more from Mike Frost
Some more notes from Forge National Summit - Dangerous Stories 2
mike frost - last session
Forge events are like a gathering of the clan, it is great to be among family.
Luke 14 - Eating with the Pharisees
Henri Neuwen talks about reaching out.
One of the movements, if we are serious about following in the footsteps of Jesus, is about moving from hostis to hospis, that is hostility to hospitality. Our world is governed by hostis. Suspicion, anxiety, and anger all impinge on your own life. It is standard operating procedure for our society. Hostis guards one’s own space at the expense of others. We need to fashion it into the space of others and allow them to truly be themselves and what God intended them to be in the first place.
Daryl Gardiner spoke about the sanitised Jesus of contemporary Christianity versus dirty Jesus of the Bible. The presentation of a sanitised Jesus is hostis. It is what the world expects and involves a vengeful and an excluding God. The dirty Jesus is the hospice Jesus, who fashions space in which people might blossom and grow.
We need to recommit ourselves to the process, to the costly and hard work of hospis.
Luke 14:1 ¶ One Sabbath, when Jesus went to eat in the house of a prominent Pharisee, he was being carefully watched.
Luke 14:2 There in front of him was a man suffering from dropsy.
Luke 14:3 Jesus asked the Pharisees and experts in the law, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath or not?”
Luke 14:4 But they remained silent. So taking hold of the man, he healed him and sent him away.
Luke 14:5 ¶ Then he asked them, “If one of you has a son or an ox that falls into a well on the Sabbath day, will you not immediately pull him out?”
Luke 14:6 And they had nothing to say.
Back in those days, when the Pharisee threw open the gates to invited guests, it was not unusual that if someone snuck in when all the guests invited arrived, that the host was obliged to feed them. These uninvited freeloaders were called the umbra, the shadow, as they shadowed the invited guests.
One day I was at a casino, and was looking around because I had never been in there before. I approached the High Rollers room, but was prevented from entering by the bouncers there. Just then, a group of people came in from behind me. And they were asked whether they were part of Uncle Cedric’s party, they said yes, and I also nodded and went in. I became one of the umbra. and shadowed the others inside. It was nice inside, you got good food but eventually I left after I had looked around.
In another story, Jesus was invited to Simon’s place. And there was a woman who was an umbra at the party. She slipped in, and she was a freeloader. All the guests were kissed and had their feet washed. But at that party, Jesus was treated as an umbra even though he was an invited guest. The woman eventually kissed his feet and washed it for him.
There is lots of evidence that Jesus was often an umbra at parties, one of those that lurks at kitchen door.
In this story, Luke 13, it says that the Pharisees and lawyers were watching him closely. Looking to criticise him, an example of hostis.
1. Jesus, the shadow man, always prefers people over religion.
There are laws and requirements that people need to follow. One of those were the adherence to the sabbath. Now, there were many legitimate reasons to keep the sabbath. But there were also reasons in this situation where adherence goes against the intent of the sabbath.
Jesus highlights the ridiculous extent to which adherence to sabbath would lead.
Many in the emerging church find they are set free from the rules of traditional church rituals, but then get caught up in the paraphilia of what is emerging church. Don’t get too busy to not engage with the umbra, or healing the sick because I spent too much time in the maintanence of religious practice. You can spend so much time trying to put on something cool, and miss out on spending time with people. I recently asked clergy how much time they had for the umbra in their lives? How much does maintaining what they do suck us from the umbra of our situation?
1stly, people not religion.
2ndly, when he noticed the seating pattern. If you invite Jesus to dinner and he says he wants to tell a story, you know you are in trouble.
Luke 14:7 ¶ When he noticed how the guests picked the places of honor at the table, he told them this parable:
Luke 14:8 “When someone invites you to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for a person more distinguished than you may have been invited.
Luke 14:9 If so, the host who invited both of you will come and say to you, ‘Give this man your seat.’ Then, humiliated, you will have to take the least important place.
Luke 14:10 But when you are invited, take the lowest place, so that when your host comes, he will say to you, ‘Friend, move up to a better place.’ Then you will be honored in the presence of all your fellow guests.
