Necrophilia and other sins
I was just reading the attached article entitled “Biblical battle of creation groups” in the Australian as submitted in a link by Alan as found here:
Whilst the article focuses on the accusations of financial impropriety and power broking within the Creation Ministry, I found this accusation fascinating:
“According to Mr Briese’s report, the campaign last year also involved John Mackay, a former associate of Mr Ham in Queensland, who was excommunicated in the 1980s after making allegations of witchcraft and necrophilia against a fellow member of the ministry”.
What…? Allegations of necrophilia within the Creation Ministry …?
For the uninitiated, ‘necrophilia’ is described as
“Necrophilia, also called thanatophilia and necrolagnia, is a paraphilia characterized by a sexual attraction to corpses.”
Consequently, I have been wondering as to whether this allegation is even more defamatory to a Creationist, not because it implies that the fellow minister of the ministry is a sexual pervert … but rather that it demonstrates that sin does occur AFTER death!.
June 19th, 2007 at 11:04 am
So… I assume the corpse was dead sexy?
June 19th, 2007 at 11:06 am
Huh? The relevant death is that of the victim, not the perpertrator/sinner.
June 19th, 2007 at 11:21 am
Long standing stoush. I hope they both go under. This blogger has been linking to available information available on the web.
June 19th, 2007 at 11:45 am
I think its all a bit of a witch-hunt really. The corpse in question was that of the husband of the accused - so its all OK, they were married - nothing to see here move along.
June 19th, 2007 at 2:43 pm
Accusing others in the ministry of things like Witchcraft or Necrophilia sounds quite defamatory. A close friend of mine used to work at a Christian school and was being “leaned” on by the school principal (to work harder, be more godly, treat the school as your ministry, obey the principal as though he is God, etc etc etc). One day the Principal told him that he thought my friend had been demon possessed.
Using language like this indicates a simple desire to defame amongst other Christians. If you want someone to be “gotten” in the Christian world then slander them with things like witchcraft or satanism or pedophilia or porn addiction.
BTW - I’m not taking sides in this debate. I don’t know the details but I do know that using such language means it is probably inaccurate.
June 19th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
Charming…..
Accusing a woman who’s husband has just died of a variety of henious acts shows a great deal of sensitivity for a grieving widow. Nice…..
I am just surprised it seems to be Baptists involved in all of this, I thought they were a bit more grounded and had a bit more common sense than that.
Accusing people of being demon oppressed/ possessed or having a ‘dark side’ or ’sin in their lives’ or not having enough ‘faith’ or slandering and gossiping about people behind their backs to other individuals or churches to cover ones own arse or climb the church leadership ladder…all sounds a bit Pente to me.
One salient oversight; Don’t forget accussing women of having a Jezebel spirit that’s an oldie but a goodie.
June 19th, 2007 at 3:37 pm
It was all straight out of the Salem handbook - accuse a vulnerable woman - a widow, no eye-witnesses just “discernment”, kangaroo courts held in private where the accused couldn’t answer the charges. Margaret Buchanan has a well written response to the whole affair here: http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/4261
What is perhaps worse is the Christians who sat on the fence, or told her that since her accuser had an important ministry that she should not answer back and should resign.
This kind of thing happens all the time - it is not just a Pente problem. I dont know why this site seems to concentrate primarily on the wrongs of Hillsong and the AOG, when these sort of injustices are happening everywhere. People are believed or dis-believed based purely on their perceived “importance” or standing in the Church.
The whole Peter Hollingworth affair made me sick. Here was an Archbishop defending his Bishop against child-abuse allegations by blaming the child. And the perpetrator has still not been brought to justice. Here again is the demonising of a vulnerable woman and it should never have happened.
June 19th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
Your right warren terra; abuse of power happens within all denominations. Good point and one worth remembering.
June 20th, 2007 at 9:51 pm
daisy…the old jezebel accusation. Yes, have heard it myself many a time. we women should really learn what our place is in this world.
June 21st, 2007 at 11:50 pm
Dod Frances Frangipane coin the phrase Jezebel Spirit in the Three Battle grounds? Or was it someone else???
June 24th, 2007 at 9:40 am
Some interesting reading on the so-called Jezebel spirit, especially the second article, which I can relate to from sad personal experience.
