more from Mike Frost
Some more notes from Forge National Summit - Dangerous Stories 2
mike frost - last session
Forge events are like a gathering of the clan, it is great to be among family.
Luke 14 - Eating with the Pharisees
Henri Neuwen talks about reaching out.
One of the movements, if we are serious about following in the footsteps of Jesus, is about moving from hostis to hospis, that is hostility to hospitality. Our world is governed by hostis. Suspicion, anxiety, and anger all impinge on your own life. It is standard operating procedure for our society. Hostis guards one’s own space at the expense of others. We need to fashion it into the space of others and allow them to truly be themselves and what God intended them to be in the first place.
Daryl Gardiner spoke about the sanitised Jesus of contemporary Christianity versus dirty Jesus of the Bible. The presentation of a sanitised Jesus is hostis. It is what the world expects and involves a vengeful and an excluding God. The dirty Jesus is the hospice Jesus, who fashions space in which people might blossom and grow.
We need to recommit ourselves to the process, to the costly and hard work of hospis.
Luke 14:1 ¶ One Sabbath, when Jesus went to eat in the house of a prominent Pharisee, he was being carefully watched.
Luke 14:2 There in front of him was a man suffering from dropsy.
Luke 14:3 Jesus asked the Pharisees and experts in the law, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath or not?”
Luke 14:4 But they remained silent. So taking hold of the man, he healed him and sent him away.
Luke 14:5 ¶ Then he asked them, “If one of you has a son or an ox that falls into a well on the Sabbath day, will you not immediately pull him out?”
Luke 14:6 And they had nothing to say.
Back in those days, when the Pharisee threw open the gates to invited guests, it was not unusual that if someone snuck in when all the guests invited arrived, that the host was obliged to feed them. These uninvited freeloaders were called the umbra, the shadow, as they shadowed the invited guests.
One day I was at a casino, and was looking around because I had never been in there before. I approached the High Rollers room, but was prevented from entering by the bouncers there. Just then, a group of people came in from behind me. And they were asked whether they were part of Uncle Cedric’s party, they said yes, and I also nodded and went in. I became one of the umbra. and shadowed the others inside. It was nice inside, you got good food but eventually I left after I had looked around.
In another story, Jesus was invited to Simon’s place. And there was a woman who was an umbra at the party. She slipped in, and she was a freeloader. All the guests were kissed and had their feet washed. But at that party, Jesus was treated as an umbra even though he was an invited guest. The woman eventually kissed his feet and washed it for him.
There is lots of evidence that Jesus was often an umbra at parties, one of those that lurks at kitchen door.
In this story, Luke 13, it says that the Pharisees and lawyers were watching him closely. Looking to criticise him, an example of hostis.
1. Jesus, the shadow man, always prefers people over religion.
There are laws and requirements that people need to follow. One of those were the adherence to the sabbath. Now, there were many legitimate reasons to keep the sabbath. But there were also reasons in this situation where adherence goes against the intent of the sabbath.
Jesus highlights the ridiculous extent to which adherence to sabbath would lead.
Many in the emerging church find they are set free from the rules of traditional church rituals, but then get caught up in the paraphilia of what is emerging church. Don’t get too busy to not engage with the umbra, or healing the sick because I spent too much time in the maintanence of religious practice. You can spend so much time trying to put on something cool, and miss out on spending time with people. I recently asked clergy how much time they had for the umbra in their lives? How much does maintaining what they do suck us from the umbra of our situation?
1stly, people not religion.
2ndly, when he noticed the seating pattern. If you invite Jesus to dinner and he says he wants to tell a story, you know you are in trouble.
Luke 14:7 ¶ When he noticed how the guests picked the places of honor at the table, he told them this parable:
Luke 14:8 “When someone invites you to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for a person more distinguished than you may have been invited.
Luke 14:9 If so, the host who invited both of you will come and say to you, ‘Give this man your seat.’ Then, humiliated, you will have to take the least important place.
Luke 14:10 But when you are invited, take the lowest place, so that when your host comes, he will say to you, ‘Friend, move up to a better place.’ Then you will be honored in the presence of all your fellow guests.
Luke 14:11 For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
Jesus said wouldn’t it be embarrassing if you had to be moved down, after having put yourself in a more important position than you should. It sounds like he’s giving practical dinner party etiquette. He turn hostis into hospis by preferring humility to personal honour. Additionally, when you start at the bottom, you have a completely different perspective of any situation.