Luke 14:11 For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
Jesus said wouldn’t it be embarrassing if you had to be moved down, after having put yourself in a more important position than you should. It sounds like he’s giving practical dinner party etiquette. He turn hostis into hospis by preferring humility to personal honour. Additionally, when you start at the bottom, you have a completely different perspective of any situation.
I can’t tell you how the church has fashioned hierarchy in so many areas, such as in conferences. Can you see Jesus doing that?
Ash Barker talks about the film “Titanic”. Jack is a shadow person on the Titanic. He’s not meant to be on the ship, and through a quirk of circumstance, he meets Rose. He then takes her under and opens her eyes to a much different vision of the world than if she had stayed above.
That’s what Jesus does for us. Come with me into the steerage, and the mess and music… You will see something the likes that you have never seen before.
In Maryborough, a Victorian country town, there lived a guy with a mental disability called Wal Richards. He sat on the main intersection and said hello to everyone that went passed, and that’s all anyone thought he would be capable of doing for the rest of his life. When he was a teenager, someone gave him camera. He turned up to every wedding in Maryborough and photographed, uninvited. He would jump into the bridal car, uninvited, and just get in the way of things. He was considered a nuisance to the people. People avoided putting announcements about their weddings in the local paper in order to make sure he wasn’t there. He couldn’t drive, so he rode a dragster pushbike to photograph the weddings. When he died, they were surprised to find at his house hundred and hundreds of photos. People assumed he didn’t have film in his camera. And these photos showed an entirely different perspective of the town’s weddings than any of the professional photographers did. Not all of them were in focus, but after he died - the city ran a photography exhbition of his best photos. In the printed guide to the exhibition, it said “He was a gift to the town and he had shown us in a way that we never ever would had seen.”
Don’t tell me you are a missional church unless you have gone to the bottom of the table and helped people see things they can’t see themselves.
When we, as conference, sent out Alan, I saw a united tribe. My wife saw the same scene but said she saw a leadership without women. In male dominated circles, it is women who have a vision that the men can’t see.
Get out. Take your camera and photograph the world as it is seen at the foot of the table. Prefer people over religion, and prefer humility over honour.
Thirdly:
Luke 14:12 Then Jesus said to his host, “When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid.
Luke 14:13 But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,
Luke 14:14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
This is logical. Invite those to the table that can’t repay you. This is a key plank of hospis. We should practice a ferocious form of hospitality.
In “Hotel Rwanda”, the main character as a hutu creates space and practices hospitality to Tutsis. There was nothing physically stopping death squads walking into the hotel except for one man’s devotion to hospitality, one man’s moral integrity. He does anything he can to stop them.
We are called to invite those who can’t, the marginalised, the shunned and the poor. The merging church is not about cooler worship, or pissed-off and cynical evangelicals.
Alan once said that hopefully we will look back and say that at the end of the 20th century, at the turn of the 21st century, there was the decline of the church, but when the fathers and mothers embraced mission as their defining purpose and were propelled out and went to the margins, they turned the tide.
I don’t want them to look back and say, yeah there was a group of cranky evangelical - they were lazy and self-focussed and wanted things their way, and something flared up. But all it did was create a little blip in the declining trend of the church.
Those people…
preferred people over religion;
launched people that practised humility over honour - they were selfless, they were generous, and denied their own self-interest.
they moved out like a wave of shadow people, and turned the hostis of Australian culture into the hospis of Jesus.
Do you want to be part of a movement that isn’t about new innovative structures, new worships, etc, but follows the shadow man to the bottom of the table to share lives and photographed the umbra.
We need to embrace dangerous Christian disciplines, selfless generosity, and build spiritual muscle. Stories will kick off something, but it is our discipline that will be the dangerous impact on this wide brown land.
Let us go and love, to serve and empty ourselves into the lives of others, the umbra, the lurkers of kitchen doors, and the hungry ones. And all because we follow the most marvellous umbra of all.
April 13th, 2007 at 11:49 am
^ ^ Yep, that’s my understanding re: the Trinity too, Emma.
Given the number of books, papers, etc etc that have been written on sexuality over the years, I didn’t think it would be elitist condescending bullshit to suggest that it might be a more complex issue than one that could be dealt with “simply” in the comments section of a blog. But then, y’know, I’m a condescending elitist full of bullshit.
