Stats on pastors
prodigal Kiwi points out the following statistics on pastors of local churches:
· 80% of pastors say they have insufficient time with spouse and that ministry has a negative effect on their family.
· 40% report a serious conflict with a parishioner once a month.
· 33% say that being in ministry is an outright hazard to their family.
· 75% report they’ve had significant stress-related crisis at least once in their ministry.
· 58% of pastors indicate that their spouse needs to work either part time or full time to supplement the family income.
· 56% of pastors’ wives say they have no close friends.
· Pastors who work fewer than 50 hrs/week are 35% more likely to be terminated.
· 40% of pastors considered leaving the pastorate in the past three months.
Mmm, just what I need to read in my current frame of mind on my first week of holidays. Back to the garden 
Read more of Paul’s post here
April 13th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
Sounds like pastors enjoy the same work envirnoments as non pastors….
April 13th, 2007 at 5:28 pm
Mmm, I am not so sure.
I have worked in both environments and I think there are some significant differences in the paid ministry environment.
Here are some quick differences:
1. In my secular job (where I was more highly paid), I had one person who considered themselves (because they were) my boss. In ministry, there are heaps of people who consider themselves my boss and with all the expectations that this comes with.
2. In my secular job my private life was my own. In my paid ministry job I have not found this to be the case.
3. I don’t think in my secular job, that 56% of my collegue workers spouses would claim that they have no close friends. And in my secular job, there were little, if any, expectation on my spouse.
4. In my secular job, I knew when I was working and when I wasn’t. I have found that in ministry this is not so.
Please hear me: I am no listing the above to indicate that people working in secular jobs are not under heavy expectations and stress. Clearly they are! However, I have found that paid ministry holds some very unique stresses and you often don’t have the paid rewards to compensate (or at least in my denomination you don’t).
Thank God for a calling. You would never do it otherwise. And I will sense my calling by the second week of my holildays
April 13th, 2007 at 5:33 pm
What if you don’t Phil?
April 13th, 2007 at 5:38 pm
Don’t what?
April 13th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
Feel the call?
I’m guessing Phil will walk by faith, not unreasonably assuming God will call him out when it’s time to move on, with the same level of clarity he received when God called him in.
April 13th, 2007 at 6:35 pm
Oh. I get it. Sorry. You mean, if I don’t feel the call in my second week of holidays.
Well, if it doesn’t come back eventually. Then I resign and look for something else. Secular or otherwise.
April 13th, 2007 at 6:56 pm
I get what your saying phil; I have worked in the community welfare sector for a 24hr crisis service. Apart from expectation on my spouse the strain was fairly similar.
April 13th, 2007 at 9:03 pm
I’ll be poor Dan’s friend if she’s desperate!!!
April 13th, 2007 at 10:07 pm
Thanks Phil. About time we had some compassion on Signpost’s pondscum.
April 14th, 2007 at 9:54 am
Let’s not forget the tragic figure of Dan.
April 14th, 2007 at 10:57 am
Poor, poor, poor Dan… forced to work to supplement Phil’s meagre income… alone in the world…
April 14th, 2007 at 11:16 am
Gosh, what does it take to get a rise out of Dan these days? I know she’s working, doing a PhD, involved in the Kaleo order and goodness knows what else at Northern… but hey, she could give up sleep to respond to my provocations.
April 14th, 2007 at 6:47 pm
Its time to take a dep breath;not that I’m suggesting that pastors/preachers/bishops and bishopesses are not having it tough out there. But I’m not so certain about the research.
The first response to any stats should be where the hell did they come?who did them?how big was the sample etc etc.Now there’s an increasing stack of good research in Australia on the increasing tension between work and family.
But this one from “prodigal kiwi”,who snitched it from “krusekronicle”,who got it from “eugene cho”, who liftted it from “Todd Rhoades”, or vice versa, who stumbled across it in the Honolulu Advertiser of 18/11/06 in an article written by one Dr.Dan Chun,who had just returned from New Life Church(home of Ted Haggard).
The source of the stats appear to be from a 1993 book,updated in 2003,by H.B London and Neil Wiseman,”Pastors at Greater Risk”.
There is therefore no readily available info on who when where what the research might be about.
However,H B London, is vice president of Pastoral Ministtries, a Focus on the Family operation, run by one of the most powerful new right political and religious movers and shakers in the states, James Dobson. Dobson has been in difficulty in the past on misusing research on gay and lesbian issues, Londons site,The Parsonage” runs a neat recipe section(”we’re collecting recipes tried and true from pastor’s wives….”) and a call for everyone to celebrate “Clergy Appreciation Month” in October.
Just by the way HBL is one of the trinity counselling pastor ted H.
I think people should be very very careful about parroting and passing on “research” which could be suspect.
