as a friend pointed out this morning (he preached) Jesus won the battle not by being distracted by Lucifer or thinking that He could short cut things, but by listening to the Father - when times were good and especially when all other things were stripped away - the temptations in the wilderness/desert (Luke 4). I think Rev has been putting something similar.

These issues I think are very important (the ones we’ve been discussing), but there are more important (and pervasive) ones as Rev (and my friend) highlighted, and one even more important which is to keep listening to the Spirit and not get distracted, even when times are tough. Our salvation is built on Jesus obedience and focussed attention on His Father. I hear that you are trying to do that. Peace sister. If our focus is on Him He will use it for His own purposes and we will laugh about it later.

Cheers

MN

Love your post at 99. I not only agree with you, but admire your honesty.

Re an earlier post – you referred to my saying:

“I am tired of Christians saying that the Bible’s simple, and that all you have to do to get into Heaven is to rock up at church on Sunday morning, that things like the poor are just subsidiary to that. I’m sick of people watering down the beautiful, amazing complexity of the Bible into some nice bedtime story, and turning God into some sort of benevolent grandfatherly figure, a kind of omnipotent Santa Claus.”

Your response: I take it that is what you are suggesting I’m doing - funny I don’t recall having made any of those sorts of statements above.

**** No, that’s not what I meant at all. In fact, you point out yourself that you don’t make any of the sorts of statements I describe. I was not accusing you of these things, but rather trying to explain why it is that I don’t think these things can be, or should be, explained in simple terms.

As for my original post “blowing you off”, I’ve already tried to explain that this was not my intention – I was just trying to point out that it’s a complex issue, and an issue that a “simple” post just won’t do justice to.

I understand your point about education, study etc. I’ve dabbled in a bit of theological study, but unless I experience some kind of call which I haven’t to date, I don’t think I’ll ever be able to delve into theology to the extent that I do law. Also, in the contexts in which I work overseas, a lot of people are illiterate, and sometimes not even allowed (by village chiefs) to have their own Bibles (interesting eh? But that’s another discussion!)

However, I don’t agree that most of the discussions here would be “useless” to the poor, and my reasons for that are based entirely on my experiences with the poor. At the church I was a part of back in Melbourne, some of the most well-read people were those you might call “the poor”. We had plenty of people who had formally studied (and even taught) theology in our community, but some of the most well-read people were not the tertiary-educated professionals like me, but “the poor”…many often had more time, and often more commitment, to spend hours reading their Bibles. “They” often put me to shame as far as their general knowledge of history, theology etc went.

By the way, in the interests of transparency, here’s my story and where I’m at now (I stress the “now”!!):

I was raised in both the church and around people who were gay (though I didn’t realise it at the time). I’m happy to share more via email if you wish. Suffice to say that I didn’t really think about this issue a great deal until I was older and became involved in fairly conservative Christian groups. I’ve shared this on Signposts in the past, but to summarise, I was involved in pretty conservative pentecostal student groups, very liberal Christian groups, and quite radical political groups. I was crossing a whole bunch of boundaries, and it was a pretty confusing time to say the least (I still do it today…I just think I’m a little bit more grounded so it doesn’t really get to me as much!) Anyway, because of this I did a lot of reading on a whole bunch of issues, including homosexuality and glossolalia (!!) Anyway, my only conclusion on the former was that it was a really complicated issue, and there seemed to be some pretty good theology on both sides of the fence, as well as some pretty bad theology on both sides of the fence. In light of that, I felt I should defer to what I understand to be the nature of God: all-loving, all-powerful, and definitely big enough to forgive us all as long as we were genuinely seeking Him.

So, at this point in time, I don’t believe that the practice of homosexuality is a sin, however like the Rev, I’d hasten to add I believe this at this time, and I understand that it might not be as cut and dried as most would make it sound (either those who think it’s a sin, or those that don’t). I’ll probably do some extensive reading and study on the issue some time in the future, but right now it’s not a priority for me. I don’t feel that I need to have a firm stand on that specific issue, and I haven’t felt that God has been telling me otherwise. I don’t think I can do any more than continually to seek God’s will and guidance on these issues, and I really do try to do that.

None of this means that I think that holding the belief that homosexual sex is wrong, and being loving and supportive of people who engage in homosexual sex, are incompatible. I don’t, and again this is because of my own personal experience – I’m part of both Christian and non-Christian communities where people have a variety of beliefs and engage in a variety of practices, and we all get along fine. Why? Because it’s a cliché, but a true one, that love conquers all.

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/db/2007/db070415.gif

rev

appreciate your comments. I won’t try and kid you and say that I don’t find dealing with homosexuality generally a very uncomfortable subject for may be both right and wrong reasons.

You might be surprised at what that “working thru gender issues” will be associated with - but I’ll leave that one there.

Each of us has to work these things out before God. I am looking forward to when its all done.

Cheers

MN

I agree with you about which para I think you mean…kinda proves the point really :)… from my lit theory days at Uni….too long ago to remember. If its the other para - sorry Freudian slip.