I can’t tell you how the church has fashioned hierarchy in so many areas, such as in conferences. Can you see Jesus doing that?
Ash Barker talks about the film “Titanic”. Jack is a shadow person on the Titanic. He’s not meant to be on the ship, and through a quirk of circumstance, he meets Rose. He then takes her under and opens her eyes to a much different vision of the world than if she had stayed above.
That’s what Jesus does for us. Come with me into the steerage, and the mess and music… You will see something the likes that you have never seen before.
In Maryborough, a Victorian country town, there lived a guy with a mental disability called Wal Richards. He sat on the main intersection and said hello to everyone that went passed, and that’s all anyone thought he would be capable of doing for the rest of his life. When he was a teenager, someone gave him camera. He turned up to every wedding in Maryborough and photographed, uninvited. He would jump into the bridal car, uninvited, and just get in the way of things. He was considered a nuisance to the people. People avoided putting announcements about their weddings in the local paper in order to make sure he wasn’t there. He couldn’t drive, so he rode a dragster pushbike to photograph the weddings. When he died, they were surprised to find at his house hundred and hundreds of photos. People assumed he didn’t have film in his camera. And these photos showed an entirely different perspective of the town’s weddings than any of the professional photographers did. Not all of them were in focus, but after he died - the city ran a photography exhbition of his best photos. In the printed guide to the exhibition, it said “He was a gift to the town and he had shown us in a way that we never ever would had seen.”
Don’t tell me you are a missional church unless you have gone to the bottom of the table and helped people see things they can’t see themselves.
When we, as conference, sent out Alan, I saw a united tribe. My wife saw the same scene but said she saw a leadership without women. In male dominated circles, it is women who have a vision that the men can’t see.
Get out. Take your camera and photograph the world as it is seen at the foot of the table. Prefer people over religion, and prefer humility over honour.
Thirdly:
Luke 14:12 Then Jesus said to his host, “When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid.
Luke 14:13 But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,
Luke 14:14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
This is logical. Invite those to the table that can’t repay you. This is a key plank of hospis. We should practice a ferocious form of hospitality.
In “Hotel Rwanda”, the main character as a hutu creates space and practices hospitality to Tutsis. There was nothing physically stopping death squads walking into the hotel except for one man’s devotion to hospitality, one man’s moral integrity. He does anything he can to stop them.
We are called to invite those who can’t, the marginalised, the shunned and the poor. The merging church is not about cooler worship, or pissed-off and cynical evangelicals.
Alan once said that hopefully we will look back and say that at the end of the 20th century, at the turn of the 21st century, there was the decline of the church, but when the fathers and mothers embraced mission as their defining purpose and were propelled out and went to the margins, they turned the tide.
I don’t want them to look back and say, yeah there was a group of cranky evangelical - they were lazy and self-focussed and wanted things their way, and something flared up. But all it did was create a little blip in the declining trend of the church.
Those people…
preferred people over religion;
launched people that practised humility over honour - they were selfless, they were generous, and denied their own self-interest.
they moved out like a wave of shadow people, and turned the hostis of Australian culture into the hospis of Jesus.
Do you want to be part of a movement that isn’t about new innovative structures, new worships, etc, but follows the shadow man to the bottom of the table to share lives and photographed the umbra.
We need to embrace dangerous Christian disciplines, selfless generosity, and build spiritual muscle. Stories will kick off something, but it is our discipline that will be the dangerous impact on this wide brown land.
Let us go and love, to serve and empty ourselves into the lives of others, the umbra, the lurkers of kitchen doors, and the hungry ones. And all because we follow the most marvellous umbra of all.
April 14th, 2007 at 7:38 pm
Have just the transcript of the Tony & Peggy Campolo discussed. Very impressive and thought provoking.
April 14th, 2007 at 7:47 pm
Rev
just to clarify…
I do think that the practice of homsexuality is sin - however I have had gay friends, and as others had a pederast in one of my old churches under care. All my friends unfortunately are sinners, and alas so am I - so I can’t avoid them really.
I am also working thru issues around the role of women in church and gender roles generally. My views are pretty definite, but at the same time I am open to further information, and while wanting robust conversation, don’t push it too hard in a practical sense, cause it won’t achieve much.
