For my kids the best, and stuff the rest?
As a father of three with an interest in not only their education but that of all the other kids in our society - how can I make wise choices about school education?
Should I stick my kids in the best school I can afford and stuff the neighbours who go to the State school? Enrol at the closest State school and stuff my kids if that school happens to not be best for them? Find a creative way to redefine what makes a school ‘best’? Please help me.
And as requested on this post, here is some background reading that may or may not inform your responses.
Back in 2001 Australian author (I’m not sure if he is a dad) Shane Maloney went to ‘Rome’ and decided he wasn’t going to do as the Romans do. More like Nathaniel entering King David’s court to do some uncomfortable truth telling, Maloney visited Melbourne’s Scotch College, a symbol of inherited privilege, and let rip about the entrenched inequality he saw there.
Thanks to the wonders of the internet, his speech has gained an audience far beyond the original year 11 students – so here in part is what he told them:
It is not your fault, after all, that your families decided to institutionalise you. It is not your fault that your mothers and fathers elected to place you in the emotionally distorting and educationally deficient environment of an all-boys school. It is not your fault that your parents lacked sufficient confidence in your personal maturity and ability to respond to the opportunities offered by government school education - and Australia has one of the best systems in the world, by the way, despite the relentless propaganda to the contrary by the vested interest of the private-school lobby.
Right now, you are the victims. Later, of course, society will be your victim, and will suffer from the attitudes with which you are indoctrinated here. But who knows? Just as prison does not always break the spirit of all who are incarcerated there, perhaps you will not turn out to be a burden to society.
Perhaps when you leave here, some of you will even manage to contribute to the wellbeing of this country. I certainly hope so.
Recently freelance writer and mum Catherine Deveny was inspired by Maloney to comment in our daily broadsheet about the major party’s education funding policies. She questioned why the Federal Government spent more money on private schools than it did on State schools:
Private schools should not receive funding. That’s it. We have a police force funded by the Government. If you want a bodyguard or private security, you pay for it out of your own pocket.
The same should go for schools. If you want your child to go to a school where they wear blazers so you can get over your own insecurities, or the chip on your own shoulder, you should pay for it. Every single cent.
…
The school a child attends has no bearing on their future success or happiness. I’m disgusted by parents’ nauseating obsession with the perfect school for their perfect child.Sending children to private schools seems to be less about parents doing what they think is best for their child and more a case of parents wanting their children to have something better than every other child. Education is the entire community’s responsibility and the outcome affects us all.
Melbourne writer and mum of four privately educated children Michelle Hamer didn’t like Deveny giving all private schools the cold shoulder so entered the kitchen and turned up the heat with this response:
I am a survivor of the state school system — just. I was bullied, harangued, ignored and under-educated at the “closest secondary school” back when your school was chosen purely by geography, as Deveny has decided is good enough for her brood.
It didn’t kill me, but neither was it romantically rough-and-tumble. It was just rough and horrible.
Despite this, I thought state schools would be the place to educate my children. My parents had brought me up to believe, like Deveny, that the blazer-wearing “snobs” of the private sector were all privilege and no brains.
Three short years in an underfunded, under-resourced, worn out state education system quickly demonstrated that, at least in the schools in our area, the free option couldn’t compare with the private.
Where to from here?
May 31st, 2007 at 8:54 am
Emma,
I know your post isn’t directed specifically at me, but I’m someone who’d be guilty of exactly what you describe.
However I don’t see drugs and breaking-and-entering as indicative of “real life”. This is what my husband was exposed to at his elite private school. I have other friends who went to small community colleges, where they were either surrounded by Christian kids and families, or “alternative” types. I don’t see this is as “real life” either. On the other hand, I went to a school where some kids had tertiary-educated parents who always had jobs (mine), and other kids grew up in caravan parks. That, to me, is “real life”. My concern about private schooling is that it invariably meets a particular interest, it caters to a very specific subset of society. I don’t think that state schools are always particularly diverse - in poorer areas most parents who can afford to do so seem to send their kids to private schools, meaning that the kids who are at the state schools come from a particular socio-economic background. However the private school system isn’t founded on the idea of education for all - private schools exist purely to cater to some interests and not others…so even in an ideal world, they would never be as diverse as a state school.
May 31st, 2007 at 9:15 am
just-nigel …. I think you answer that best with your own words, I have tried to quote within the context of your entire postings, I apologise if I have not suceeded.