Why not move to Second Life churches? SEems to be less stress all the way round.(www.usatoday.com/tech/gaming/2007-04-01-second-life-religion_N.htm/ “Faithful build Second Life for religion online”)
April 15th, 2007 at 11:04 am
John Mark Ministries in Australia are one of the major organizations to work with ministries in and out of active ministry. http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/2049.htm
They would affirm similar stats.
ONE of the reasons ministers are the only profession, I believe, that cannot secure proper work cover in the same way as other professions. (you can have insurances etc.. but not the same as other similar professions) is that the government cannot establish when a minister stops being one. There is no boundary of finishing or completing a days work, in the sense of a minister is called and set apart (ordained in same cases) and so is always in that role. While they might not be DOING or PARTICAPTING in activities they are always on the job
The average minister is working 80-90 hours (a quote form a John Mark staff recently told me) and I would agree as I reflected with them how from the moment I wake, on my weekends, ministry work creeps into your mind phone calls come and crisis never lets up.
All professions have stress and pressure and I Don’t think ministry is the WORST but it is up there with one of the most pressured professions around. There will always be exceptions and dream placements however I still wonder if we truly understand wh there are thousands of ministers out of active ministry.
April 15th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
perhaps we should change the way we do church, sounds like a bit too much pressure? Maybe if we had smaller groups of people that were committed to caring for each other instead of relying on the “professional” and those with particular gifts and callings, could be set free from some of these burdens. What if…
rev
April 15th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
We lose our credibility when we toss around stats without thinking. And I wonder how many trainers,educators,emerging church leaders,etc etc are loosely tossing around such stats in conferences,workshops etc.
Check again kimhammo’s source(nearly five years old).
What does “1500 pastors leave the ministy each month due to moral failure,spiritual burnout,or contention in their churches” actually mean? Where is the source of such a stat?1500 out of how many?Is that .ooooooo5%,or 3% or 75% of what sample? Or “70% of pastors constantly fight depression”! How was depression defined in the study? Who did the study, as something like “depression” is complex and medical? Pissed off or the “black dog”? And I’d like to see the research design for the finding the “40% said they’d had an extra marital affair? Is “80% of pastors spouses who feel their spouse is overworked” any different from union officials,the CEO of Woolworths, or the local plumber? “70% of pastors “feel grossly underpaid” compared to who or what? Take a trip into the local factory and find that other workers feel just the same. But hey its a great stat for the preachers union,and negotiating a speaking fee and front of the plane travel.
And then the sources of the research:as quoted they “come from across denominational lines and have been gleamed from various sources,such as Pastor to Pastor etc etc…….and a few other respected ministries”.
First “pastor to pastor” and “Focus on the Family” belong to Dobson’s empire(notorious for its use of “research”);”Ministries Today and “Charisma magazine’ are the products of “Strang Communications,a multi media communications company”;and its not clear which TNT Ministres is meant: Ty and Tina McGehee’s AOG operation which also promotes Joyce Meyer(That alone should indicate some caution with this operation),or the one which began “around a kitchen table in Laurel with members of an instrumental churches of Christ and a semi retired sister in Christ”. None of them give any indication of their research capacity or,except for FOF,list any research.
But most importantly all of the above have stake in ensuring there’s a need out there, and promoting it like hell,ie pastors are in deep deep trouble,which their company,hey presto, can sell for the odd few thousand dollars,a training package designed just for you!
Gentle as doves and wise,cunning,sceptical, and cynical as serpents,when confronted with these kind of “research findings” is what’s needed.
Again if there is to be any real understanding of the dilemmas and challenges facing ministers,dont play around with suspect,dodgy stats,unless you can verify the status and integrity of the research. True they make for a great presentation in a theological college or the next Forge conference, but would you bet your house,car,Ipod,footy jock strap, your last slab or Dawkins latest book on them being verifiable!
April 15th, 2007 at 9:57 pm
The Barna Group does have some credibility in research.It found:
*like other adults many pastors struggle with personal relationships
*most pastors are supremely confident in their abilities to teach,make disuiples and lead
*many pastors depict their personalities as shy and introverted(NBthis is the same proportion as the general population)
*risk taking drops off after 20years plus ministry
*most pastors feel they lead a balanced life
Details of sampling etc at http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=242
April 16th, 2007 at 10:11 am
So, we have now proved that we can prove anything with statistics… You dismiss kimhammo’s stats as “nearly five years old” - has their been significant changes that you can highlight in work conditions that will see these Australian statistics as invalid? Are we not happy to use census data that is around this time frame.
Alan, you seem not to want to uphold the contention that pastors are under great levels of stress - is that true? And if so, why?
April 16th, 2007 at 11:09 am
I think pastors have it bad, probably worse than the vast majority of people on a similar wage.
I would suspect that they have some areas where they excel in over other careers, like job satisfaction.
Eventually though it doesn’t matter if pastors are worse off than others, what is important is that there is a problem and we are the ones to fix it.
But how?