I don’t consider holding these views as functioning in a way to exclude people. I think I would lack integrity if I didn’t put those and sat on them instead cause I might cop shit. I have put some scenarios about the issues involved and asked a couple of straight questions to seek information. Again I don’t see this being excluding.
We are all suffering from sin in some shape or form, so I don’t see that in most instances excluding people actually helps, except as Jesus said…Go and sin more - a challenge for all of us I think.
Cheers
MN
April 14th, 2007 at 7:52 pm
Yes I really liked the Tony/Peggy Campolo debate too. I think mostly it shows how those who do believe the practice of homosexuality is a sin - like mn here - and those who don’t - like avb I guess - can still find some common ground, it doesn’t have to be thie issue that divides the church…and those of us who aren’t sure can go back and do more thinking!
April 14th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
It’s a subject I have been pondering for quite a few years now. Probably about that last 8 years when a number of very interesting and complex people who just happened to identify as homosexual or lesbian - have drifted into and out of my life. I found it very difficult and in some cases impossible to identify myself as christian- once when I did - the exchange went something like this…….” I go to church and I am what you would call a christian” “you are not” - “yes I am” - “no your not your kidding” “yes I am, I am not kidding” “ok what kind of christian are you”, “I guess I would be a fundamentalist pentecostal (I was at the time)”- this was greeted with hales and hales of laughter “you are NOT” “no really I am” - “I wouldn’t have believed it you seem so normal” sigh…..
Somtimes I think I been a positive, other times a dismal failure-
April 14th, 2007 at 9:16 pm
MN, it seemed to me that you pulled out a bit of substantial theological mumbo jumbo of your own in that first paragraph
I believe as you do that the practice of homosexual sex is a sin. Atleast I believe that at this time, but I understand that there it is not as cut and dried as most would make it sound. In my understanding it revolves around one new testament scripture, and old testament scriptures that are often considered no longer binding. So building a case that divides Christianity on one verse, seems a bit much.
Then I come to the sermon on the mount, and many other of Jesus’ messages, and I see that it is quite envogue to rationalize away Jesus commands to love your enemy, to not store up treasure for yourselves, to care for those in prison, those that are ill, those that are poor and marginalized. These Christian people change the meaning, and wiggle around these teachings of Jesus, and are not only approved, but are often exalted. Paul talks about people preaching to itchy ears. But we don’t condemn them. Issues of social justice are mentioned in the scriptures almost 2,000 times, and there are ten verses on homosexuality (and many of them are contested translations) yet we endorse and support Christians the say make sure you have a good retirement fund, some investments, leave a great retirement for your children and live comfortably and in abundance, while dividing churches and denominations over the issue of homosexuality.
Now, the question I have is why do we allow heresy when it comes to what you do with your wallet, but not when it comes to what you do with your penis? This really bothers me. So why do those that take scripture so literally when it talks about homosexuality, and refuse to even look at the actual definitions of words, and the cultural context that Paul is speaking into, completely do the sidestep around Jesus very specific commands?
If we are looking at things simply, I see no basis for homosexual sex, nor materialism, nor gossip, nor war, nor division.
So what do we do?
rev
April 14th, 2007 at 10:28 pm
Hi Daisy…..did you know you can listen to Tony & Peggy…….that must have been some transcript.
http://www.gaychristian.net/campolos.php
They are others say they are on either side of the fence…..I actually have my doubts. I think they are just playing good cop bad cop. Tony is too much of a loving guy and liberal to hold a conservative view like ‘homosexuality is sin’.
What they demostrate perfectly however is how you can hold two beliefs in the one place and it not be divisive. The church has found it hard to find a space of questioning unfortunlatley. That has meant they held on to certain beliefs for centuries…untill it was so dam obvious that just accepted it quietly. no apology……no we were wrong……..just slowly slipped the new understanding in the door and smiled.
eg. Galileo
What they do demons
April 14th, 2007 at 10:34 pm
Hey daisy…….funny thing…….when any of my former friends or christian leaders sit down and actually take some time to hear my story, ask questions they find out how ‘normal’ I am as well. Their previous concept was all homosexuals are perverts, child molesters, drug takers and have at least three sex partners a night. I’ve been in the gay scene for 15 years and never met anyone of that description.
After our conversation a wall has begun to fall away…..and one thing i usually walk away with is their respect.