Original post -“As a father of three with an interest in not only their education but that of all the other kids in our society - how can I make wise choices about school education?”
and
“Should I stick my kids in the best school I can afford and stuff the neighbours who go to the State school? Enrol at the closest State school and stuff my kids if that school happens to not be best for them? Find a creative way to redefine what makes a school ‘best’? Please help me.”
and
“Recently freelance writer and mum Catherine Deveny was inspired by Maloney to comment in our daily broadsheet about the major party’s education funding policies. She questioned why the Federal Government spent more money on private schools than it did on State schools:”
and
Post 11-“ I am aand leader in my local State primary school and I see it at work there. I wonder about the motives of parents who visit 20 different primary schools when looking for a school for their child. I wonder at the parent who begrudges the poorest kids in the school getting subsidised care at the afterschool school care (where they are fed healthy food, adequately supervised, and stimulated in ways they may well not be at home). I wonder at the parent who demands their child to have more of the teachers attention in class.”
and
“That is why my kids - and not just the kids but their mum and their dad too - are part of the local State primary school.
Far from being concerend only with the future of my precious ‘perfect’ children, I have a responsability for all the children in our society.”
Just_nigel..I believe it was you who tangled the meanings, ‘I merely questioned them and sought the meanings
Oh and its interesting that its OK for you to dish it up, post 23, your response to my original comment…quote:”Oh I wonder if these comments lean toards the ’stuff the rest’ attitude of the title.”
Fair not, read my entire original post, quote me in context and from here on in you will be known in my heart always with respect as Niggle, it rhymes with giggle and this is fair debate.
May 31st, 2007 at 11:04 am
Hey Bec that SOOO wasn’t directed at you!!!
It was out of a conversation I had with a work colleague yesterday. Her son is being bullied at his state school and it isn’t being addressed well. His year is full of “morons” (her words!) who aren’t intersted in study, and he is quite academic. His best friend goes to the local private school and he desparately wants to go there too. This colleague said to me,” there’s no way I’m spending that much money!” they are extremely wealthy btw. Now it would be easy for someone who is pro private to think, “well she just doesn’t care about her son” and to me, I wouldn’t care how much it cost, I would be looking for alternatives. But I had to remind myself, maybe there are other reasons, maybe she wants him to “toughen up” I have no idea. Other things are important to her.
But it works the other way too. I dislike pro-state schoolers who belittle the decisions of parents to choose private shools for their kids. Often it’s a big sacrifice, and people turn around and say things like “you’re doing your kids a disservice” bla bla bla. (not you bec!) I totally value the sacrifice my parents made, comparing my education to that of my friends, I certainly got a better education than I would have at the local state school (again, just my experience).
My point is that pro-private schoolers shouldn’t say either that those of us who choose state education don’t care ab out their kids, it’s stupid. But we all value different things. I’m now at the point of going state for primary, and then just seeing for high. But I don’t begrudge anyone for choosing differently.
May 31st, 2007 at 11:16 am
Emma - I know it wasn’t directed at me, but I was just trying to clarify what I (maybe others) mean by “real life”.
I got bullied at school, and partly because I was so academic…I don’t believe in making kids “toughen up” (that’s ridiculous when bullying is concerned), but I do think that staying in the state system was good for me for the reasons I’ve explained before…also, I think academic kids are often bullied wherever they are. The thing that saved me was the fact that I was also ok at sport!
I agree with the points you and onetrusted have made about people respecting the decisions of others…but I also wonder how we, as Christians, reconcile this with ideas about accountability, discipleship etc. To what extent is this yet another example of privatising morality?
May 31st, 2007 at 12:05 pm
I’m not 100 per cent sure what you mean by that, can you explain?
btw the whole sport thing is another deal - if you’re crap at sport it’s much harder, I so agree!
I don’t know that I agreed with everything onetrusted said. she took offence at just nigel saying it was a “stuff the rest” mentaility…but I could kind of see what he meant. I guess I feel like i do have a responsibility to my community, but mostly to my own kids. If I do think they would do better for whatever reason in a private school, then I think I would probably send them there. I don’t think I would be saying to myself, “well what about all the other kids who aren’t going ti benefit from having my little johnny there? he’s the only bright spot in a world of darkness” and put that much pressure on a 14-year-old kid. If just nigel considers this a “stuff the rest” mentality, well maybe it is and maybe I’m being honest enough to say yes to me my kids are more important than my neighbour’s kids at this time, in this situation.
is that what you mean???