April 16th, 2007 at 3:09 pm
I have to agree with Rev on this one. Perhaps if we didn’t have the organised structure that relied so heavily on the professionals then all this wouldn’t be so much of an issue….
By the way Phil, any return of your calling this week? Hope you are well…
April 16th, 2007 at 8:39 pm
KimHammo is onto one of the stresses (and privileges) of pastoral ministry being soemthing that doesn’t log on and off. Its a stress for the reasons KimHammo said, and a privilege ’cause pastors integrate their work with their lives with their families. This is hard for the families at times, but I erckon has its privileges too.
The Rev and Wayne are on to something key too, about a crooked model and its overreliance on professional ministry.
But I reckon one of the biggest stresses if lack of mutuality in ministry. When churches expect pastors to do the ministry to them (and not reciprocate in ministering to and encouraging pastors), and cop criticism (and expect apologies but rarely offer them), that is a stress. When ministry is mutual, however, its much mroe sustainable.
Alan is keen on verifiable stats - on the need for mutuality in ministry as a key factor in sustainability in ministry I am influenced by Paul & Libby Whetham’s qualitative research of 60 clergy on which they based their book Paul and Libby Whetham Hard to beHoly: Unravelling the Roles and Relationships of Church Leaders (Adelaide: Open Book, 2000). I would say it is the best and most constructive book on clergy stress/ burnout/ sustainability I have read.
I haven’t got the book with me, but again Rowland Croucher’s website is a good resource and has an interveiw with Paul Whetham explains its about: ‘a study of 60 clergy, from the Anglican, Roman Catholic, Baptist, Uniting and Pentecostal churches found that clergy were not only having great difficulty developing their personal spirituality, but many left the church out of frustration and a failure to develop meaningful relationships. … Hard to be Holy, documents the personal accounts of what emerges as the loneliest profession. Clergy who give advice, inspiration, and succour to their congregations, are often unable to ask for help themselves, especially from fellow clergy.’
There you go, if you believe their findings, loneliness come snot just from alck of mutuality with congregation members but lack of collegial support and mutuality. Mmm. …
April 19th, 2007 at 9:35 pm
Sorry Phil to take so long to respond.First I certainly do not want to deny that pastors,and whole lot of other workers,unemployed and people with disabilities are under extreme stress.What I was trying to do was to say, that if pastors are trying to make a case for the extent of stress,then be wary of shonky stats,whether they are 5 minutes or 5 years old. John Mark’s stats arise from a collection of organisations which do not have any credibility eg Dobson, and the Honolulu Advertiser.
Am not certain what you mean by Australian stats - John Marks stats are USA stats.
I’m wary of stats that have no credible source.It wasnt so long ago that someone was trying to persuade me that there were 312 sub sub groups in a community which demanded an equal number of sub emerging churches!
I think there is a gap in our understanding stress in the ministry and the degree to which it reflects the stress experienced by a range of other “helping profesions”.Darren raises an interesting issue re mutuality and support.Ministry would be one of the few professions/jobs/callings etc which has no association/professional organisation or union. Why do some ministers in the UK have a union and why did Churches of Christ ditched their association years ago.Why are catholic nuns in the Philippines bordering on the revolutionary,and priests in Australia are still arguing over the latin mass!
Ministers are being screwed all over the place yet they seem to have real difficulty in mobilising any community solidarity support,advocacy or defence from other ministers.
April 20th, 2007 at 5:21 pm
Alan,
Well, I am sure that other “helping professions” are also under stress. No denying that, infact I actually pointed out that many people are under stress. However, we are talking about the stress that ministers are under. And I think the point that the crossover into personal areas of work still stands as primarily a ministry stress unique point.
As for the statistics, it is quite possible that the statistics quoted are “unreliable”, although I am not sure dissing whole organisations such as John Mark, Emerging Church leaders makes the comment any more credible. Afterall if we agree with the point that is being made, doesn’t a dissing of the statistics and emerging church leaders lead us into unfruitful areas?
On the surface, it would seem that a professional association would be a good idea for ministers. Why hasn’t it been done? Does any denomination have one?
April 20th, 2007 at 5:41 pm
I would have thought that a lot of the stress experienced by pastors was as a result of trying to apply their dickhead thinking in the real world…and thus they’re forever chasing their tail.
I’m sure there are outside and structural factors that exacerbate pastors’ difficulties…but by its very nature..isn’t being inept stressful?
April 20th, 2007 at 6:04 pm
You calling me inept Lance?
April 20th, 2007 at 8:44 pm
You’re not a pastor.
You’re Dan’s Baldrick.
April 20th, 2007 at 8:50 pm
(took you long enough to bite)
April 20th, 2007 at 9:15 pm
Good answer
April 20th, 2007 at 9:59 pm
Baldrick always had a cunning plan….
What is it?
Cheers
MN
April 20th, 2007 at 10:28 pm
Seriously, I haven’t been commenting or posting here for weeks and suddenly I am blackadder in this scenario?