April 14th, 2007 at 10:45 pm
Hey Mn…..there is a graciousness in your posts and you mentioned one of my favourite words ‘integrity’. I like you. i’m sure you’ll be able to move on from some of the strictures……I had a bit of a chuckle when you said. I am also working thru issues around the role of women in church and gender roles generally.
Here is another funny thing though.
Whilst I was a high profile preacher I presented and image that was false. I said one thing but was actually another. I had no integrity.
now, as an out openly gay man, for the frist time in my life I feel like I have integrity. There is nothing to hide, nothing to be ashamed of. I can face my opponents and confidently say…..I have never in my life felt more like i am totally living the will of God for my life.
April 14th, 2007 at 10:48 pm
Rev
I agree with you about which para I think you mean…kinda proves the point really :)… from my lit theory days at Uni….too long ago to remember. If its the other para - sorry Freudian slip.
Incidentally I am preparing for my retirement…I think its just good management really and don’t see it as heresy.
But to your substantive points…
Why do people (me included if you like) respond to homosexuality the way they do?
Well for one thing, discussions about sliding scales apart, if you’re not you’re not. Simplistic explanation…it just goes against God’s natural order and people react that way. If I was an evolutionist I’d say homosexuals were evolutionary deadends - I call my middle aged bachelor friend that and he agrees with me - he hates marriage and kids.
But I’m not an evolutionist nor that cold either…just enjoy taking other people’s logic to the full extent. And as stated previously am not consciously seeking to exclude people - have stated on other posts that homosexualtiy does not form a barrier to salvation.
I tbink an answer to your question is homosexuality has not been generally been accepted within mainstream societies (I’m sure some could point some exceptions). But certainly it is only just being “accepted” into our society over the last 20 years or so, and as such remains one of the last social thresholds or mores to cross. It remains for many very confronting.
Avarice, greed and selfishness and what we do with our wallets however is much more socially accepted. Now I don’t think there is anything wrong with being rich, but the mark of a society which I think obtains favour in God’s sight are those that look after the widows, fatherless, poor, downtrodden etc. God consistently made this point throughout the Old and New Testaments. I think we would agree God is most unhappy where we don’t honour this charge.
In a sense from a tactical point of view you could argue that its easier to argue against homosexuality because we are only really crossing the threshold now - its still an easy target if you like to be seen to be doing something (totally rubbish argument that that is) and also of differentiation (pharisee and publican) , whereas greed and selfishness with our money and resources is institutionalised throughout humanity, much more entrenched, and therefore harder to deal with.
I like you see no bases for a lot of things in our world, and frequently wonder how to respond - what can I do?
From what I read Rev I think you’re doing what you can and working out your own salvation. I think I’m a bit behind in that respect.
One answer might be to sell the house, downsize, and do with less. There is a good argument for that, but personally I can’t come at that either at all or yet - I am not sure that this what God requires of me. Its tempting to generally drop the head and forget it, but Paul also says it is an endurance race and the prize goes to those who persist - and anyway - I can’t deny God, and He certainly hasn’t denied me. So for me it becomes about letting God in more, and trying to live/work with my workmates and neighbours in such a way that draws attention to Christ. I suppose trite but its the best I can do at the moment. Conversation here and with my other friends are also a way of working through that I guess and spurring one another on.
Cheers
MN
April 14th, 2007 at 10:53 pm
AVB7
appreciate your comments. I won’t try and kid you and say that I don’t find dealing with homosexuality generally a very uncomfortable subject for may be both right and wrong reasons.
You might be surprised at what that “working thru gender issues” will be associated with - but I’ll leave that one there.
Each of us has to work these things out before God. I am looking forward to when its all done.
Cheers
MN
April 15th, 2007 at 7:47 am
I appreciate your honesty mn, I actually believe God does call you to do that, I also believe that he will walk with you everyday whether you drag your feet or not. Thanks for the discussion, and come visit my blog once and a while.
rev
April 15th, 2007 at 5:38 pm
Try this for a view on Christians and sexuality.
http://images.ucomics.com/comics/db/2007/db070415.gif
April 15th, 2007 at 6:57 pm
MN,
Love your post at 99. I not only agree with you, but admire your honesty.