May 31st, 2007 at 12:25 pm
Interesting topic… i think it got a fair airing on ‘Backyard Missionary’ a year or so ago as well, so interesting for me to look at what I thought then, and what I think now.
My kids are missionaries in training. They practice on their little mates who live in the street, and are learning about balancing God-Talk with God-Walk in terms of what they say and do (they’re 7&9).
They also ‘practice’ on the other non-Christian kids in their classes when those kids say ‘what did the teacher mean when she was talking about …?’
I’m not sure that we can afford to send them to the local CSA school. They don’t need the school to teach them about God & values and stuff - I would rather take 1st responsibility for that. However, I like what the school teaches when ‘real - life’ situations, such as bullying, feeling sick, struggling with a particular class or if things are going poorly for some kids at home (the school has ‘open enrollment’, but sometimes it’s the ‘christian kids’ who have issues at home as well) arise.
The teacher or principal listen, speak about some basic Kingdom principles that can be applied, and then pray. Then they follow up over the next few days or so to see how things are going.
I also like that I can be confident that (most of) the teachers pray for the kids in their classes regularly.
I was a product of state schools. Hated high school, but figured that we would go that line for our own kids, cos we didn’t want to ‘cloister’ them. I guess i’ve found that not all christian/private schools have to have that effect.
In terms of them ‘missionising’ to other state-school kids?
1 - there are many other opportunities for them to mix with non-christian kids, such as sport, on the neighbourhood street etc.
2 - I’m pretty happy with them developing their own faith, working out what it looks like for them and learning to apply it in a safe place. From what I remember, there weren’t many christian kids in my state school who were able to have much of an impact anyway, so I’m dubious about the benefits of inflicting such a cost for that reason alone.
3 - If they can learn about the broader christian community in a school that has kids from all church denominations, plus a healthy smattering of house church, non-church and ‘not-real-keen-on-church’, then they might be able to take some of those principles into the rest of their lives.
I have mates who send their kids to the local state primary schools. We are lucky in Busselton - most of the state schools seem to be pretty good. When we chat, we agree that there are pros and cons for both, and each choice provides its share of opportunities and pitfalls, for which we may need to pick up the slack at home.
The evidence of their 1st 3yrs at this school is that they are forming into well-rounded people who care about those outside their own sphere. They are developing well academically, and feel that school is a safe place to be.
They are already streets ahead of where I was at. So, while it’s not broken, I aint fixing it!
May 31st, 2007 at 12:32 pm
Yeah I should add too I am not in favour of “closed enrollment” christian schools. At my school there were probably only about 8 christians in a year of 100, so there were plenty of opportunities to witness.
i liked what you said toddy, pros and cons for both. I think it’s a mistake to automatically assume the state school can’t provide what your kids need, but I see it as a mistake to also think that you are in some way being elitist if you can see there’s a problem and believe that maybe a private school can help. not all educations suit all kids.
May 31st, 2007 at 12:33 pm
Emma…I lost my lengthy post, so this one will just be quick!
I was referring to the warning which you and onetrusted both issued against judging the decisions made by parents. This is a valid warning, but at the same time, I’ve only ever heard schooling spoken about ONCE in a church environment…Steve Bradbury (of TEAR) mentioned it to a gathering of Christian Lawyers. This is worrying, since schooling is an issue that all parents struggle with, and since school is the place that our children spend most of their time. If what we do in our bedrooms is open to discussion by the church, then surely where our kids go to school should be! There’s a lot more reasons it should be talked about in church too, but I’ll leave it there for now in case this post gets lost too!
May 31st, 2007 at 12:36 pm
Sorry…just to add..Emma and Toddy, you’re both still talking about what’s best for “our” kids. I have no doubt that in some circumstances, going private might be better for “my” (hypothetical) kids. However nobody has yet addressed JN’s point about “stuffing the rest”. Where does justice fit into all of this? For me, the question would always be: “How can I justify supporting a system which is, by it’s very nature, not accessible to all?”
May 31st, 2007 at 12:44 pm
Bec - first thing - yes it should definitely be discussed and discussing it here has helped me, for instance your experiences have helped get rid of some of the generalisations I held about state schooling. I dislike that it becomes a “good parents do this and good parents do that” debate. I think we can discuss the issues without falling into that trap.
