Hillsong - A Case For Change
There has been much talk, in the threads about documenting a “Case For Change” for Hillsong.
And very soon, Tanya Levin’s new book “Glass Houses” will hit both the boookstores, and the words contained within will be discussed and debated across the Blogosphere.
Recently, the Bulletin published a positive article on Hillsong, and to be more specific, the closing sermon:
“Skinner addressed the crowd with a blunt message: “You can’t separate God in his awesome power in heaven from the snotty, bloated kid with the fly in his eye in the ditch. God is not impressed by the size of our church. God is not impressed by how many times we go to church but by how much we become like Jesus. The world is on an accumulation binge - give me more and more and more - but God is a giver.”
We have all discussed the ‘what needs to change’ - but I am now left thinking.
1) Is real Change possible within Hillsong and other contemporary Churches?
2) What will be the real driver for change in the Contemporary Church (that includes Hillsong) - Critique or the Gospel?
3) Is reconcilliation without compromise really possible between the Contemporary Church and those overwhelmingly disenfranchised by it?
August 1st, 2007 at 4:12 pm
1. Surely we must believe real change is possible anywhere
2. If we are to accept that the Gospel exists in Hillsong, then introducing the Gospel again where it already exists will have a negligible effect. Surely Proverbs 9:8 is in order here.
3. Yes, but I think it becomes harder and harder if the two sides become cemented in their views.
August 1st, 2007 at 4:57 pm
1) ditto
2) I believe the strongest tool must involve them both in concert
3) I’m not sure that compromise is the right word, both sides need change.
August 1st, 2007 at 5:00 pm
In that it is considered contemporary, it must have deemed change necessary already and embarked on a course away from traditional, but has it retained any necessary traditional traits?
It would be interesting to establish first of all how you define ‘contemporary’ against how they define ‘contemporary’ to see if there is any resemblance in definitions. Is contemporary and ethos, a vision, a culture, or a revamped version of an ancient creed. If it is considered a more relevant presentation of the gospel which appeals to this generation, how will it fair when its model is outmoded and no longer contemporary? How contemporary is contemporary?
If it is in its beginning stages is it in its infancy or adolescence, and can we have a hope that it will therefore, by necessity, have to change to mature?
August 1st, 2007 at 6:39 pm
If they change, wont they just end up disenfranchising a different demographic? You can please some of the people some of the time…
Churches are not like condoms, where one size fits all…
August 1st, 2007 at 7:56 pm
Tanya’s book points out some definite areas of spiritual abuse that is rampant in AOG churches. She has certainly witnessed a lot of ungodly crap and has been given the cold shoulder for not conforming which is common place with this style of leadership. From my experience having being involved in three, including Hillsong, arrogance seems to be OK if you are a leader or pastor. However, I am sure there are still some great AOG churches out there. Anyway, so, in the real world if a boss yells in the face of an employee, it’s considered bullying/harrassment, how come pastors get to do it. Tanya makes the point that the church should have disclosed the nature of a fallen pastors indiscretion, rather than just say it was immoral behaviour, because she sees this as a cover up. I think in this instance Brian got it right. To publicy say that a Pastor has been caught in prostitution and phone sex infront of his wife and kids who may be sitting in the front row, is not at all what Jesus would do. Those innocent family members etc shouldn’t have to hear that from the pulpit. Was he trying to keep things hushed up or was he being a true pastor and protecting the innocent? Caught in an immoral act says enough. Tanya, does the church really need to now the exact nature of the act. Is this not the same as taking people out into the arena shaving their heads and writing their sexual sin on their forehead for all to see, such as in the dark ages. Just doesn’t have the compassion factor for me to see Jesus in it.
August 1st, 2007 at 11:10 pm
I remember when I heard about Pat, first reaction did not believe it, just stupid church gossip. Then once I found out it was true I felt incredbily sad for him and his whole family. I have to agree in this instance I believe BH got it right too. Pat was no danger to the flock. What made me angry was how did Pat get so exhausted and off track that he ended up making a mistake so out of character. It spoke volumes of the machine to me.