Unfortunately, the same pattern is continuing today with my children, particularly my boys. Call it what you will (a spirit or a psychological problem), I also believe the same pattern of behaviour to be the root cause of my marriage breakdown…despite many efforts by me over the years to address the issue with my former spouse. At the time, I think the church counselling couldn’t see behind the ‘lovely person’ exterior, which I had been dealing with for many years. By then, the primary focus was on the hurt which I had caused by committing adultery.
http://latter-rain.com/eschae/jezebel.htm
http://www.sweety.com/Jezebel.pdf
Also, the ‘Jezebel spirit’ can apply to churches and individuals, and is not gender-specific.
June 24th, 2007 at 9:50 am
…and, apparently, it can also apply to all forms of authority and government in society.
June 24th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
Sorry singer, I cannot agree with you on this one.
I think this Jezebel teaching stuff is Pentecostal mumbo jumbo, and smacks of Elijah house teaching (which I find a bit extreme and scary)…
Narcissism is a psychological diagnosis, although true narcissists are probably rare as are true psychopaths.
I find the article which outlines knowing who has a Jezebel spirit as being someone who leave you feeling drained etc is ridiculous.
Personality clashes are going to occur which is probably why as christians we are called to love, a love that is a choice not based on whether someone makes us feel good.
I grant you we can experience toxic relationships, however practical wisdom would encourage us to remove ourselves from toxic relationships whilst wishing the person we cannot be in a healthy relationship with well.
June 24th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
daisy,
I agree with you, actually. The ‘jezebel spirit’ concept is one that was suggested to me by someone (not a counsellor) at the time. I certainly relate to the article in terms of the effects some relationships can have on those in them, but what I didn’t make clear is I think the jury is very much out on the whole concept of a ‘jezebel spirit’…and yes, it is a very penty idea. Sorry for not being clearer there. I’m more inclined to think that many issues such as these have a psychological basis.
I think it’s interesting to see where all the teaching is coming from.
June 25th, 2007 at 6:12 am
Isn’t a jez spirit just a term coined to identify someone who acts out of a controlling nature? It’s not an actual spirit but more of an attitude or way operation. The basis is fleshly desire to control and manipulate other people. i read 3BG’s about 15 years ago and i think Frangipane made that statement about being careful not to name it as a demonic spirit. His basis was the woman inamed jezebel in REVelation who taught gods people to eat meat sacrificed to idols and commit sexual sin… But time has passed and I have slept since then.
June 25th, 2007 at 9:34 am
I just don’t get it…..
Then why not simply say “that person behaves in a controlling and manipulative manner, as far as I am concerned?” or “I find that person difficult to deal with for such and such reasons”.
Silly me, that would call on people to be accountable for their opinions and more importantly acountable for some of the more slanderous things they utter…..
Why does behaviour need some kind of weird Penty ’spiritual’ label in the first place?
From what I have seen in Penty circles, ‘jezebel spirit’ is a label that is mostly thrown around to be hurtfulful, spiteful or shut people up or a cowards (albeit a very ’spiritual’ cowards) way of saying “I don’t like so and so”.
It is usually a label that is thrown around at women, hmmm could it be the very label ‘jezebel spirit’ is used to control people and manipulate others??….. kind of ironic really…….
As one christian ‘counsellor’ once said to me “it is usually the people who label people with having a ‘jezebel spirit’ who would be at the most risk of actually having one.
It’s all just too much for me!!
June 25th, 2007 at 11:44 am
Very true Daisy, these and other ’spiritual’ labels can be a substitute for thinking about the complexity of the issues. If you just give a spiritual label to something it implies that there is only a spiritual solution to the problem. The whole complexity of psychology and responsibility in relationships is reduced down to a label that stops thought. At its worst it is just another term for Witch.
I suppose that is a problem of most forms of Christianese. A small section of society assumes that it knows or can perceive something that the rest cannot - and talks about it in their own jargon. There is no proper discussion or argument of the merits of the concept, because acceptance of the concept is the price of belonging to the group.