April 13th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
Email sent to you, Rev.
April 13th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
Email sent to you, Rev.
April 13th, 2007 at 12:07 pm
Email sent to you, Rev.
April 13th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
hey Greg…..i hope i’m not basing what i’m saying soley on my experience. I’d like to think that what a share is a combination of my experience, the expereince of others and observation plus the research that i’ve been reading for the last 8 years.
i think i’m in a pretty privileged position here in Australia and would have more contact with people on both sides of the fence sorting out the faith/ sexuality question than most if not anyone esle. that however doesn’t make me always right or an expert but I feel it enables me to be more objective (something I do constantly to make my living as a life coach).
Bec said
I’ve had over the years, I suspect that generally speaking, the sexuality of women might be more fluid than that of men And I think - though my understanding is now terribly outdated - that research might confirm this.
yes bec……from what i’ve read from many sources the general thinking is this is true.
bec Says:
April 13th, 2007 at 9:24 am
avb, you ask: “Can you imagine a hetero man falling in love with his best mate wanting to bed him and spend the rest of his life with him. I think not.”
Actually, I can, because I’ve seen it.
avb responds……i would genuinely love to talk with someone like that Bec. I’d find it fascinating. personally i’ve never met a male like that or read about it any research.
April 13th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
^ ^ really? Well, I can only take people at their word…though like you, I suspect people who experience such things aren’t “heterosexuals” becoming “homosexuals” but rather people who’ve fallen somewhere in the middle. couldn’t put you in touch, btw, because I don’t know them anymore (so I have no idea how they’d tell their story now, obviously!)
April 13th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
The only way out is to either lie and say you have changed or lose your mind…or get some proper distance and realise you’re not a failure for being who you are
Well said Emma……and thanks for the compliment. I love to hear from readers and get any feedback so feel free to email me anthony@anthonyvennbrown.com
April 13th, 2007 at 12:44 pm
MN the bible doesn’t actually teach that ther is a trinity - it suggests it but it most definitely is a monotheistic text - The Lord your GOd He is ONE! not three -
April 13th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
avb I’ve actually been asked to review your book for a publication, so will email it to you when finished.
re: the whole deb Exodus thing I am not at all saying she isn’t a loving compassionate person and I am glad to hear the exodus thing has moved on from what it once was…but what I would like to hear from groups like this who have made mistakes in the past is an achnowledgement of thoes mistakes. It’s not enough to laugh and say, “no one thinks like that anymore” without publicly saying. you know what, with the best of intentions some people were really stuffed up by what we did and we apologise.
April 13th, 2007 at 2:22 pm
Yeah, I’m with you there, too Emma. Same applies to people people like Brian Houston - if he’s done even some of the things that are suggested on here, he needs to be public about his regrets. I know that’s a huge expectation - but if you’re given a lot, a lot’s expected of you.
I have major issues with the continued use of terms like “gay subculture” - it just reinforces the “Us” and “Them” stuff, and it treats homosexual people as if they’re all the same, which is ridiculous. Nobody ever runs a seminar on how to reach Boring Middle Class White Girls Doing a PhD.
April 13th, 2007 at 2:27 pm
Nor Bi-Racial Journalists with Lefty Tendencies. Ha!
April 13th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
It’s also weird because if I look at my social circles at least, I couldn’t say that my homosexual friends are any more or less unimpressed with the Church than are my heterosexual friends.
P’raps the Rev could get you and I a gig as speakings on how to reach the Over-Educated Young Feminist subculture? Or Dan and I could do one on how to reach the Cynical Practising Lawyer subculture?
Oh - and I could really, really do with some help knowing how to reach the Conservative Narrow-Minded Churchperson subculture. That’s the group I struggle to understand most (just in case it didn’t already show).
(just joshin’ Rev, just joshin’…hopefully you know I can still see the point of these things…)
April 13th, 2007 at 2:39 pm
btw Emma, if you shoot Dan your email, I’ll email you…I didn’t realise you were a journo, would love to have a chat to you!