August 1st, 2007 at 11:11 pm
id LIKE to believe that change is possible…
but let’s be serious here
in a couple thousand years of the church it’s really not changed much at all,
by large changes come from people starting new things, not normally from the inside
and when people think it’s working (and those in hillsong and many other pentecostal churches would say it is working) change is almost impossible.
and to ask if the gospel or critique will be the means for change is also an odd question as a) they believe their understanding of the gospel to be true and others that differ to be incorrect or half true and b) critique comes from attacks from the evil one, and are challenges to faith rather than a christ challenge for us to think about our message.
sorry to be the sad sack sitting in the corner, but i’ve got to the stage that ill allow them to operate as they do, and if the govnment decide that they have broken tax/funding or other laws then that will be something thatll challenge other churches…
August 1st, 2007 at 11:40 pm
Commiserations to those of you above who the big machine attempted to consume.
It’s why I’ve never been able to go to a big church for other than a fleeting visit - the purpose becomes the organisation itself more and more and less about God and people - gives me the creeps thinking about it - have enough trouble dealing with people in small churches as I know those people have with me.
The thing I find devastatingly sad is that many will lose or renounce whatever faith they might have had and fall by the wayside, or become crippled and bitter in their faith. Talk about grieving the Holy Spirit.
But it is great to hear people come out the other side and still bear witness to God, and that He is good.
That is a great encouragement to me who hasn’t been through that particular wringer, and I suspect even moreso to those who have, and are still going through it.
Cheers
MN
August 2nd, 2007 at 12:19 am
There is no doubt I’m left with issues.
I came to the realisation myself I need counselling.
I talked it through with my girlfriend and she agrees.
I’ve walked in some pretty dark places.
August 2nd, 2007 at 6:03 am
big hugs and love to you emblazoned
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:41 am
If it’s ok with you, I will be praying you find just the right counsellor for your needs emblazoned, someone who really understands your experience.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:59 am
Emblazoned -
The closest things to any persons soul are 1) Their relationships with people, 2) their relationships with God (spirituality) 3) Their finances.
When you discover Spiritual Leaders have violated your trust and manipulated these thress apspects of your life, then it cuts so,so deeply.
This is spiritual abuse. Get some counselling. I have also been through some dark times. But, whilst it hurts, without pain there is no gain.
It is the Truth that is setting you free.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:13 am
Emblazoned
I’m with Daisy - getting the right counsellor is very very important, although sometimes I still want to pummel the right counsellor on many occasion (different circumstances though) - it does make a difference - doesn’t remove the problems, but it enabled me to deal with them more constructively and see my way through. If you don’t mind I’ll be praying as Daisy.
God bless
MN
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:19 am
“wanted to pummel” - past tense - although it wouldn’t hurt to re-visit I think
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:11 am
Hillsong is essentially driven by the Houstons. It’s a classic example of a church driven by a “larger than life” personality. The sooner Hillsong is without the Houstons (either through death or leaving) the easier it will be for the church to move towards a more biblical theology.
Examples:
The Vineyard movement in the US is more biblically based since Wimber died. Without his personality driving it, they have been forced to rely more on the scriptures than upon other Vineyard personalities.
Seventh Day Adventists could have gone the same way as Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses - yet there were no “big” SDA figures controlling the church after Ellen G White left. The result has been a turning back to biblical theology.
The Worldwide Church of God has become more biblical since the death of Herbert Armstrong. In recent years they have made theological announcements that, while startling from within the movement, actually reflect orthodox Christian belief.
Hillsong now - and the people involved in it - are far better off that the SDAs and WCGs were back when their leaders left. If the Houstons leave I honestly believe that the church will be better off.
Maybe we need to pray that God “takes them to glory”?