Re an earlier post – you referred to my saying:
“I am tired of Christians saying that the Bible’s simple, and that all you have to do to get into Heaven is to rock up at church on Sunday morning, that things like the poor are just subsidiary to that. I’m sick of people watering down the beautiful, amazing complexity of the Bible into some nice bedtime story, and turning God into some sort of benevolent grandfatherly figure, a kind of omnipotent Santa Claus.”
Your response: I take it that is what you are suggesting I’m doing - funny I don’t recall having made any of those sorts of statements above.
**** No, that’s not what I meant at all. In fact, you point out yourself that you don’t make any of the sorts of statements I describe. I was not accusing you of these things, but rather trying to explain why it is that I don’t think these things can be, or should be, explained in simple terms.
As for my original post “blowing you off”, I’ve already tried to explain that this was not my intention – I was just trying to point out that it’s a complex issue, and an issue that a “simple” post just won’t do justice to.
I understand your point about education, study etc. I’ve dabbled in a bit of theological study, but unless I experience some kind of call which I haven’t to date, I don’t think I’ll ever be able to delve into theology to the extent that I do law. Also, in the contexts in which I work overseas, a lot of people are illiterate, and sometimes not even allowed (by village chiefs) to have their own Bibles (interesting eh? But that’s another discussion!)
However, I don’t agree that most of the discussions here would be “useless” to the poor, and my reasons for that are based entirely on my experiences with the poor. At the church I was a part of back in Melbourne, some of the most well-read people were those you might call “the poor”. We had plenty of people who had formally studied (and even taught) theology in our community, but some of the most well-read people were not the tertiary-educated professionals like me, but “the poor”…many often had more time, and often more commitment, to spend hours reading their Bibles. “They” often put me to shame as far as their general knowledge of history, theology etc went.
By the way, in the interests of transparency, here’s my story and where I’m at now (I stress the “now”!!):
I was raised in both the church and around people who were gay (though I didn’t realise it at the time). I’m happy to share more via email if you wish. Suffice to say that I didn’t really think about this issue a great deal until I was older and became involved in fairly conservative Christian groups. I’ve shared this on Signposts in the past, but to summarise, I was involved in pretty conservative pentecostal student groups, very liberal Christian groups, and quite radical political groups. I was crossing a whole bunch of boundaries, and it was a pretty confusing time to say the least (I still do it today…I just think I’m a little bit more grounded so it doesn’t really get to me as much!) Anyway, because of this I did a lot of reading on a whole bunch of issues, including homosexuality and glossolalia (!!) Anyway, my only conclusion on the former was that it was a really complicated issue, and there seemed to be some pretty good theology on both sides of the fence, as well as some pretty bad theology on both sides of the fence. In light of that, I felt I should defer to what I understand to be the nature of God: all-loving, all-powerful, and definitely big enough to forgive us all as long as we were genuinely seeking Him.
So, at this point in time, I don’t believe that the practice of homosexuality is a sin, however like the Rev, I’d hasten to add I believe this at this time, and I understand that it might not be as cut and dried as most would make it sound (either those who think it’s a sin, or those that don’t). I’ll probably do some extensive reading and study on the issue some time in the future, but right now it’s not a priority for me. I don’t feel that I need to have a firm stand on that specific issue, and I haven’t felt that God has been telling me otherwise. I don’t think I can do any more than continually to seek God’s will and guidance on these issues, and I really do try to do that.
None of this means that I think that holding the belief that homosexual sex is wrong, and being loving and supportive of people who engage in homosexual sex, are incompatible. I don’t, and again this is because of my own personal experience – I’m part of both Christian and non-Christian communities where people have a variety of beliefs and engage in a variety of practices, and we all get along fine. Why? Because it’s a cliché, but a true one, that love conquers all.
April 15th, 2007 at 7:28 pm
Bec
as a friend pointed out this morning (he preached) Jesus won the battle not by being distracted by Lucifer or thinking that He could short cut things, but by listening to the Father - when times were good and especially when all other things were stripped away - the temptations in the wilderness/desert (Luke 4). I think Rev has been putting something similar.
These issues I think are very important (the ones we’ve been discussing), but there are more important (and pervasive) ones as Rev (and my friend) highlighted, and one even more important which is to keep listening to the Spirit and not get distracted, even when times are tough. Our salvation is built on Jesus obedience and focussed attention on His Father. I hear that you are trying to do that. Peace sister. If our focus is on Him He will use it for His own purposes and we will laugh about it later.
Cheers
MN