April 13th, 2007 at 3:01 pm
sure, actually I’ve posted it on here before, it’s emjmwhale@yahoo.com.au - love to chat! And yes I struggle with the Conservative Narrow-Minded Churchperson subculture the most too.
April 13th, 2007 at 11:34 pm
Emma
thanks for at least pointing me to a place where at least I can read what the arguments being put are and will endeavour to have a read.
With respect to Greg and Bec about my statement about the Trinity not being an explanation - you’re right it’s not - if you want a blow by blow verb by verb theological treatise - but at the same it is. Sometimes you look at a position, understand it or not, and in the end accept it on faith. May be sometimes the position changes when more information comes to light, may be not.
As far as this statement goes:
More importantly - **I believe half the crap that Christians suffer and deal out to each other RESULTS from trying to deal with things “simply”**
I can’t disagree with you more…it results from dealing with things wrongly, which may and very often may not be the same thing.
Consider the story about the Roman centurion - he did things on a very simple basis - he accepted authority, and exercised expecting others to do the same - no fuss, no arguing the point - and Jesus commended him because he acted on faith greater than any He had encountered in Israel.
Jesus actually looks for people who just accept things with a simple understanding - He’s not all that wrapped in worldly wisdom and meaninlgless talk (Mt 11:25, 1 Cor 1-3, 1 Tim 1: 3-11 and much more). Maybe He is just looking for people to simply do what they are told instead of endlessly argue the point all the time.
The fool says in his heart there is no God, and the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom - the gap is those who accept God and don’t fear Him enough - this leads all sorts of gross stupidities in the name of God because we think we can twist Him to suit our purposes.
Consider this: the main lesson that history teaches us if nothing else is that every generation tries to use theology to justify self interest which is generally about trying to change sin into being OK - apartheid, the Crusades, slavery, refusing women the vote, indulgences - I am sure you can add to the list - I think .
And every generation thinks it knows more and better than the previous generations and falls for the same trick - I’m sick of the dishonesty and bullshit. Thousands of books get written to try and cover our tracks. Why are we any different? Why are you any different?
I am sick of people try and turn evil into good and especially “Christians”. In our age of post modernism and being politically correct it shows up as everything is alright, do what feels good, nothing is wrong provided you don’t hurt anybody, and for goodness sakes don’t ever say that somebody or something is wrong. What do you think Rom 1 and 2 is about? I’m living in it!
Try this one on for size. I can’t find a reference to paedophilia being wrong. Tell me - which generation is going to the first to come out and say this is OK as long as a child consents? Sometimes we know something is wrong because we know, not because we can explain or heaven forbid because God said it - until someone has a vested interest and we try and justify the unjustifiable. Bec if you’re a lawyer you should be well and truly familiar with that - can’t be guilty even if you are.
The more complex it gets the more untrusting I think we should be - in my line of work when some one calls for a lawyer, you sure as hell know something’s wrong.
If in wrestling with an issue the conversation doesn’t get to seriously asking within the next decade what does God think or want its just wasted time and like men talking about footy. If I don’t know what God wants then its best to wait. If it seems pretty plain that God doesn’t approve then don’t bloody do it no matter how much it costs me. If Jesus had taken the attitude that I seem to read on here a lot (and have been too often guilty myself of), we’d be stuffed because He would have found a way to weasel out of going to the cross and call that a good outcome.
Cheers
MN
April 14th, 2007 at 12:35 am
Deb left Exodus, and publically talks about these things. She has grown in her understanding, and I suspect she has apologised for former ignorance to the people that she needed to.
rev
April 14th, 2007 at 12:52 am
Don’t read the news (or my blog?) Try ours.
Waiting in the wings and watching the political process to take lessons from them and the gay activists: polyamorists, zoophiles, incest groups…
April 14th, 2007 at 1:50 am
What can one say about that? We live in a stuffed world - in its own way its a measure of how much God does love us that we’re (that is the world at large) still here.
April 14th, 2007 at 6:51 am
Well if you want institutionalised paedophilia/child abuse and even abuse of women under a religious cloak, try Islam.
When some commentators see a convergence between “progressive” agendas and that of Islamists, they have plenty of ammo. Moves to lower age of consent/age of marriage in Australia for example, have been supported by gay lobby and certain sectors of the Muslim community, and behind the gay lobby are always more…
April 14th, 2007 at 10:08 am
Hey Rev….when talking about Deb are you speaking of Deb is that Deb Hirsch.