August 2nd, 2007 at 11:16 am
Hillsong at one level is just like any other large organisation. Real change is difficult to achieve by the leadership - it is almost impossible to achieve it from outside. Organisations exist for 2 purposes - their stated purpose and their real purpose. Their real purpose is to provide benefits for their owners and stakeholders.
What will be the real driver for change? Neither critique or the Gospel, but some external factor. A big economic recession could cause people to question things. The default setting for humans is to follow leadership, not scripture or rational argument. They will bend scripture and logic to be in accordance with leadership.
Is reconcilliation possible? Yes, just as it is possible for the Government to apologise to the stolen generation. But it would be unwise to wait for it.
In my case, I think the best way forward was acceptance that things were never going to change. The challenge then is to avoid becoming cynical and bitter. Somehow we have to take some positive things from the experience and use it to inform our faith rather than destroy it.
August 2nd, 2007 at 11:53 am
Oh my. I don’t think we should even consider praying for God to remove Brian and Bobbie. Yikes!
The reality is that even without them at the helm, the people of this church have been so trained in the leadership concept, and there are so many strong personalities in leadership there, that it will continue on.
You have to keep in mind that Hillsong is only one church that is like this. The difference is that they are the most visible because of their musical success. There is at least one other CLC in the Sydney region that is as controlling, if not more so, than Hills.
True change will only happen when humility enters the picture. That’s true for any of us. When God allows hearts to break and opens our eyes to His grace alone, then we see transformation.
It is going to take a major work of the Spirit to start opening the eyes and hearts of people attending these powerful, controlling churches. But that’s not impossible. He did it for me about 7 years ago, and He has done it to others here. If He did it for us, then He will do it for others too. We just need to be there for them when they start to realize.
Love, Deb
August 2nd, 2007 at 12:06 pm
Dear Emblazoned
My heart goes out to you..and my prayers. I endorse all the encouragement given by others here…and there’s a great support network here, so you don’t have to feel as though you’re going it alone.
I just wish signposts had been around years ago.
and breathfreshair,
glad you found us Deb. Really appreciate your input.
August 2nd, 2007 at 1:11 pm
Thanks for the support everyone..I really do appreciate it. May God return all your kindness..
August 2nd, 2007 at 3:12 pm
The discussion about leadership and founders is really interesting…I think it’s worth noting that the things I’ve read here about the leadership at Hillsong here aren’t unique - I’ve seen the same patterns in other organisations, some of them faith-based, some of them not. Hence the term “founder’s syndrome”, which I’ve often heard used in NGO circles.
People are often burnt by founders suffering from Founder’s Syndrome - and the burn is even worse when it occurs within some kind of idealistic framework, ie in a human rights organisation or a church. There’s a real sense of disillusionment, of having been let down, and frustraton with hypocrisy.
I’d love to know whether there’s anything out there written on organisational change and dealing with founders!
August 2nd, 2007 at 3:20 pm
‘Maybe we need to pray that God “takes them to glory”?’
Some would call that witchcraft!
August 2nd, 2007 at 3:21 pm
can someone please tell me where I can find emblazoneds story that has produced the wonderful responses of compassion and support.
thanks
August 2nd, 2007 at 3:38 pm
‘Maybe we need to pray that God “takes them to glory”?’
Some would call that witchcraft!
Some?
I think most anyone who hasn’t taken leave of their senses would agree that a comment like that is retarded.
August 2nd, 2007 at 3:46 pm
****LUNCH @ Newport Arms - Sunday 12th August - 1pm ******
For those Signposters that would like to get to know each other a little better, f2f.
Indicate your interest on the Thread titled “Hillsongs: The Next Instalment”
August 2nd, 2007 at 6:11 pm
Founders syndrome - that’s really interesting. I can see that in non christian culture as mentioned. Holding on to a dream or vision that is so precious. It hurts the founder to let anyone else have influence or suggest change. Lobby groups trying to stamp out change as they try and hold onto the precious foundations, even if God moved on years ago.
