeting in largetr corporate meetings also - (maybe a Christian City Church in Melbourne type of thing)
So I cut and pasted the greek ecclesia for clarity purposes to let you know my basis.
Ekklesia A New testament word that defines church:
a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
1. an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
2. the assembly of the Israelites
3. any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
4. in a Christian sense
1. an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
2. a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order’s sake
3. those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
4. the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
5. the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven
April 8th, 2007 at 1:28 pm
John… not my area, but you could try emailing Pete (the NSW director of Forge) pete@forge.org.au for any leads they have…
Hello akevin in a much softer mode than your last post! Yes, I agree there’s room for both the IC and EC to get the whole job of God’s mission done… I believe there’s room for both/and depending on how God calls.
Yes I’ve been missing the Rev… he’s disappeared since “Dangerous Stories.” Busy I’m guessing, doing the stuff!
April 8th, 2007 at 3:19 pm
He is risen indeed
Cheers
MN
April 8th, 2007 at 8:12 pm
I gave up blogs and forums for lent.
I am back now, hopefully a bit healthier and a bit more like Jesus than I was before. Was a decent article.
I posted a message on my blog for easter if y’all are interested.
johnthereverend.com
rev
April 8th, 2007 at 8:15 pm
The day before I wrote my blog that was copied by Lance in “Hillsongs the next installment” I had a wonderful conversation for about 3 hours with a guy who left church about 4 years ago.
One of the things he was struggling with when he left is if God had more in mind for His people, how could he keep making his presence known at church. And then he got this vision/analogy.
Imagine the church as a fishbowl. The people inside are the goldfish. The fish can only grow as large as the fishbowl, so it doesn’t overflow, it doesn’t get cramped, it doesn’t die because it can’t move around.
God’s spirit is the water. Now, even though some of here don’t believe that church is the be all and end all of what God has for us, he’s not going to take his spirit away. He’s not going to take the water out of the fishbowl, because the fish will die.
At the same time, God can not take the fish out of the bowl and put it in the living stream, because it will die as well.
Those who have left the church to find God in various other ways have made it into the stream. It’s fairly empty there, and the adjustment is painful and lonely.
But God loves his people. If they are in the fishbowl, the church so to speak, he is not going to remove himself. Nor is he going to put them in a situation they can not handle.
He is not going to give them the freedom that they can’t handle. He loves them far too much.
And so at this point I would like to say that to many many people church is absolutely necessary. And God respects that. He respects the time and effort people commit to church. He appreciates that so many take time out of their life to do something that they believe honors God. And the best thing is that God judges man on his intentions.
So now that I’m out in the river, experiencing God in a much different way (and very much an uncomforatable way at first) I have found myself feeling so much freer. I’m out of the fishbowl, I’m out of the enclosure.
When I first left the church I was incredibly bitter. I guess you could say I jumped out of the fishbowl because I didn’t like it. I felt too constricted, not to mention the myriads of political problems. However, I recognize that there are a lot of fantastic, loving, accepting people in the church I once called my spiritual home. To them I hope that they will find God on their own, that they won’t have to be in the one place to experience Him.
To those that are out, I hope that they will have the strength to grow in this very lonely time.
This whole analogy helped me immensely to see things the way I hadn’t seen before. I guess at the end of the day we need to remember (especially on Easter) that God loves us unconditionally and meets us where we are.
April 8th, 2007 at 8:34 pm
That was a very nice post.
I actually disagree but I appreciate the sentiment immensly.
rev
April 8th, 2007 at 9:07 pm
Hey Rev,
I assume you’re talking about my post. I guess the great thing is that we each have a personal relationship with God and He speaks to us in different ways. What helps me might go against what others believe and vice versa.
I certainly know that a year ago I would’ve considered the person I am today a complete throw-away… not worthy of being called my friend. Funny how times change =P
Happy Easter!
April 8th, 2007 at 10:09 pm
I do not consider even the Hillsong bunch to be complete throw aways, God does miracles in peoples hearts. I know this because God constantly does so in my own.
What I disagree with is that the fish in the tank can’t make it outside of the tank. Jesus broke the walls of the tanks constantly, he was not nice in dealing with the temple, or the religious leaders. Jesus calls us to break out of all of our false envirements, and out of oppression, and to trust Him in the process. You made it out alive, and I am sure you didn’t think you could before hand.
rev
April 8th, 2007 at 10:48 pm
For the record, on the topic of fish, Lionfish do not thrive in aquariums. We prefer to hide around reefs, protect our territory and are masters of the ambush attack.
Conemporary Church Pastors are Sharks. The feed on the naieve, the sick, the weak and are attracted by blood of the wounded. They live by dvelouring those who do not do theior homework, are emotionally weak orsick and desperate for a miracle.
April 8th, 2007 at 10:49 pm
Welcome bak Rev.
April 9th, 2007 at 8:58 am
The Rev’s back in fighting form. Lovely to have you back.
LF is in even stronger fighting form. You really are sounding quite Luther-like!
April 9th, 2007 at 10:09 am
Lionfish, in his usual balanced style wrote:
‘Conemporary Church Pastors are Sharks’
Does that apply to contemporary Lutheran pastors as well?
April 9th, 2007 at 11:08 am
I think he means “Pentecostal Mega-church pastors who preach prosperity doctrine and legalistic tithing” (and their imitators) not “all currently working pastors”
April 9th, 2007 at 11:29 am
Thanks for the clarification Janet -
April 9th, 2007 at 11:44 am
Lionfish - after just reading some remearks on apologetics index about some Brian Mclaren statements (assuming them to be true and in context) - I was wondering your thoughts on the EC - is it heretical also??