Emma I am glad to hear the exodus thing has moved on from what it once was…but what I would like to hear from groups like this who have made mistakes in the past is an achnowledgement of thoes mistakes. It’s not enough to laugh and say, “no one thinks like that anymore” without publicly saying. you know what, with the best of intentions some people were really stuffed up by what we did and we apologise.
I think this is so true. I’m currenly collecting statements from former leaders of exgay programs so if you know of any please let me know.
From the people I’ve been in contact with here is Australia there is a bit of a move away from the you can become ‘heterosexual’ line….but from what I read of whats happening in the US it is still miliatant and political.
I’ll look forward to reading your review Em….and finding out who the review is for.
April 14th, 2007 at 10:12 am
Yes, Deb Hirsch is a close friend of mine, and we have been in conversation about this thread.
rev
April 14th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
mn…I know where you’re coming from but sometimes things are presented as over-simplified (this has been my experience ) and I find this stops debate, or it stops peole thinking through issues for themselves.
The homosexual issue is a touch one, I don’t think it is so simple as saying “the Bible says its wrong” and if you do read that stuff on the website you might find some interesting stuff (or you may completely disagree!) After all, the Bible also says slavery is OK too.
I don’t want to see evil turned into good either, and I don’t want to devlaue Bible truths so that they’re worthless…but again, I just can’t come at being the one to say to my friends who have been ina gay monogomous relatinship for the past 13 years and consider themselves married…you guys are sinning and turn or burn…you know.
April 14th, 2007 at 1:57 pm
hey Rev……i’ve been hearing good things about her and will be meeting up shortly I trust.
April 14th, 2007 at 2:02 pm
Hey Mn
you will find sooooooooooo much stuff on the internet that will help understand the verses some christians assume are speaking about ‘homosexuality’.
I’ve listed several of the ones that I think are good on our Freedom 2 b(e) site that i’m sure you’ll find helpful.
http://www.freedom2b.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3058
there are also a lot of books about it but you wont find them at Koorong….hehe
April 14th, 2007 at 2:04 pm
then of course you can always google ‘gay christian’……you will be overwhelmed
April 14th, 2007 at 5:49 pm
MN…
I agree that dealing with things wrongly may and may not be the same as dealing with them simply - however I think that when dealing with a collection of texts that has been written over centuries, even thousands of years (don’t have a time line in front of me right now and can’t remember it!), dealing with things simply is nigh on impossible. It’s also difficult to deal with things because human nature is complex. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, I think that by trying to deal with things simply we ignore the fact that God is ultimately unknowable. I actually believe that as the word of God, we should have more respect for the Bible than to try and whittle it down to a simple set of rules, which is what I feel a lot of Christians try to do.
Let’s take the creation stories as an example - we’ve got two different traditions, which when read “simply” might appear to conflict. There’s the complexity added by the fact that they stem from two different traditions, which we then see developed in other books. These are ancient creation stories - they *can* be presented simply, as they often are in children’s books, but when we are adults we should explore them more deeply, and not try to present them as a children’s story, for to do so is to miss so much of the beauty they have to offer.
Yes, every generation tries to use theology to justify self interest - but Christians and their theology has also been one of the driving forces behind the abolition of apartheid, the Crusads, slavery, etc etc! You might be sick of people trying to turn evil into good, and especially Christians - but so am I! I am tired of Christians saying that the Bible’s simple, and that all you have to do to get into Heaven is to rock up at church on Sunday morning, that things like the poor are just subsidiary to that. I’m sick of people watering down the beautiful, amazing complexity of the Bible into some nice bedtime story, and turning God into some sort of benevolent grandfatherly figure, a kind of omnipotent Santa Claus.
Now if you think that’s being elitist, and condescending, and bullshit, and if you’re going to throw that kind of language in my direction, then I’ll disappear from this discussion really quickly - quite frankly, I’m sick of people behaving in cyberspace in a manner they wouldn’t elsewhere.