I think that the main problem in abusive churches is, that love, mercy and grace, get left out of the equation, making the outcome unbalanced. The vision comes firstplace and the people second. I don’t think that is sound theology. If you can’t build or do the great thing without operating in love etc, then I don’t believe it is from God. (You know the clanging gong mentioned in corinthians). On the other hand some people are so easily offended that it’s hard for the good pastors/leaders to do anything. There is a growing multitude of walking wounded out there. Who will minister to these broken people. As Tanya points out in her book - the phone doesn’t ring, no one enquires after you, no-one visits to see that you are O.K. Just silence and the open arms of God. I spent three and a half years in that place.
I certainly don’t want to pray for the removal of the Houstons in the manner suggested. There is work that is God’s alone and not for us. I found myself praying along the lines this morning - that we are all so childish, myself included, in our attempts to be christlike. God is so wonderfully rich in grace and mercy toward us, that he doesn’t cast us off. Thank God for God.
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:14 pm
Janene wrote:
“I think that the main problem in abusive churches is, that love, mercy and grace, get left out of the equation, making the outcome unbalanced.”
Janene, that is exactly right. Even so, I don’t think anyone inside these organizations realizes that. I’ve said it before, but I honestly believe that if you said that to anyone in a church like Hillsong, they would deny it instantly. You really have to have been there, and then stepped outside to see it.
The thing that I am really struggling to understand is why so many of us are willing to throw away the freedom Christ won for us. I wrote something a few years ago about this (Freedom Forsaken), and I have to say that I still don’t get it. Why do so many Christians allow their churches to push them beyond God’s expectations for their lives?
I’m not pointing fingers here, because for ten years I did the same thing. I think that’s why it bothers me so much. All I can think is that it’s the frog in the pot syndrome.
Love, Deb
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:27 pm
I have thought about this at length also, wondering how I got myself into the state I ended up in.
One of our basic human needs, is be accepted as part of a group or tribe if you like. Anthropology, explains this need as do other human developement theories. We gain exceptance within the church tribe, we feel part of things, its feels good, do we want to throw that away by questioning the status quo. Most dont want to be excluded by the tribe, and it is very very understandable. Also a real sincerity of faith also can be a factor, I saw some warning signs early on, but thought “oh I must pray more”, “repent of my bad attitude” “serve more” “love more” etc etc instead of respectfully expecting and insisting that appropriate boundaries towards me be honoured by my brothers and sisters in Christ. When those boundaries were not respected, repeatedly, well in retrospect, I should have left long, long before I did. What drives us beyond what Christ requires? Sometimes our sinful tendancies warp our need for approval, we only need Christs approval after all, but we substitute mens approval instead. Perhaps we want to have ‘faith’ in what we can physically see, so idolarty - worshipping the creation (this can be ministry figures) instead of the creator can ensnare us and this is a very, very subtle process as per frog in pot. We can also fall into the trap of works, bet busy, get validated, work some more and in the process lose the beautiful simplicity of grace somewhere along the way as well as the notion of working from a place of rest. I am not pointing fingers here either, I fell into all of these traps in various measure. I pray I will never reliquish my freedom in Christ again.
The price Christ for it?? May I never be so foolish again.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:06 pm
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avb7 Says:
August 2nd, 2007 at 3:21 pm
can someone please tell me where I can find emblazoneds story that has produced the wonderful responses of compassion and support.
thanks
that was a genuine request………can anyone help me out.
August 3rd, 2007 at 12:23 am
avb7,
I think it’s at comment 9.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:16 am
Hi avb,
Yeah it was comment 9 only, I havent really told my full story in narrative here. I’m certainly not the world’s most suffering victim of Hillsong, I’d attribute that to some of the ex-pastors, in fact overall my time at Hillsong I’d say was ‘not too bad’.
It was more the after shocks when I prodded with a few questions that affected me more.