I did mention the stuff the rest thing…and I agree with you. Intellectually I agree. Now the unfortunate thing for me is I look at my little boy. Who’s “gifted” and high sensitive. Who has a “nervous” problem and doesn’t socialise easily. Who is the type of boy who looks at a photograph album, sees a photo of me as a baby sitting alone in my pram and his eyes fill with tears as he says, “Mummy, why are you lonely?” Who is pretty uncoordinated and will never be very good at sports. And all of a sudden my intellectual sensibilities dim in the light of - what is going to be best for YOU? How can I help you be the best person YOU can be? what is the environment that is going to help YOU flourish???
and we should spare a mention here for the homeshoolers - rev is one of the most community supporting people on here, and yet they homeschooled. does that mean he didn’t support the community?
May 31st, 2007 at 12:49 pm
Emma,
I don’t doubt that intellectual sensibilities dim in the light of the hard questions about what’s best for our own kids. BUT…how does this fit in with costly discipleship, the sorts of points the Rev makes about life as a Christ-follower being tough etc.
For some context to these questions: I’ve admitted, and will do it again, that this is at present purely hypothetical for me. So I get to sit here and opine away, and ask loaded questions, without it costing me anything.
The homeschooling thing is an interesting one, and you’re right that it hasn’t come up - but I think it raises a different set of questions.
May 31st, 2007 at 12:52 pm
“How can I justify supporting a system which is, by it’s very nature, not accessible to all?”
Sorry - good question.
How can I support a legal system where the best legal advice is not accessible to all? (sorry Bec - it was a bit too easy)
Back to the question, it’s one that I consider a bit, although not enough.
Sometimes, the only difference I can make is for me, my family and their future.
I’m not sure that sacrificing my kids academic/spiritual futures (I’m not convinced that I am, but you get the point) is going to make a discernable difference.
Maybe it’s that I don’t know how to make a difference to the bigger state-school picture. However, I can look (at a micro level) at what options exist now, and make the best decision I know how to.
The school my kids go to is seen as the ‘poor cousin’ to the other state-schools in town. They are well resourced and full of kids.
My kid’s school is getting bigger, slowly, and is currently under good administration. Perhaps good schools getting good reputations is what is required for other schools to make a difference in their own policies?
Sorry - a poor answer thus far. I’ll think some more.
May 31st, 2007 at 12:58 pm
Toddy,
no apology needed re: the legal system - it’s a question that most lawyers ask!! Most people in plaintiff law firms (Slater and Gordon and the like) are there for that reason - it’s not because they think that underprivileged people invariably have stronger legal claims than wealthier people! They’re there for access to justice reasons.
It’s a great answer thus far…I look forward to the rest!
May 31st, 2007 at 1:01 pm
Yes, I agree about costly discipleship - but I make that decision for ME. Can I, and is it my right, to make that decision for a 5-year-old? Don’t I have some responsibility as a parent to do that’s best for THEM?
as parents I feel this is constantly a source of conflict for me. Do I pick up the hitchhiker with my baby in the backseat? Do I take my three-year-old witnessing with me to the “river rats” down by the river? where do you draw that line? I’m not equating state schooling with “ultimate or immediate physical or spiritual danger? but if you[’re going to argue costly discipleship then it applies in all other situations as well. Do I buy a house and “provide” for my family or rent and give the money away? Do I take my kids on holidays to have fun or do I sponsor more children?
May 31st, 2007 at 1:11 pm
Emma,
I completely agree - and this is ANOTHER thing the church doesn’t deal with well. I personally feel ill-equipped to know how I manage such questions with my HUSBAND - an adult, and equal - let alone a CHILD.
I actually had to grapple with this issue last year, before we got married…I was actually approached to do some work which would be quite dangerous. I was thrilled about it - it’s right up my alley - but the people close to me were worried about my personal safety. In the end it didn’t get any further than an idea, for a range of reasons, but I’m not sure how I would have resolved these questions if it had proceeded. It’s one thing for me to risk my life - but what impact does that have on the people who love me, let alone a child? There are plenty of people who deal with these questions all the time, but I think that the broader church has neglected them…I mean, after 27 years of going to church, I certainly don’t feel like I’ve got anything near a theological framework in which to consider these issues!!