April 14th, 2007 at 6:21 pm
i think bullying is a condition that happens not just in the playground but also in the corporate world Bec and is evident in cyberspace as well. its a heterosexual male thing (dare I generalise)
they have an innate power to be a benevolant king loved by thier people but unfortunatley for some men it remain the high chair behaviour of throwing food around or in cyberspace ……..insults.
April 14th, 2007 at 6:32 pm
Bec
“I am tired of Christians saying that the Bible’s simple, and that all you have to do to get into Heaven is to rock up at church on Sunday morning, that things like the poor are just subsidiary to that. I’m sick of people watering down the beautiful, amazing complexity of the Bible into some nice bedtime story, and turning God into some sort of benevolent grandfatherly figure, a kind of omnipotent Santa Claus.”
I take it that is what you are suggesting I’m doing - funny I don’t recall having made any of those sorts of statements above.
The other funny thing for a website devoted exploring emerging church issues which is predicated on anyone and everyone participating and being able to have input, I come across a remarkable number of posts responding to people with views such as myself as not understanding the cultural issues, the Hebrew and Greek etc etc. Tell me that for the majority of Christians this by definition is not excluding, and in practical terms elitist. I accept that there is much to learn, but sometimes the trees just get in the way of the forest.
There is much in the Bible that highlights our “wisdom” as being pointless folly - Ecclesiastes is the master text on this:
Vanity of vanity yea all is vanity; there is nothing new under the sun; and
The words of the wise are like goads, their collected sayings like firmly embedded nails—given by one Shepherd. Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them. Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.
Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.
For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.
Now I don’t believe in throwing out your brains when you become a Christian, but neither do I believe you have be a theologian or a scholar of the ancients. On the one hand you want to include and care for the poor which I fully agree with, but much of the discussions I read on here would be useless to them.
As for the language I’m sorry if that offends you but I have seen some pretty robust conversations on here. I thought most people could deal with it I thought was pretty mild compared to what I have seen at some points.
And as far as I am concerned your original response was simply blowing me off, which I at my age am not inclined to sit quietly and take anymore.
Cheers
MN
April 14th, 2007 at 6:56 pm
Hey bro, this may not be my place in this discussion but I will say I understand what you are saying.
My thoughts are this however. If we are going to simplify things, then we need to do so based on Jesus. If you are going to look at Paul, then we need to begin to understand theology, and the relationship between Paul and the Gospels.
And in our simple readings of the good Samaritan, and Lazarous, and the sheep and the goats we are called to love, and care for everyone, irrespective of their sins. And we are to call people to a deeper following of Jesus. But if we are going to then go into the epistles and start looking at behaviours, and excluding people, we must make the effort to understand exactly what Paul is saying and to whom. And this is not made any easier by inadequate translations, so more study becomes necessary.
Hope that helps a bit, if not, just say shut up rev
rev
April 14th, 2007 at 7:31 pm
Hi Rev
No I have no problem with your input and appreciate it.
I respond in two ways:
1. At no point have I made any comments that are seeking to exclude anybody - at all.
2. I am not against study - it is a good thing - and yes Jesus is the cornerstone. I understand your point about hermeneutics but I see a lot of what would be called in literary criticism circles authorial and intentional fallacies that passes for hermeneutics. While I agree to a large extent that an understanding of theology is helpful and the need to understand the relationship between the parts, I see the Bible as one large text made up of many sub-texts which stand in their own right - but predominantly one large text - being in simplistic terms again - the inspired word of God - if it ain’t that its nothing - He is the same yesterday today forever. Hence cultural context may change, but God doesn’t and there is a consistent thread running right through whether it be Genesis, Isaiah, the minor prophets, the Gospels, the Epistles whatever. I am more interested in that - the culture thing is necessary and helpful, but I wonder how many red herrings lie therein as well, because there is nothing new under the sun - no matter what we might think.
Now again I am not a theologian, but neither am I unschooled or inexperienced in the faith - but it is almost like to have a discussion on this website at times almost demands that I have to be one or become one if I want to make an argument that is acknowledged or more basely support my ego. Now that says something about me, but it also says something about the nature of the other conversants as well.
Again through all of that at no time have I been what I would consider to be exclusionary or suggesting that people be excluded, although some may interpret that as being the case.
Cheers
MN