Incidentally I am preparing for my retirement…I think its just good management really and don’t see it as heresy.

But to your substantive points…

Why do people (me included if you like) respond to homosexuality the way they do?

Well for one thing, discussions about sliding scales apart, if you’re not you’re not. Simplistic explanation…it just goes against God’s natural order and people react that way. If I was an evolutionist I’d say homosexuals were evolutionary deadends - I call my middle aged bachelor friend that and he agrees with me - he hates marriage and kids.

But I’m not an evolutionist nor that cold either…just enjoy taking other people’s logic to the full extent. And as stated previously am not consciously seeking to exclude people - have stated on other posts that homosexualtiy does not form a barrier to salvation.

I tbink an answer to your question is homosexuality has not been generally been accepted within mainstream societies (I’m sure some could point some exceptions). But certainly it is only just being “accepted” into our society over the last 20 years or so, and as such remains one of the last social thresholds or mores to cross. It remains for many very confronting.

Avarice, greed and selfishness and what we do with our wallets however is much more socially accepted. Now I don’t think there is anything wrong with being rich, but the mark of a society which I think obtains favour in God’s sight are those that look after the widows, fatherless, poor, downtrodden etc. God consistently made this point throughout the Old and New Testaments. I think we would agree God is most unhappy where we don’t honour this charge.

In a sense from a tactical point of view you could argue that its easier to argue against homosexuality because we are only really crossing the threshold now - its still an easy target if you like to be seen to be doing something (totally rubbish argument that that is) and also of differentiation (pharisee and publican) , whereas greed and selfishness with our money and resources is institutionalised throughout humanity, much more entrenched, and therefore harder to deal with.

I like you see no bases for a lot of things in our world, and frequently wonder how to respond - what can I do?

From what I read Rev I think you’re doing what you can and working out your own salvation. I think I’m a bit behind in that respect.

One answer might be to sell the house, downsize, and do with less. There is a good argument for that, but personally I can’t come at that either at all or yet - I am not sure that this what God requires of me. Its tempting to generally drop the head and forget it, but Paul also says it is an endurance race and the prize goes to those who persist - and anyway - I can’t deny God, and He certainly hasn’t denied me. So for me it becomes about letting God in more, and trying to live/work with my workmates and neighbours in such a way that draws attention to Christ. I suppose trite but its the best I can do at the moment. Conversation here and with my other friends are also a way of working through that I guess and spurring one another on.

Cheers

MN

Here is another funny thing though.

Whilst I was a high profile preacher I presented and image that was false. I said one thing but was actually another. I had no integrity.

now, as an out openly gay man, for the frist time in my life I feel like I have integrity. There is nothing to hide, nothing to be ashamed of. I can face my opponents and confidently say…..I have never in my life felt more like i am totally living the will of God for my life.

After our conversation a wall has begun to fall away…..and one thing i usually walk away with is their respect.

http://www.gaychristian.net/campolos.php

They are others say they are on either side of the fence…..I actually have my doubts. I think they are just playing good cop bad cop. Tony is too much of a loving guy and liberal to hold a conservative view like ‘homosexuality is sin’.

What they demostrate perfectly however is how you can hold two beliefs in the one place and it not be divisive. The church has found it hard to find a space of questioning unfortunlatley. That has meant they held on to certain beliefs for centuries…untill it was so dam obvious that just accepted it quietly. no apology……no we were wrong……..just slowly slipped the new understanding in the door and smiled.

eg. Galileo

What they do demons

I believe as you do that the practice of homosexual sex is a sin. Atleast I believe that at this time, but I understand that there it is not as cut and dried as most would make it sound. In my understanding it revolves around one new testament scripture, and old testament scriptures that are often considered no longer binding. So building a case that divides Christianity on one verse, seems a bit much.

Then I come to the sermon on the mount, and many other of Jesus’ messages, and I see that it is quite envogue to rationalize away Jesus commands to love your enemy, to not store up treasure for yourselves, to care for those in prison, those that are ill, those that are poor and marginalized. These Christian people change the meaning, and wiggle around these teachings of Jesus, and are not only approved, but are often exalted. Paul talks about people preaching to itchy ears. But we don’t condemn them. Issues of social justice are mentioned in the scriptures almost 2,000 times, and there are ten verses on homosexuality (and many of them are contested translations) yet we endorse and support Christians the say make sure you have a good retirement fund, some investments, leave a great retirement for your children and live comfortably and in abundance, while dividing churches and denominations over the issue of homosexuality.

Now, the question I have is why do we allow heresy when it comes to what you do with your wallet, but not when it comes to what you do with your penis? This really bothers me. So why do those that take scripture so literally when it talks about homosexuality, and refuse to even look at the actual definitions of words, and the cultural context that Paul is speaking into, completely do the sidestep around Jesus very specific commands?

If we are looking at things simply, I see no basis for homosexual sex, nor materialism, nor gossip, nor war, nor division.

So what do we do?

rev