May 31st, 2007 at 1:25 pm
yeah totally. I was thinking about it this morning because I did a review of a DVD (true story) where some missionaries got murdered by an ecudorian tribe. their wives packed up their families and moved to equador to continue their work, taking their kids to live with/near the people who had murdered their fathers.
i jsut don’t know that I could have done that.
and as for now having kids, I am so reluctant to put myself in immediate danger for that reason, would hate for them to grow up without me.
May 31st, 2007 at 1:26 pm
Good call, Bec. My work requires me (regularly) to put myself either in harms way, or in the way of those who cause harm.
I’m comfortable with that, because it’s up to me to make assessments, judgements, decisions about what is or isn’t appropriate etc.
If I come across one of these bods in the street and my family are with me, I’ll avoid them like the plague, or ask my wife to take my kids elsewhere while I talk to the bod - they don’t need to know what my family looks like… my family didn’t sign on for that type of confrontation.
Re schooling… I guess I’m getting more and more ok about making the best decision for MY kids as I can, and then getting about trying to help others make good decisions, take advantage of available resources etc.
A bit like the airline telling the adult to ‘pull the mask onto their own face 1st, then helping kids/those around them 2nd’.
…still thinking…
May 31st, 2007 at 8:54 pm
I think localness is an important consideration. If you’re going to be living in one place long-term, it’s great for your kids to be able to ride to school and have many of their friends living nearby.
One morning I went to chapel at a christian high school. It was a great worship time, the best possible preparation for my long day at work. It was amazing to be in a place that was both school and church at the same time. As I sang with hundreds of voices behind me I thought of the kids who would be growing in faith and benefitting from this environment.
I follwed the Y12s into the Christian Living class for a bit more of the same. I remember a teacher sitting on the floor praying with a student - I never saw anything like that in my school years, despite a large number of Christian teachers.
And I thought about my high school, and how there weren’t that many Christians, because so many of them were going to schools like this one! And lots of these kids, inspired to serve God and make him known, don’t know many people outside the churuch to make Him known to! I wished they could graduate some of them at year 10 and send them as missionaries to their local school.
I wonder how many people live in the Christian parallel universe, consisting of Sunrise/Temple/Tabor/etc, Word/Koorong, LifeFM and their church. All can be benefical, but the whole structure looks like a scheme to keep some of the most committed Christians out of the real world.
May 31st, 2007 at 9:34 pm
How about kindergarten? Even there I was taught it is rude to call people names. Onetrusted, when you do this to me I feel you are disrespecting me. I would prefer it if you didn’t. Do you want to talk about education options and how we can make those choices?
June 9th, 2007 at 8:18 am
Well, the rhetoric about the federal government funding private schools to make them more affordable and give parents choice is apparently a load of bunk… especially at the elite end of the spectrum.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/private-school-fees-rise-despite-windfall/2007/06/08/1181089329467.html
June 9th, 2007 at 8:25 am
“a groundbreaking initiative to alter the face of teaching and learning … to enable students to look beyond the possible to achieve the unimaginable”.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/building-boom-as-elite-schools-play-catchup/2007/06/08/1181089329499.html
What happens if you attempt to reduce private school fees:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/principal-slams-massive-edifices/2007/06/08/1181089329502.html
June 10th, 2007 at 8:04 pm
Great comments here from everyone … it’s been great to follow along. Many well-thought ideas on all sides of the fences.
I don’t think anyone has raised this issue yet, but what about our involvement as parents in extracurricular activities (parents and citizens meetings, sports days, school fetes, bbq’s, and stuff like that)? It’s not just the kids who get involved with the school, but parents as well.
I can see immediate missional needs associated with being involved with a state school as opposed to a Christian private school … but what do others think?
June 10th, 2007 at 10:26 pm
Absolutely. My local church has a strong relationship with the local primary school… we sponsor a chaplain there one day a week (our children’s minister), and have volunteers from the church act as mentors for children at risk through Kidshope (a World Vision mentoring iniative). Parents from the church are involved in working bees, school maintennance initiatives, the wellbeing committee, etc. One mum runs a prayer meeting for the school. School mums have connected with playgroup, and many kids from the school attend the church school holiday program… then most importantly, there’s all the informal relationship stuff.
If all the Christian parents pull out of state schools, all these opportunities would be missed.