June 25th, 2007 at 11:46 am
Some people like to call everything that doens;t fit with their own standards or way of being as a spirit or demonic power - laziness and dangerous if you beoieve them and then start thinking you have to be excorcised!
June 25th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
daisy - yeah I guess… hmmmm… I don’t think I have ever been in a place where someone has been labeled or called a Jezebel spirit. From what i have seen of it, it has been a term used in dialogue to identify behaviors. It’s also offensive to label someone as a “controller or manipulator”.
To say that it is a term thrown around in Penty circles to contrlo people is a bit of a stretch ( in the US anyway) becasue many Pentecostal churches here would not even know what you were refering to. It’s not THAT common. Obviously, some have used it, but not everyone, i doubt even 1/2 the AoG church folks in the US woul understand what Jezebel means.
The Jezebel Spirit also includes more than control and manipulation. There is, according to some, a level of clarivoyance involved. It probably is unknown outside the charismatic church though. I read the 3 battle groulnds after being torn apart by a pastor’s wife some 15 years ago. At the time, we had no idea about the situation we were going through and what we had been facing, we finally left the church is small shreds.
After 3 months i ran across “the 3 battlegrounds” and it help a lot to understand where we had been, Jezebel Spirit or call it whatever - the book helped. The book also has a strong emphasis on Christ likeness being our goal - not Power. it seems like most books on the subject skip that part though and get right to the “fun” stuff.
I have heard from others that Frangipane believes about all women in ministry are influenced by the thing. Other authors say it is male and female.
June 25th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
Thanks for that akevin.
I guess for those of us who were brought up in old-time charismatic/penty circles, the whole concept of an active holy spirit and ’spiritual realm’ was something taught and embraced from childhood as being part of our daily christian lives.
It can turn some people into over-zealous demon chasers…and worse, some can believe they are hearing from, or being guided by, the holy spirit…when it may be otherwise.
This may be part of the reasoning behind the absence of ’signs & wonders’ at HS services.
I believe there may have been a divergence of opinion in this regard between FH and BH. FH was a great believer in the manifestation of the holy spirit during church services….speaking in tongues, praying for the sick, casting out demons etc. However, I think BH is more image-conscious…perhaps not wanting to scare new people away with the more, shall we say, ‘outlandish’ aspects of pentecostalism.
June 25th, 2007 at 9:27 pm
I have a couple who go to our church, that were in a demon chasing church - they have resorted to humor (sarcasm) as their help in healing. One of their favorite sayigs is, “we have brought the two of you to the accusation parlor, because ONE OF YOU HAS A DEMON!”
I think the overzealous part is the thing with whatever is the latest hottest thing in charismania or pentemania… or baptmania. Never saw any Methomania though. All these dogmatic disciples get a hold of someone elses revelation and them go and try to be the leader, or get so brown nosed as his follower that they get special notice at convention.
Some of the coldest people i ever met in ministry were followers of hagin. I knew a man who had liver/pancreatic cancer that went to a Hagin Meeting back in 1993. About 4 weeks before he died his pastor took him to Oklahoma - (about a 12 hour drive from here) to get healed, Richard could not stand in line becasue he was really sick. he asked the pastor if he could let him stay at the hotel and rest while the pastor held him a seat. The pastor told him he was “just going to have to learn to get TOUGH”. He died about 2 weeks after the grueling drive home with the pastor, his wife, 2 kids and the nanny (senior citizen widow from the church).
June 25th, 2007 at 9:48 pm
The AoG thing (FH/BH) is also pretty much a thing here also. If you want to freak a baptist out just speak in tongues. if you want to freak an AoGer out, just give them a word of knowledge. I think you see little of these going on in AoG is becasue it makes controversy and that keeps desirable disciples (those with money and influence) away. Besides, occasionally a prophetic thing is given by a parking lot prophet and it’s so screwy that they shut it ALL down.
I always liked the “SHONDA RA HIGH_UH” followed by the interpretation “you are MY PEOPLE! PRAISE ME! PRAISE! PRAISE ME!” - in my early days of Pentecost -1973-80, I don’t think I was ever in an Aog that this wasn’t said about once a month. They loved it until the word was given without tongues - then they freaked! The baptist church I grew up in freaked at the word “tongues”.
but surely I ramble..