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/303-emerging-church-versus-doctrine
April 9th, 2007 at 11:53 am
You are a thoughtful, thought provoking, interesting group of people. Have not disappeared, have been reading away…. still thinking!!!
April 9th, 2007 at 11:57 am
Hey Kevin, two points. The first is the substitutionary atonement theology is not the be all and end all of Christian theology. And if you do some research you will find that the Eastern Orthodox church does not follow it, and has not from the very beginning of the church following instead the idea of Christus Victor.
And second point, why do theologians from the evangelical camp attack the popular writers of the new movement, especially when they are expressing their own unsureness, rather than taking on the theologians of our movement. Why doesn’t Carson take a stab at N T Wright? Or John Franke? In my opinion its because they would tear him to shreds.
What people don’t seem to realize is that most of us thought we were very sure of ourselves and our theology. And what has happened is we have changed over time. Is it any wonder we don’t have the surety we once had? When I was wrong before, why shouldn’t I think we will be wrong again? And when I believe so strongly before, yet was mistaken, how can I be so sure I will not experience that again? So rather than pretend that what we have learned is the be all and end all, we are comfortable with our doubt and our questions, a fact that these black and white people cannot accept.
But this I can say, the way I am living and doing church now, looks much more like what we read about in the gospels and Acts, than anything I have seen from the traditional, or the contemporary church.
rev
April 9th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
Hi Rev - good to read your voice again…
Yeah, I can see what you are saying and I can agree with that line of reasoning, some. “the way I am living and doing church now, looks much more like what we read about in the gospels and Acts, than anything I have seen from the traditional, or the contemporary church.” I can agree with you on that too.
It seems like we hold some people though to a standard we do not hold others to. So if we zero in on Houston about some of his off the wall stuff,
we should be able to also on McClaren. I like a lot of the EC stuff i have read - many of my own questions about the way things are has been foundationed in Jim Rutz’ Open church stuff. While I like EC I am not readtyto buy in - trouble is that i am 51 and when I finally figure it out, it will be outdated and I will be dead.
April 9th, 2007 at 12:55 pm
The thing I like is your all’s approach to DOING something constructive - (bitching is annoying not constructive.) - I mean you could be working at a nine to five church job in Oklahoma and living much more comfortably, so i could never fault your heart about it, even if I dis agred with your theology. Even if some mega pastor takes up an offering for you, your still all right by me.
hey, check your e-mail - i’ll send tyou my notes from today “An inconvenient truth” - it was about eternal warming.
April 9th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
Most of what McClaren says is speculation, and admitting he is not sure. Something I think is honorable. The differences between he and Houston are huge, but the greatest difference is McClaren is actually looking at Jesus’ life, and not basing a theology around Abraham and King David. McClaren is trying to make sense of the Jesus we see in the gospels and the bullshit we have been taught by the church throughout the years. Houston is trying to see how he can have more money, more stuff, and more fun, while ignoring the suffering servant he pretends to follow.
rev
April 9th, 2007 at 6:50 pm
Rev, i don’t have your experience of the traditional or contemporary church. i’ve witnessed many christian churches who have faithfully, and with enormous integrity, sought to live the way of Jesus.
i don’t go to a mainstream church anymore, but i do want to honour those i know who continue to endeavour to live that way.
April 9th, 2007 at 7:19 pm
Cheryl, I think you misread me, I never said I didn’t see anything of value in them. Nor did I say they weren’t full of wonderful people. But Jesus lived a simple life, he had a small group of friends, he lived with them night and day. He lived the kingdom, practiced self sacrifice, stood against the power structures of his day. The traditional churches and contemporary churches have chosen a different path, they are the power structures. It is a testimony to the grace of God, and the goodness of these people that we don’t see more problems, and more abuses.
But if you look at structure, and practical living, the church looks nothing like the life of Jesus and the early church. They met in homes, had almost no infrastructure, leadership was truly servant leadership, every believer had the responsiblity of discipleship, and every joint was required to provide. It wasn’t a matter of I try to be a good person, read my bible and pray and pay someone else to tell me good bible lessons and entertain my kids one day a week. There was no building funds, well there was actually, it was a fund that the money from the sale of homes and land went into to care for the poor and the widows.
Again, wonderful people, but not biblical structure. What we have now was not given to us by Jesus, but by Constantine, and I don’t like it very much.
rev
April 9th, 2007 at 7:43 pm
i’m sorry if i misread you, Rev.
I’m not sure that Jesus ever spoke out against the temple - please correct me if i’m wrong. he went to the temple to worship, and he was outraged by the injustices perpetrated by some of those with power in the temple. but i don’t recall him ever giving up on it.
i’ve witnessed terrible injustices, manipulation and abuse within small groups and house churches - truly. it’s less systemic and more personality based. but i don’t think we should give up on them for that reason. i think we should hold them to account, and see what promise there is for redemption.
of course the first christian communities were small. there were only a few christians.
i don’t want to defend the institutional church, but i certainly don’t want to say that God won’t and can’t work through it.
April 9th, 2007 at 7:57 pm
Cheryl, this is completely off the topic but I don’t know if you ever read my question about you being a post modern Christian? I was wondeirng what you meant by that…if you don’t feel comfortable explaining it here you can email me at emjmwhale@yahoo.com.au
…also re: discussion…my impression was that Jesus did speak out against the Pharisees and their system…my understanding of what rev is saying is that God works through people within the church, as he works through any beleiver, but the church as we know it was never what was intended. Is that right?
April 9th, 2007 at 7:59 pm
actually, Rev, the difference between us probably lies in how we understand the descriptions of the early church. i think you would say that they show how the christian church should be shaped. i would say they are a description of how christians of that time faithfully shaped and formed their community. if that is our difference, we’ll probably keep disagreeing!